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I wont attempt any shots over 30 meters.

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Not sure if it is just me, But I feel I have to literally get up real close before I take a shot. Even with full stamina and a steady aim.. bang bang bang.. hit occasionally no kills, if feels like i have to go CQB in order to get any kills or I have to do the chicken run and chase then until they stand still. I am not sure what the issue is, but something does not 'feel' right to me currently and it kills the enjoyment of a potentially amazing milsim. I am just not enjoying the weapons at range at all.

 

I play a lot of PR and Arma and in those games i will often shoot at distance with kills no problem. It could be the amount of zoom in not enough 'for me' to want to even attempt most shots, i play at 2560x1440 and i cant see what am shooting at. I have some video clips of me shooting people stood still at 40 meters out.. nothing.. gets very frustrating, its like the game encourages CQ. Anybody else feel this? More zoom would make me want to take longer shots thats for sure.

 

Long engagements end up just being blind fire and randomly let rounds go.. nothing else as recoil kills it.

 

And feels like the recoil and sway is way to much people just fire as many rounds as they can hoping for a kill. Also the recoil on the saw... until bipod and prone nobody is really using it, recoil is so bad again you cannot see what you are shooting at.

 

Thoughts?

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I see where you're coming from here.

I think its a design choice on behalf of the developers to encourage group fire as opposed to extremely accurate individual fire. I also find it difficult to maintain accurate fire at range and find myself having to take a few shots at 200-300 meters.

However, if you are having trouble taking aimed shots at 40 meters while standing still I don't think the game is at fault.

Try working with a fire team and taking an aimed shot every few seconds. If your team is accurate you can decimate a section before they even return fire.

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I don't always attack, I like to defend while everyone else (at the moment_ rushes off to the next flag gets involved in lone wolf cluster f* and dies. Meaning I end up defending on my own.. i see enemy coming down hill.. i have to wait till they are close before even attempting to open to fire.. something is wrong. I play in 16AA a true milsim group in Arma.. I would have no problem suppressing with a saw.. I would take a squad of 4-5 enemy out easily. In Squad.. forget it, its easier to sneek up and use a pistol. Not sure why but its not gelling with me at the moment it feels restrictive and does not give me freedom to play as 'i feel' or expected it too. Even in PR i would open up way before they got anywhere near. (Just my thoughts)

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I don't have those issues. At all frankly. IF you play PR and Arma then this game should not present you with issue. Jack up your sensitivity if you are having issues in mouse control.

You have to use single fire. and you can't laser fire long range nor should you.

learn how to use mouse control :) Is all I can say.

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Nothing to do with mouse. And the weapons feel like i am holding them at arms reach with my arms straight.

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Actually any problems I have faced have been at closer ranges putting10-15 plus shots in people and they do not die. But I do understand this is "PRE ALPHA" most games made by large developers you never see the light of day of any alpha stage let alone pre alpha. Shoot battlefield for example is released with dozens of dozens of bugs and issues always.

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Well lucky for the players against you. Why do you insist on creating a thread based on a point you have already made in another... PRE ALPHA.

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It's the heavy weapon sway currently..I think the should tone that a little bit down.

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It's the heavy weapon sway currently..I think the should tone that a little bit down.

Agreed.

 

Weapon sway is making these shots incredibly difficult. At range, full auto is more effective currently in my opinion. Given the sway, it is more cost effective to get as many rounds down range while your cursor is over your enemy. Firing a single round then having to recover from the recoil and place another shot results in a much lower DPS.

 

Though back on the OP's topic. The reason people are forced into CQC and shy from firing at upwards of 30m is simply to them not having the confidence to actually kill the enemy. With the current weapon handling, the odds of the enemy getting hit once and bolting out of your line of sight is highly more probable than you actually landing the takedown. Simple as that. 

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Agreed.

 

Weapon sway is making these shots incredibly difficult. At range, full auto is more effective currently in my opinion. Given the sway, it is more cost effective to get as many rounds down range while your cursor is over your enemy. Firing a single round then having to recover from the recoil and place another shot results in a much lower DPS.

 

Though back on the OP's topic. The reason people are forced into CQC and shy from firing at upwards of 30m is simply to them not having the confidence to actually kill the enemy. With the current weapon handling, the odds of the enemy getting hit once and bolting out of your line of sight is highly more probable than you actually landing the takedown. Simple as that. 

*in your opinion*

You are not supposed to be able to just fire all day easily, You need stamina, and you need to focus your shots (you do, I just handle the recoil and take my shots when I need to)

I play, and many on the other team have no issues shooting long range and being anything but lethal.

if you see spam firing to be your more effective play then so be it,

However I have no issue handling recoil and would hate to be coddled to in terms of recoil. In some situation you need to full auto, in other situations Single fire is extremely deadly and is used to great effectiveness. By both myself and hundreds of enemy players ;) Learn when to use them,

it also bring up the point about the lack of wounding mechanics. Right now you hit someone 3 times they still 100% effective, So why shoot and reveal your position when it gives you NO benefit? The correct way to fix the issue is NOT redesigning recoil, rather adding in the other mechanics in wounding and suppression...

Should we also adjust stamina duration and run speed "cuz the maps are too big and you have to sprint too much"? no that is stupid. Wait for vehicles to be added THEN discuss those mechanics.

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*in your opinion*

You are not supposed to be able to just fire all day easily, You need stamina, and you need to focus your shots (you do, I just handle the recoil and take my shots when I need to)

I play, and many on the other team have no issues shooting long range and being anything but lethal.

if you see spam firing to be your more effective play then so be it,

However I have no issue handling recoil and would hate to be coddled to in terms of recoil. In some situation you need to full auto, in other situations Single fire is extremely deadly and is used to great effectiveness. By both myself and hundreds of enemy players ;) Learn when to use them,

it also bring up the point about the lack of wounding mechanics. Right now you hit someone 3 times they still 100% effective, So why shoot and reveal your position when it gives you NO benefit? The correct way to fix the issue is NOT redesigning recoil, rather adding in the other mechanics in wounding and suppression...

Should we also adjust stamina duration and run speed "cuz the maps are too big and you have to sprint too much"? no that is stupid. Wait for vehicles to be added THEN discuss those mechanics.

 

I must admit, that was on of the most condescending posts on this forum since the CPA. 

 

The point being made is not that it is impossible to be accurate at longer ranges due to sway, and spraying is consequently the work around. Instead, it is the fact that whilst a disdainful recoil handling professional can easily control his weapon with selective shots, it is currently easier and more effective to control fully automatic bursts at most longer ranges. In other terms, the current system strongly favors Mass per Second over Rounds per Hit. 

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I must admit, that was on of the most condescending posts on this forum since the CPA. 

 

The point being made is not that it is impossible to be accurate at longer ranges due to sway, and spraying is consequently the work around. Instead, it is the fact that whilst a disdainful recoil handling professional can easily control his weapon with selective shots, it is currently easier and more effective to control fully automatic bursts at most longer ranges. In other terms, the current system strongly favors Mass per Second over Rounds per Hit. 

I would agree that firing full auto at (ineffective ranges) tends to give better results than single tapping shots, but I think that is because we have a limited feedback system. We can only see Kill vs Still alive, so every wounding shot is perceived as a fail, Plus once fobs and rallys are not spamable, then the use of ammo becomes more important, and yes you can dump 2 mags at a long range target to get that kill, but really that just makes you worse off long term.

A guy takes a round in the chest (single shot) and instead of needing a medic or ducking behind cover he stands right back up 180 spins and starts spraying at you. I think that specifically is where these issues are most felt. IF that player got suppression for being shot at AND taking a shot to the chest, AND he needed medical treatment AND he had wounding affects to combat like MORE sway and things (since he is now in a damaged state) then I think the value of accurate fire becomes much more felt.

Right now all combat is short term. Life is short term, ammo is short term, iby lengthoning these values with more value in a single ticket life, then suddenly wounding/medics/ammo and other things become much more respected rather than just "ill just suicide re spawn to get to the flag faster"

:)

Its honestly the same issue INS has, in a limited damage system (like 0 or 1, lack of damage resolution) then ROF is the only things that matters, accuracy doesn't matter and you just spray at the enemy. Right now combat is 0-1 and what we need is 0-4 doubling the resolution :)

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I would agree that firing full auto at (ineffective ranges) tends to give better results than single tapping shots, but I think that is because we have a limited feedback system. We can only see Kill vs Still alive, so every wounding shot is perceived as a fail, Plus once fobs and rallys are not spamable, then the use of ammo becomes more important, and yes you can dump 2 mags at a long range target to get that kill, but really that just makes you worse off long term.

A guy takes a round in the chest (single shot) and instead of needing a medic or ducking behind cover he stands right back up 180 spins and starts spraying at you. I think that specifically is where these issues are most felt. IF that player got suppression for being shot at AND taking a shot to the chest, AND he needed medical treatment AND he had wounding affects to combat like MORE sway and things (since he is now in a damaged state) then I think the value of accurate fire becomes much more felt.

Right now all combat is short term. Life is short term, ammo is short term, iby lengthoning these values with more value in a single ticket life, then suddenly wounding/medics/ammo and other things become much more respected rather than just "ill just suicide re spawn to get to the flag faster"

:)

Its honestly the same issue INS has, in a limited damage system (like 0 or 1, lack of damage resolution) then ROF is the only things that matters, accuracy doesn't matter and you just spray at the enemy. Right now combat is 0-1 and what we need is 0-4 doubling the resolution :)

 

Couldn't be more right with the Insurgency analogy. 

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Yeah I see where you are coming from I think it's a mix between the high weapon sway + very bad ADS Zoom levels (high ads fov) even when you hold breath and go "focus"

 

In PR I could feel the same way that the 90 FOV when aiming was a bit too zoomed out, but I could still take precise and accurate shots because of no sway,  but since squad has now both,  it makes it kinda weird and difficult to pull of. 

 

In ARMA that is no problem because ARMA has a low FOV default, and also have a pretty good "Focus" zoom when aiming/looking to sort of compensate for the lack of focusing your eyes can do irl since its after all a video game with pixels.

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Well lucky for the players against you. Why do you insist on creating a thread based on a point you have already made in another... PRE ALPHA.

 

 

As I feel it needed its own topic rather than a point buried in another topic ok with you?

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It is hard to argue with the OP. If he was wrong you would see somebody using the acog. I have tried the acog but frankly it is currently a waste of time to pull an acog kit. I think everyone here is well aware of the fact that this is PRE-ALPHA. I don't expect it to be perfect however the point of these discussions is to come up with a possible solution in the FUTURE. Not for everyone to start posting that this is PRE-ALPHA blah blah blah and bashing the poster for identifying a valid fault.

 

The problem IMO with the current system is this. Yes long range engagements are extremely difficult in game. And yes I know they are difficult in real life however marines qualify to 500 yards with iron sights in the sitting, standing, kneeling, and prone positions. So it isn't impossible in real life and frankly for a trained infantry man shouldn't be that difficult. The bottom line is there are very little long range engagements going on at the moment in game for a reason. Currently CQB dominates the playing field. Now don't get me wrong I was never in the armed forces so I can't explain all of this directly. However I own many weapons and can easily fire out to 100 yards with iron sights from the standing position without missing the paper in 30 rounds. anything beyond that and my poor eyesight becomes an issue. However give me an eotech or aimpoint and now I can tell you what part of the target I am shooting at 100 yards. Give me a low power scope such as an acog and I can very very easily shoot at 100 yards. This is all with no weapon resting in the standing position. I haven't shot more than 100 yards in this situation so I can't comment on that.

 

I am sure the devs are well aware of this and many mechanics are coming down the line to change this. They have already hinted/discussed multiple mechanics that will change the way the game plays drastically.

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I agree. I shoot at people far away but with no intent of killing them, only to suppress. 

that is kinda the point with iron sights at long range, Your not supposed to just laser eye zoom in and take them out with only 2 shots, You are supposed to shoot at them with consistency and hopefully take them out.

I also point out that that range of shots is supposed to be done with an acog, however since acogs are bad/rough right now people are trying to use iron sights at ranges they really are not supposed (and are not going) to be the most effective at.

That isn't the fault of the zooming mechanics, rather the fault of the optics for being non-viable.

I also personally have no issue using iron sights at long range and have been extremely successful at suppressing, killing, pushing, and deterring enemy movements. Plus we don't even have bipods (if they are going to be added to basic guns) NOR do we have prone (which is the best position (game play wise) to shoot long range)

There are threads talking about many many changes to optics so hopefully when that is released it will fix the issue (as that is the core of where the issue is).

Also once maps get a little bigger with vehicles this will all change as well.

I mean look at PR I'm sure people complained about the lack of zoom when it was first out too lol But then again it isn't an issue ;) since optics ARE good.

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If they could transplant Insurgency's Weapon mechanic's into Squad and add Bullet drop + sway they'd be on to a winner.

 

The only way I can effectively hit anyone at range in Squad is with the ACOG'd M4 or by dropping Grenades near them, otherwise the hit reg and getting accurate shot's does feel a bit iffy.

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I spent some time with the ACOG to see if i could get the hang of it. I started to. Feels great to knock insurgents in the dome from range where they can't even see you with their little AK irons sitting inside their sandbag bunkers.

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As long as they dont dumb down the game, this game is about realism and I hope they keep it as realistic as possible. Although I do think that the zoom when ADS could be a little stronger - Dont want people sniping with iron sights from 400M away

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The game needs to allow players to fire accurately in controlled pairs, like they train soldiers in the Army to do. I'm also wondering if the devs plan to change the M4 to have burst fire, rather than fully automatic.

 

For anyone that doesn't know what controlled pairs are, here's a video I found demonstrating it.

 

(Not sure how to embed the Youtube clip, sorry)

https://youtu.be/QfdmB03GpYw

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