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BadVlad

V10 weapon muzzle control

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I think having this weird horizontal&vertical locked sensitivity (horizontal speed much higher than vertical) makes our recoil control / aim really bad. I could not find a solution to make them both the same speed and it is starting to get annoying. Of course I got used to it, but it would be nice to try the game without this "feature".

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Lets get something straight: Im NOT SAYING TO GO BACK TO V9, I said was that V9 was better than V10 in some particular areas, please stop throwing it out as if V9 and V10 are the two options and you have to pick one, Im saying that V10 badly needs adjustment. For example the LMG class was actually suppression and support in V9, an ACOG could actually hit things consistently at 50-200 yards, being prone actually helped you, slight movement while firing didnt make you throw the gun around all over the place etc etc.

 

@MADsquirrel and @Enders1  Wait wait wait, are you guys telling me that this is the accuracy and recoil management you guys had in the army? A little girl with ironsights could out-shoot you on her first time out apparently. I dont know what else to say here, just lol.

Edited by BadVlad

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On 2/5/2018 at 11:18 PM, BadVlad said:

Jellyswim interestingly enough one of the reasons I dont like V10 gun handling is because I shoot in real life and own quite a few guns you find in the game, even have a scoped RPK! What I saw with the intermediate cartridge rifles in V10 is what you would expect from a 308 AR in real life, interestingly enough we have about right semi-auto ROF you would get with one because you have to realign that much after every shot. And even then, a big enough brake and a big enough guy and

thats a 308^^^

this is an AR15

look at the target at the end.

You see the thing about those videos is they're both shooting at close range. The point of the recoil overhaul was to make firing at long range take more precision and skill. Regardless of how little recoil you feel when firing full auto, you wont be able to hit anything accurately past 50 or so meters by just spraying like that. Maybe the recoil in game is a little extenuated, but nonetheless, V9 was very unrealistic in the sense that sight alignment and compensation were both near instant. The V10 system is meant to make that a little less prevalent and since there's no way to convey human reaction to recoil in a videogame, I think this system is the right approach.

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2 hours ago, yesthrway said:

I think having this weird horizontal&vertical locked sensitivity (horizontal speed much higher than vertical) makes our recoil control / aim really bad. I could not find a solution to make them both the same speed and it is starting to get annoying. Of course I got used to it, but it would be nice to try the game without this "feature".


Yeah this is definitely a valid issue. If they want to affect the way people aim and look around in general, then having a vertical and horizontal turn speed limit similiar to vehicle turrets would be better.

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jellyswim the point of the video was to show how controllable those rifles can be even with ridiculous full auto. People seem to think that an M4/AR has recoil similar to a 308 battle rifle, they think its realistic, not sure why that is but I have some theories.

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1 hour ago, BadVlad said:

Lets get something straight: Im NOT SAYING TO GO BACK TO V9, I said was that V9 was better than V10 in some particular areas, please stop throwing it out as if V9 and V10 are the two options and you have to pick one, Im saying that V10 badly needs adjustment. For example the LMG class was actually suppression and support in V9, an ACOG could actually hit things consistently at 50-200 yards, being prone actually helped you, slight movement while firing didnt make you throw the gun around all over the place etc etc.

 

@MADsquirrel and @Enders1  Wait wait wait, are you guys telling me that this is the accuracy and recoil management you guys had in the army? A little girl with ironsights could out-shoot you on her first time out apparently. I dont know what else to say here, just lol.

 

Hm I think you missunderstood.

I quote the imortant part here:

 

Because in a real firefight you have such an insane amount of stress that it will always influence your accuracy and even your gun handeling, you will often be unable to go into a proper fireing stance because of the terrain and you carry at least 15kg extra arround with you sometimes for hours.

 

Everyone can fire a rifle accurate at the range.

Obviously on the range every soldier will do good but on a real mission having real combat is no comparison.

 

Maybe videos are better to understand.

Compare this:

 

to this:

 

to this:

 

 

In case you miss my point. 

In the first vid you see how soldiers do pretty much everything as wrong as they can in a real stress situation and forget everything they learned.

In the second vid you see how they are supposed to user their weapon.

In the third vid some random gun fanatic has some fun at the range.

 

 

TL;DR

Having shooting range like accuracy in a realistic wargame is BAD because it simply is unrealistc to shoot as well in combat as on the range.

 

 

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MADsquirrel I dont know if you know this but THERE IS ALREADY SUPPRESSION IN THE GAME, when you are being shot at there is already a very strong suppression effect built into the game, so that whole adrenaline panic tunnel vision is already there and is a separate thing from the issue I brought up.

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7 hours ago, BadVlad said:

jellyswim the point of the video was to show how controllable those rifles can be even with ridiculous full auto. People seem to think that an M4/AR has recoil similar to a 308 battle rifle, they think its realistic, not sure why that is but I have some theories.

The hard truth is that full auto pretty much sucks. The constant sputter of recoil makes aiming impossible. With practice, you can mag dump a decent group by holding the rifle as steady as possible, but that's really all you can do until 2 seconds later your ammo's all gone. That's assuming you are shooting at a static target...

 

That's why v10's abstraction is an improvement. Now, panic spray n pray will always get you killed in close range engagements. Discipline and aiming is much more important. Cooler heads will have advantage. These are all good things.

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Good-Try Greg training and practice, I use pistols as an example, most people when they first start shooting a pistol can barely hit a target, then they can hit a target but the grouping is all over, then they can hit a target within a few inches of where they are aiming, then they can increase their rate of fire while keeping that accuracy, there is a progression in the skill, a good pistol shooter will unload the magazine very quickly and hit very close to what he is aiming at, well, same goes for rifles.

 

This is one of my old favorites

 

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4 hours ago, Good-Try Greg said:

The hard truth is that full auto pretty much sucks. The constant sputter of recoil makes aiming impossible. With practice, you can mag dump a decent group by holding the rifle as steady as possible, but that's really all you can do until 2 seconds later your ammo's all gone. That's assuming you are shooting at a static target...

 

That's why v10's abstraction is an improvement. Now, panic spray n pray will always get you killed in close range engagements. Discipline and aiming is much more important. Cooler heads will have advantage. These are all good things.

In mid range i can easy aim in full...just with little burst more time...if u want use completaly full auto at 50 meters with m4a1 or ak74, simple u need change weap and use a bipod weap.

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It's a skill, and so it takes skill to use full auto in Squad. The game's not going to aim for you, why should it handle recoil for you?

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17 hours ago, BadVlad said:

Lets get something straight: Im NOT SAYING TO GO BACK TO V9, I said was that V9 was better than V10 in some particular areas, please stop throwing it out as if V9 and V10 are the two options and you have to pick one, Im saying that V10 badly needs adjustment. For example the LMG class was actually suppression and support in V9, an ACOG could actually hit things consistently at 50-200 yards, being prone actually helped you, slight movement while firing didnt make you throw the gun around all over the place etc etc.

 

@MADsquirrel and @Enders1  Wait wait wait, are you guys telling me that this is the accuracy and recoil management you guys had in the army? A little girl with ironsights could out-shoot you on her first time out apparently. I dont know what else to say here, just lol.

take that little girl, load her up with a shit load combat gear,body armor, helmet. fly her over to Afghanistan. give her an m4 that's been used hard and beat up for the last 20 years. send her squad out in the mountains to patrol for 24 hours on foot. climbing up and down hills all day. then be sure she has insufficient water and food. then have targets suddenly pop out of no where and start shooting at her and trying to kill her. i don't think you will have that same level of marksman ship that you saw on the shooting range.

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38 minutes ago, Jiggerlube said:

out in the mountains to patrol for 24 hours on foot. i don't think you will have that same level of marksman ship that you saw on the shooting range.

Authenticity with gunplay I think is always very subjective. But jiggerlube point is valid and I agree with the sentiment. 

 

IMO shaping authentic behaviour trumps ultimate realism when it comes to weapon accuracy etc, but here's an angle to explain things with authenticity in mind.

 

FPS Players seem to want to assume that they are roleplaying as fresh soldiers spawning into the world like they have just woke up from a good rest, and that they have had the best Navy seals training, the best rifle and ammunition money can buy, etc.

 

Not taking into fact that even with a 2 week combat rotation, battle fatigue is a thing...the Long grueling infantry patrols and the strain and fatigue that puts on even the most athletic types, the weapon degredation due to environmental conditions like sand,rain,mud,etc and the big one - fear of death, are all very hard things to come into a military FPS that is aiming for authentic player behaviour. 

 

It's hard to find that balance in a military FPS, where you want the Player to feel like his character is agile and mobile, but at the same time not superhuman 360noscope, as that will breed unauthentic behavior. If every player can behave like a supersoldier, there's much less desire to act authentic, ie: moving as a cohesive section, using fire and manuver tactics, reoging after an engagement, etc.

 

BadVlad you raise some valid points and like I said, gunplay is a very subjective thing. To me, the Squad characters still act like superhuman Android mutants with super powers, both in their movement abilities and their shooting abilities. I think a videogame example that had a more authentic (albeit extremely clunky & incomplete) interpretation of infantry mobility and shooting was OFP.

But I understand compromises must be made in order to give the player a sense of mobility.

 

However, one thing I think you are completely wrong is v9 suppression, esp regarding support weapons. I don't think v9 OR v10 has remotely useful suppression, although v10 is a little improved. My basic understanding of a modern Firefight does imply sustaining a higher volume of fire on the enemy positions than you are receiving, with the idea that if you can gain more accurate sustained suppression than you receive, you will be able to close distance and kill/capture the enemy. In Squad this is rarely the case for a number of reasons, but most importantly is a videogame cannot possibly ever convey the fear of death that real weapon systems instill when being fired towards a person. So getting that authentic player behaviour either requires roleplay (not likely) or some systems to promote a more authentic reaction.

 

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I have never fired IRL (like BadVlad), but I think it takes the right posture, that many muscles of the body have to work to reduce the recoil of the weapon. With v10 you have to control much more the mouse to shoot and hit the target ... a bit like in reality to force on particular muscles to control the weapon. And I really like this. It is one of the very few fps where you feel the "physicality" and the weight of the weapon.

Edited by Tmac

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@Jiggerlube  we do have a stamina system in the game that simulates tiredness to some extent, I suppose you could advocate for another bar like "exhaustion" or for your stamina bar to slowly become depleted permanently the longer you run around but: that would only punish those that survive long enough to cover lots of distance so I dont believe that would improve a game like Squad. Survival games tend to have systems like that to add to the survival element of the game but thats a different sort of game. Setting your default marksmanship in a game like Squad to "tired overloaded guy" doesnt seem like an improvement to me, and on top of that a little Taliban fighter with an AK and some mags would and should have a major advantage in that system since he has no armor or other gear to deal with, his run speed would be higher and his stamina bar would last longer but again: would that improve the game?

 

@fuzzhead I generally agree with you and I am one of the guys that prefer the "ideal scenario" where you are a fresh soldier with good marksmanship skills, I prefer it simply because its a tactical shooter and not a survival game. Could you add more elements to make it more realistic? Sure, you could even add a random exhaustion level at spawn. Would it improve the game though? I dont believe it would. We have a stamina bar that limits your ability to run around non-stop and forces you to plan your movements, in my opinion that is enough. We dont need to drink water periodically or take craps either buts thats not a bad thing is it?


@Good-Try Greg never said anything about the game aiming for you, there is a difference between aim and recoil management, there are games that will put you on-target when you mouse close enough to target but Squad didnt and doesnt have that, what Squad did have are avatars that could handle a rifle and what Squad has now are avatars that limpwrist a rifle. Once again, having the game aim for you or aim assist are not the same as having bad gun handling built into the game.

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It's no different than aim assist. With full automatic fire, handling recoil is as important as aiming.

 

Hell, I would argue the two are mutually exclusive - you can aim, you can mag dump, but you can't do both effectively at the same time. That's why short controlled bursts are important, so you can take time in between shots to adjust your aim. If you trivialize recoil, then 'spray n pray' strategies become really powerful due to the ease of aiming.

 

I'm really trying not to quibble too much about 'realism' though, what's great about these kinds of game rules is that give the combat more depth. When a player gets surprised and starts dumping rounds recklessly, should they be shooting perfect groups because they're avatar's supposed to be some kind of unflappable badass? Or should they have to actually demonstrate that cool headedness and skill for themselves. I think the latter is a much more interesting way of doing it.

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Good-Try Greg lets separate the two: handling the recoil and handling EXCESSIVE  recoil, the excessive and random recoil comes from bad weapon handling aka it is BUILT IN when it comes to games! You can adjust your mouse, practice and adjust your play style to COMPENSATE for it but you can not improve it because it is built into the game. The game sais "you are limpwristing the pistol" and now you, as a player, have to learn to get kills within that poor pistol marksmanship <--- just an example, pistols actually do pretty well in Squad V10. In real life you can improve your stance, your grip, your trigger control etc and, as a result,  your base muzzle control becomes better leaving you with a much more controllable rifle that you can bring and keep on-target easier, shoot accurately faster and further and so on. The developers of a game like Squad have two options: they can either pick and set your "base" marksmanship level or they can include a "level up" system where your marksmanship starts out poor and improves over time. My complaint comes down to the idea that the "base" marksmanship level we have in Squad V10 is bad.

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The base marksmanship level is bad, so that you have room to improve. At the same time there is an element of randomness, so that even when you master the shooting mechanics new players still have a pretty good chance against you. Unlike V9. Since aiming and pulling the trigger is now a more even playing field it also extends the skill ceiling towards using the environment, intersquad positioning and combined arms rather than boiling down to one thing: aim.
To be honest, I think the low speed of bullets in V10 contributes to your impression. I am not sure whether they actually slowed down bullets or increased bullet drop, but it feels like it takes way too long to get "feedback" after you shoot. IE whether you hit or not. Definitely adds a layer of complexity beyond leading your target, as the learning curve for the recoil is also affected by this. Instead of getting seeing where your bullets go like in V9, you're forced to fire again before you can confirm anything.
It's easy to see the intent behind this, but I think it'd be better achieved with more sight misalignment, so that you are forced to shoot without the certainty of your sights not lying to you, rather than having to wait for the bullet to snail over to the target.

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Peerun there are a few ways you can do a base level, the easiest route many games take is just to make bullets fly with a crazy random spread out of weapons, you have your sights right on target, pull the trigger and the bullet goes to the left as if the barrel is damaged, I personally hate that. Squad does it in the 2nd way with the sight drift and recoil, this is very good because it allows for that very accurate first shot since the bullet doesnt trail off randomly, but, it can still be bad if overdone. If it is overdone then in semi you will have too much jump after that first shot which means the full auto will be all over the place, you got to fine-tune it. I believe it needs to be tuned down and the recoil itself should be more consistent, your muzzle brake tends to push the rifle in the same direction by the same amount with every shot, a muzzle brake that pulls your rifle right and down wouldnt suddenly switch and start pulling the rifle left and up, if that happens you are the one doing it by trying to compensate for the muzzle device and overdoing it but if it happens in the game by default then this "overcompensation" is built in. Lets say you are shooting a pistol at a target aiming at the center and your first shot hits the left side of the target but then your 2nd shot hits the right side, this doesnt mean the pistol isnt straight or your sights are off, it means you pulled the muzzle to the left on the first shot while squeezing the trigger and then tried to compensate for it, thinking the pistol shoots to the left, and hit right instead.

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On 2/9/2018 at 4:22 PM, BadVlad said:

jellyswim the point of the video was to show how controllable those rifles can be even with ridiculous full auto. People seem to think that an M4/AR has recoil similar to a 308 battle rifle, they think its realistic, not sure why that is but I have some theories.

I understand the point of the videos. My point is that while the recoil mechanics may be a little too much, its still an upgrade to make firefights more realistic in the sense that you can't accurately spam-fire your weapon and land every hit. Sure you might be able to do that irl on a firing range at 10m, but a firefight is a different story.

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On 2/9/2018 at 4:30 PM, BadVlad said:

Lets get something straight: Im NOT SAYING TO GO BACK TO V9, I said was that V9 was better than V10 in some particular areas, please stop throwing it out as if V9 and V10 are the two options and you have to pick one, Im saying that V10 badly needs adjustment. For example the LMG class was actually suppression and support in V9, an ACOG could actually hit things consistently at 50-200 yards, being prone actually helped you, slight movement while firing didnt make you throw the gun around all over the place etc etc.

 

@MADsquirrel and @Enders1  Wait wait wait, are you guys telling me that this is the accuracy and recoil management you guys had in the army? A little girl with ironsights could out-shoot you on her first time out apparently. I dont know what else to say here, just lol.

I agree with you whole-heartedly. People act like white-knights when it comes to any kind of criticism. v10 shooting mechanics are ridiculously horrible. You can still put emphasis on teamwork and positioning without making individual shooting skill irrelevant. 

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I donno about any of this  but as a vet ex 11b of Iraq and Afghanistan I can chime in. I'd have to say squad devs got it pretty spot on...these guys are not fireing at a range in there gym shorts sipping ice tea...this is to mimic fireing in combat situations. Carrying 100lb of kit going from full Sprint to head eating dirt to move again sucking wind and getting shit on. You ever get so tired your 7 and a half pound m4 felt like a sack of potatoes and you had to arch your back just to raise it? 

 

Anyway I think this game simulates combat pretty well is what I'm saying..it is a game all in all and it's made to be played a certain way. If people are running around shooting like lemonade sipping range fobbits it will turn into cod...just my thoughts if you want to run around full Sprint shooting Lazer beams at people and getting 20-5 k/D's please...this game isn't for you... 

 

Edited by ♠DEG♠

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11 hours ago, BadVlad said:

Good-Try Greg lets separate the two: handling the recoil and handling EXCESSIVE  recoil, the excessive and random recoil comes from bad weapon handling aka it is BUILT IN when it comes to games! You can adjust your mouse, practice and adjust your play style to COMPENSATE for it but you can not improve it because it is built into the game. The game sais "you are limpwristing the pistol" and now you, as a player, have to learn to get kills within that poor pistol marksmanship <--- just an example, pistols actually do pretty well in Squad V10. In real life you can improve your stance, your grip, your trigger control etc and, as a result,  your base muzzle control becomes better leaving you with a much more controllable rifle that you can bring and keep on-target easier, shoot accurately faster and further and so on. The developers of a game like Squad have two options: they can either pick and set your "base" marksmanship level or they can include a "level up" system where your marksmanship starts out poor and improves over time. My complaint comes down to the idea that the "base" marksmanship level we have in Squad V10 is bad.

It's hard to figure out what you're saying here but it sounds like you think infantry are bad in v10? If anything rifles still too powerful at the moment.

 

I think it's important to keep the average infantryman humble, or he'll get it in his head that, as long as he never misses, he can go anywhere and kill whatever he sees. And then teamwork starts to fall apart.

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On 2/9/2018 at 11:37 PM, MADsquirrel said:

Everyone can fire a rifle accurate at the range.

Obviously on the range every soldier will do good but on a real mission having real combat is no comparison.

 

This. 

 

You can be the best Marksmen at the range, but an extremely poor combat shooter. You will never know until you are in combat. 

 

I love the new shooting mechanics. Doesn't seem to stop people blowing my head off every time I pop it out, so I would say it hasn't made that much difference to longer range engagements. 

Edited by Roble

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