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BadVlad

V10 weapon muzzle control

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Hey guys, love the game, long time player with over 1500 hours, generally love V10 so far BUT the new muzzle control is just ... terrible. At first I couldnt figure out what the problem was, I used to average over 20 kills per game and was very good at hitting at distance, then in V10 I was consistently missing people that were just 50 yards away and should have been an easy shot! I played a dozen matches completely dumbfounded and then I went to the range in the game, took out the M4 which is supposed to be the least recoil and muzzle rise and fired it in semi-auto at a wall only 50 yards away, what I saw made my jaw drop, the muzzle rise and sideways movement with every shot are massive and inconsistent, sometimes your gun jumps right, sometimes left, jumps different distances, your character makes barely any effort to stabilize the muzzle and no effort at all to put the gun back on target after every shot, so, after just two shots (maybe even just one depending on distance to target) you are shooting at the sky.

 

And that was just the M4, you can imagine what it looks like when you pick up guns with heavier recoil! I understand this happening in full auto while firing a SAW or an RPK but in semi on an M4 or an AK74 this is ridiculous. I shoot in real life and own many of the guns you see in the game and I can tell you that the muzzle control that your character has in V10 is similar to someone who has barely any if not 0 experience shooting a rifle, like if you gave a 16 year old an AR for the first time and told them to shoot at a target you get basically what I saw in game. Squad always had the sight movement (sway) and even though I thought it was a bit much in certain situations it was still realistic, you just had to keep your stamina up and hold your breath for the shots and you got good accuracy and stability like a trained shooter would, what you get now is a guy that puts a hole in the ceiling when trying to doubletap a target! It gets even funnier when you try to fire a SAW standing up, sometimes the dot comes back to the height where it started, sometimes it stays where it stopped, its a mess, almost as if someone wrote a script that kicks the barrel around randomly and it lands where it lands.

 

It is so bad that I made a forum account to bring it up, seriously guys go to the range and try different guns at a wall 50 yards away, try it in semi, try doubletapping, watch what happens to the muzzle, those of you that shoot will instantly know, the rest of you go watch some videos on youtube of professionals shooting those guns and compare. Fun thing to do: take different guns and try to do rapid semi-auto grouping at 25 yards, you are going to laugh.

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Im not sure, but i think some people have opposite experiences. It might just be something we have to get used too. My aiming have improved slightly, but need 100-200 more hours in V10 to confirm anything.

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Thats funny because its far closer to RO2 now which but many standards has some of the best gunplay and weapons control in gaming and I keep praising it in game and everyone agrees.

 

I think you are just use to how it was, maybe time to retrain yourself for what is by all accounts is far better gunplay.

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v76 not exactly, I explained in the original post what experiments I did and I recommended that you try it for yourself, I compared the results to what I had experienced before V10 and what I see in real life out of those guns. Yeah it is a game and its not real life and you cant make it exact and all that but seriously the muzzle behavior is ridiculous to the point of being funny at times. If someone shot like that in semi-auto at the range I would be spending a few hours sitting down with them and teaching them the basics because they obviously dont know any. Maybe some people like it, I dont know how they could, Id imagine some people think their aiming is better now because people cant hit them for crap from a distance so it turns into a CQB spray and pray, where they both can get lucky because with the muzzle jumping around like that its a form of a bullet lottery more than skill or, as an alternative, they camp and shoot people while prone and think its awesome because those guys have no chance in hell of hitting them with any sort of return fire...

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Stamina management is more important than ever, try maintain atleast 60% stamina, so your sway isn't too high. Instead of engaging targets while you're standing, crouch and then fire. Keep standing and firing to close engagements and crouch for medium range.

Shooting has changes, only way to get used to it, is by playing the game and learning the new mechanics.

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Dubs Im sorry but are you guys slow or stupid? Go to the range, full stamina, you can even go prone and hold your breath and see what the muzzle does. Yes I can practice, change the way I play and get used to the terrible accuracy and muzzle control that we now have but I would rather have it fixed instead.

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I have +- same amount of time as you BadVlad and for me its now much better than in previous version. Previous versions was much like semiassitance but now control is much more in players hands.  

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You cant muscle memory it because its slightly different from situation to situation so every time you have to more focus and control where you aim like you described. I feel like in prev version virtual actor itself slightly help to aim back. Now in v10 it feels much stricter and player itself have to take care about it. I dont know but when I shoot irl and I stop focus and shoot faster its just fly everywhere but not on target :D iam terrible shooter. So this improvement is for me ingame much believable. v10 punish players a lot and drastically. Its brutal now. You know previously i had around 5 kills per round ? Now i several times get over 20 and i was just ironsight rifleman. I saw how guys who was great till now are now terrible in game. And people who used to play carefully, slowly and had less kills now are excellent players and are very valuable. And muzzle change is one reason of it. But i believe that its just change behaviors and shooters like you will be back on shine soon. 

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13 minutes ago, BadVlad said:

Dubs Im sorry but are you guys slow or stupid? Go to the range, full stamina, you can even go prone and hold your breath and see what the muzzle does. Yes I can practice, change the way I play and get used to the terrible accuracy and muzzle control that we now have but I would rather have it fixed instead.

Shooting mechanics have changed, and people don't like change after playing the same mechanics for a long time, which is understandable. The new shooting is harder and has a steep learning curve compared to v9. There's no point judging something without giving it time and you playing around with it a bit.

Went to the range just now, recorded a quick clip. It's not too bad, just something to practice and get used to. Repetition is what improves a persons ability. That applies to everything you want to get used to or improve at.


I know you're new to the forums and are probably unaware of the rules on forums, so I wont be all Mr angry moderator. Have a quick read over the rules for future reference so you don't end up getting in trouble.
http://forums.joinsquad.com/announcement/11-forum-rules/

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We don t want laser gun. So, v10 gunplay is perfect. Difficult and satisfying now.

The Devs will not change the gunplay. It is definitive. You can always change game if you can not do more than 20 kills....Op starter...OMG

 

 

 

 

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I think there are a number of different philosophies of how weapon handling/recoil should be simulated "realistically" in a game, and it's important to identify what it is you want out of the game when suggesting the weapon handling in a game isn't "realistic" or needs to be changed - kind of similar to the discussions around suppression.

 

Should the mechanics of the game result in the character automatically having the same level of control of the weapon as an experienced shooter in real life, with little to no input from the player?

Should the game be designed so an experienced player actively controlling the weapon is able to achieve similar in-game control and accuracy as an experienced shooter in real life - or the accuracy typical of a trained soldier in a real-life combat situation?

 

If your philosophy of how realistic weapon handling should be simulated in-game is fundamentally different to that of the devs, the shooting mechanics of the game will probably never be to your satisfaction and it might not be worth complaining about.

I think Squad is probably aiming to have it so experienced players can achieve similar accuracy to that of soldiers in combat - If you're pretty new to the V10 firing mechanics (I think we all are), maybe you should give it another 50 hours of game time and reassess how your in-game accuracy compares to what you think soldiers typically achieve in combat.

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Dubs ok, now try to do the same thing and double tap. I never said the first shot isnt accurate, I said the MUZZLE CONTROL is terrible meaning that after that first shot your muzzle jumps too much and somewhat randomly and since it usually takes more than one shot to kill someone... Essentially what the developers did is take away the major advantage of using semi-auto over full auto, that control you get by shooting semi isnt there anymore after the first shot and you have to slow down your semi-auto ROF big time just to get a 2nd hit past 50 yards. The developers said they arent giving scopes to everyone because they didnt want the game to become campy but by doing this that is exactly what they did and you can already see it happening, a person in prone with a scope or a bipod is basically the sniper now because you can barely hit them while upright and you cant pin them down with fast semi-auto fire, Im generalizing here because you might hit them with that first shot but you probably wont and they probably will hit you. On the other end of the spectrum it shortens the engagement distances and makes everyone sneak around until they run into each-other in CQB and then spray and pray.

 

I was thinking of what this new "accuracy" reminds me of and this morning I got it, Battlefield 1, where the snipers can not be properly engaged or even pinned with anything other than another bolt gun and the rest of the fighting is CQB spraying at each-other hoping to land "enough hits", with an occasional machinegun posted up until the first bolt gun finds him and headshots him, even if sees the sniper first and tries to hit him with that MG ... probably not going to. Now I personally hate Battlefield 1 specifically because of that and it seriously bothers me that I get some of the same feeling out of Squad now, maybe some people havent figured it out yet and its going to take them a few hundred games, but not me, I understood what happened pretty quickly and then gave people an experiment they can do to also understand the problem, apparently though most people here have a reading-comprehension problems and trying to double-tap a wall at 50 yards is too complicated of a concept.

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Elerik have you considered the idea that the reason you used to average 5 kills and now suddenly average 20 is not because you just became a much better shot but because everyone else got "worse" after the game crippled them? Im just saying, either you suddenly and significantly improved your marksmanship, or, and Im just throwing this out there: Im right. Yeah we can all crawl around, hide and try to sneak up on people to get the jump on them and spray them from 25 feet away,  we can all find those "good" spots on each map where you can post up with a bipod or a scope and get lots of kills, what you call "careful players", but, something tells me that is not the game most Squad players actually want and that isnt what the developers wanted either. I know I dont want that, plenty of games like that already, Red Orchestra comes to mind.

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16 hours ago, BadVlad said:

Dubs ok, now try to do the same thing and double tap. I never said the first shot isnt accurate, I said the MUZZLE CONTROL is terrible meaning that after that first shot your muzzle jumps too much and somewhat randomly and since it usually takes more than one shot to kill someone... Essentially what the developers did is take away the major advantage of using semi-auto over full auto, that control you get by shooting semi isnt there anymore after the first shot and you have to slow down your semi-auto ROF big time just to get a 2nd hit past 50 yards. The developers said they arent giving scopes to everyone because they didnt want the game to become campy but by doing this that is exactly what they did and you can already see it happening, a person in prone with a scope or a bipod is basically the sniper now because you can barely hit them while upright and you cant pin them down with fast semi-auto fire, Im generalizing here because you might hit them with that first shot but you probably wont and they probably will hit you. On the other end of the spectrum it shortens the engagement distances and makes everyone sneak around until they run into each-other in CQB and then spray and pray.

 

I was thinking of what this new "accuracy" reminds me of and this morning I got it, Battlefield 1, where the snipers can not be properly engaged or even pinned with anything other than another bolt gun and the rest of the fighting is CQB spraying at each-other hoping to land "enough hits", with an occasional machinegun posted up until the first bolt gun finds him and headshots him, even if sees the sniper first and tries to hit him with that MG ... probably not going to. Now I personally hate Battlefield 1 specifically because of that and it seriously bothers me that I get some of the same feeling out of Squad now, maybe some people havent figured it out yet and its going to take them a few hundred games, but not me, I understood what happened pretty quickly and then gave people an experiment they can do to also understand the problem, apparently though most people here have a reading-comprehension problems and trying to double-tap a wall at 50 yards is too complicated of a concept.

Can't really test double taps or rapid single fire on targets, since range targets drop with a single shot at 0m - 400m+ with all rifles now. Done a short video firing at around 25 meters(80ft) against a wall with double taps, rapid single fire and full auto. Groupings aren't too bad, just have to do some mouse pulling down action to control the muzzle rise. Added a small clip double tapping someone at around the same distance too.



A lot of games these days = full auto spraying at all distances and don't really influence the use of single fire, or influence conserving ammo. Squad devs have always said they want people to use single fire. Like even v9 and previous versions had slightly exaggerated recoil on full auto, to make people use single fire more, even then 50%+ of people would still spray an m4 at 50+ meters. I guess this new system is a way of adding a different skill ceiling to shooting and making sure people consider controlling their fire if they intended to kill an enemy. It also adds that length to firefights, instead of a firefight ending in 15 seconds, it lasts a little longer.

The game is more campy right now, that's because people aren't confident with the new systems yet. Stamina management, using the right stance, controlling the weapon and even having to use the focus function(Shift hold) a lot more. Adds a whole new learning curve to get used to. Once people start figuring the new system out, and getting comfortable with it, it wont be as campy - but holding angles and positioning will still be a big part of the new system.

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Dubs I respect you for trying, I just played a few more games and yeah you can kill people ... you are just fighting against the game to do it, people are missing ridiculously easy shots left and right, yeah they will adapt and become better at fighting within this system but its garbage none the less. I dont know how else I can explain it, I posted this video in another post because this is what we have now more or less

 

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47 minutes ago, BadVlad said:

Dubs I respect you for trying, I just played a few more games and yeah you can kill people ... you are just fighting against the game to do it, people are missing ridiculously easy shots left and right, yeah they will adapt and become better at fighting within this system but its garbage none the less. I dont know how else I can explain it, I posted this video in another post because this is what we have now more or less

 

It triggers me watching someone lean back before they shoot lol

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1 hour ago, BadVlad said:

Dubs I respect you for trying, I just played a few more games and yeah you can kill people ... you are just fighting against the game to do it, people are missing ridiculously easy shots left and right, yeah they will adapt and become better at fighting within this system but its garbage none the less. I dont know how else I can explain it, I posted this video in another post because this is what we have now more or less

 

It's only that bad if the person is holding their mouse still and not trying to compensate for muzzle rise :P

It's a big change compared to what we had previously, that's for sure. Could it be reduced a little? Sure. 
We can expect it to be tweaked and fine tuned as time goes on, just like all systems and mechanics that are newly implemented. This won't be it's final resting state, it'll be improved upon. 

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1 hour ago, BadVlad said:

Dubs I respect you for trying, I just played a few more games and yeah you can kill people ... you are just fighting against the game to do it.

 

This might just be because I have a different mindset but I don't see the new system as a problem you have to fight against. To me it just means the weapon you're using has some presence in the game now rather than just a laser coming from your character.

 

Yes the recoil is different now but it can still be managed.

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Dubs from what I seen it should be about half of what it is now if not less and the muzzle movement should be consistent when firing semi (if not return to your original point of aim after a split second). I dunno, I have hope they will tweak it a lot more, played a game earlier where I was laying on the ground in the open with a SAW and a bipod deployed and was mowing people down maybe slightly over 100 yards away because they simply couldnt hit me at all, they saw me, they shot at me, it was somewhat comical watching all the bullets hitting all around me, when I did finally die it was a guy with an RPK who also deployed a bipod and managed to hit me. Bipods OP :D

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Before it was about controlling the impulse, now it's about balancing with pendulums. Or now it's painting while holding the brush at the very end and before it was knitting.

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I definitely think the new recoil mechanics feel much better. I like that weapons aren't laser beams that have a predictable recoil pattern like cs:go. In V9 it was very easy to keep follow up shots on target even while spamming the trigger. I don't know if you've shot in real life, but that is very unrealistic. You have to re-align your sights after ever shot, which makes putting a constant stream of bullets on target at 100 m pretty much impossible. The new system feels very fluid and organic and I absolutely think it is more realistic.

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Jellyswim interestingly enough one of the reasons I dont like V10 gun handling is because I shoot in real life and own quite a few guns you find in the game, even have a scoped RPK! What I saw with the intermediate cartridge rifles in V10 is what you would expect from a 308 AR in real life, interestingly enough we have about right semi-auto ROF you would get with one because you have to realign that much after every shot. And even then, a big enough brake and a big enough guy and

thats a 308^^^

this is an AR15

look at the target at the end.

Edited by BadVlad

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On 2/6/2018 at 4:43 PM, BadVlad said:

 

On 2/6/2018 at 4:43 PM, BadVlad said:

Dubs from what I seen it should be about half of what it is now if not less and the muzzle movement should be consistent when firing semi (if not return to your original point of aim after a split second). I dunno, I have hope they will tweak it a lot more, played a game earlier where I was laying on the ground in the open with a SAW and a bipod deployed and was mowing people down maybe slightly over 100 yards away because they simply couldnt hit me at all, they saw me, they shot at me, it was somewhat comical watching all the bullets hitting all around me, when I did finally die it was a guy with an RPK who also deployed a bipod and managed to hit me. Bipods OP :D

Don't get me wrong, it does need to be reduced a little, more so the RNG side of things with it. But I like the direction they're aiming for, where the player has to apply a bit more control.

 

I liked v9 shooting too, the inner twitch shooting nerd inside me loved it, but my gripes with it, was shooting in v9 was pretty straight, even at mid - long range. Was a bit too easy.

 

The new gunplay will be tweaked, no doubt about it. Probably multiple times before it's left completely.

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To be honest V9 shooting was just too repetitive. Point and left click, every time. Atleast now cover has some effect in negating suprise attacks, unless the shooter has a scope or a bit more time than before, which is nice. That said there is this moment when shooting, exactly right after you pull the trigger, where the controls could be a little stiffer.

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