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Jimieus

A discussion on Sights

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So, after playing a fair bit over the weekend I thought it might be worth bringing this up and see what peoples thoughts are.
 
Put simply, the weapon sights (namely aimpoint and acog) irk me somewhat - this is not a dig at Squad specifically, this is more an observation of how many FPS games lately have tackled 3D sights, and how they could possibly be portrayed. I am no veteran, never used a sight in real life, so bare with me here.
 
syyRJH2.jpg
 
This is the aimpoint in Squad currently. Looks beautiful (well, ok this screenshot is bad but you get the picture). I wonder though, is this how we should be seeing it? Our eyes tend not to see everything in focus, particularly when looking at things in the distance with stuff in the foreground, in this instance, our target and the sight we are looking through.
 
Is having such an 'in focus' sight a good or bad thing? Could it possibly be part of the problem with 'FOV' when it comes to ADS - I mean, technically, one would be looking through this with one eye, the other open, from much closer up, correct? If this is the case, should not the sight be out of focus? possibly even partially transparent in places (only obstructing one eye)? Would love some people who have used this equipment to have a quick honest think about this and chime in - I had a little look around myself to try to find examples that demonstrate this - see below:
 
036pJth.jpg
 
nOukBRp.jpg
1Aimpointreddot3.jpg
 
 
And here is some photoshop mockups - working with layers here so just for demo purposes only.
 
Before:
P4bdpUY.jpg
 

After:

zhvntye.jpg

 

And the ACOG

 

Before:

 

D8zifrM.jpg

 

After

 

zqjrt0I.jpg

 

 

Jimi's 2c

 

- Sights out of focus (depth of field) (reticle in focus)

- Keep awesome lens elipsing effect - but lessen depth (wider viewport)

 

 

...and now I can sleep knowing I have got this off my chest. Thoughts? Am I crazy? I dunno, its a dilly of a pickle and I don't know the answer, but, personally, I feel as though the current sights are more of a hindrance than a benefit, and surely that can't be right! Right???

 

EDIT - fixed missing links

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Good post. I know the dev's are hard at work and the sights are already in their worksheets.

 

One of the major things i think should be changed first is the eye relief in the scopes at the minute. Its extremely difficult to keep target acquisition with such a small sight picture, blurring/trans-parenting the scope housing like you have done will also help greatly.

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I too like this idea,but you have to remember, all scopes are still heavily WIP. They will get around to something that is better than current I hope.

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Great find Jimieus! PR blurrs even the vision outside the sights like below. I think it should be like that. Might be a little different with aimpoints though, since you can use those with both eyes opened, and actually see the red point without directly focusing through the scope. Just can't remember how it looks now, I'll have to wait a couple of weeks when I'm off for an exercise. :P

3d_weapon_scopes.jpg

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The front iron sight should also be out of focus. Especially on the ACOG.

 

Doh-Homer-Simpson.jpg

 

Yep. Slightly less than sight housing(?). Dang.

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Here's a thread by one of the devs discussing how they're going to change the scopes

 

http://forums.joinsquad.com/topic/1873-scope-implementation-discussion/

 

Everything is still WIP but I like the idea of blurring the edges of the scope

 

Thanks! Will have a read through now. I guess the big plus with the scope blurring is it clashes less with what you are looking at if that makes sense?

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I myself absolutely LOVE 2d iron sights and optics. I prefer them most cases of 3d sights because a lot of 3d sights are just done in the most wonky ways ever. A good example is the arma games. The sights just float around all over town and the guns jiggle in every which way and you have absolutely no idea where you're going to shoot when mobile, even in close quarters. This changes your playstyle from being able to double tap to suddenly having to mag dump at full auto because you have absolutely no idea where you're going to shoot. Static iron sights fix this by a landslide because the weapon stays fixed on your shoulder and it becomes possible to fire while moving fairly accurately

 

a good example is early americas army when the special forces addon became a thing. the m16, ak47... all of those guns had 2d irons. they were easy to use but hard to master, and then the special forces m4 and aks74u had 3d iron sights that were IMPOSSIBLE to use because they'd wobble all over town like how it is in squad in its current form. you'd literally have to get a scope on your weapon so it'd be useful; otherwise you'd be firing all over town just to even get your bullets anywhere close

 

Call of Duty, the Battlefield games and Insurgency have a really good grip on iron sight handling and how optics should be displayed, but the overall handling of them make them obviously a little too easy to use, whether it be close quarters or not. I still like to think that Insurgency does it best: the guns are effective at close range but become a challenge to use at a distance, which is 9 times out of 10 what you're going to be shooting at in squad

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The biggest problem with sights in games compared to years of real world experience is trying to deal with how the human eye works and applying it to a flat display.  The tunnel vision effect of focusing hard on something like a target you're trying to shoot is challenging to simulate, to say the least.  The primary way most games do it is by over-zooming the FOV and pulling the gun and sights much closer to the screen, which in some cases isn't as bad a solution as it sounds on the surface.

 

Right now the pistols are great but the rifles are held out and away from your body in a similar fashion, which I suspect is one of the first things being changed on the weapons pass.  That's a huge part of the reason the sights are so tough to use.

 

I'd take a look at the second Crysis for how to best pull off depth of field on weapons and hands.  The game had its share of flaws, but its gun mechanics and visuals are not among them.  They had an excellent animation setup with "loose" ADS / sight misalignment while moving or snapping between targets which felt excellent compared to most center-fixed crosshair games.

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something has to change with the aimpoint. I got won at home and something is not right in squad ... normaly you dont have the focus on the aimpoint so you wont see it like this. like the op s second pic more , than it s now. Man my english is bad lol. its to hard to explain in english , but like its now its not right. But the rest i love so much this game is going to be so avesome. oh and another thing the hit detection has to get better sometimes you spray a hole mag or 5-8 shoots on an enemy and they still stand ;) but i think the devs are aware of that. Keep up the good work

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The biggest problem with sights in games compared to years of real world experience is trying to deal with how the human eye works and applying it to a flat display.  The tunnel vision effect of focusing hard on something like a target you're trying to shoot is challenging to simulate, to say the least.  The primary way most games do it is by over-zooming the FOV and pulling the gun and sights much closer to the screen, which in some cases isn't as bad a solution as it sounds on the surface.

 

Right now the pistols are great but the rifles are held out and away from your body in a similar fashion, which I suspect is one of the first things being changed on the weapons pass.  That's a huge part of the reason the sights are so tough to use.

 

I'd take a look at the second Crysis for how to best pull off depth of field on weapons and hands.  The game had its share of flaws, but its gun mechanics and visuals are not among them.  They had an excellent animation setup with "loose" ADS / sight misalignment while moving or snapping between targets which felt excellent compared to most center-fixed crosshair games.

 

Trying to find a good example video of Crysis sights in action - definitely keen to see this!

 

It definitely feels like a mix of issues culminating in a large design problem! Personally, I would like to see the cam brought closer to the sight, the sight misalignment 'ratio' reduced so it doesn't feel like looking down a long tube and having the entire sight itself (minus the reticle) out of focus - not a 2d sprite, but the actual 3d model with sufficient depth of field applied.

 

I reckon that would make one hell of an awesome setup - can't think of anyone who has done that particular setup in the past. Could be another unique feature brought to the table!

 

Thanks for the responses, everyone. Good to know I am not being overly pedantic here!

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Yes, most of the changes you have suggested will come, but there is a long road to get there, unfortunately.

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Yes, most of the changes you have suggested will come, but there is a long road to get there, unfortunately.

 

That's great to hear! I appreciate that we are playing a WIP project currently, and that stuff like this is further down the pipe. Just throwing some thoughts out there so that, hopefully, I can stop thinking them (ha). I may have unintentionally beaten a dead horse here, and for that I apologise.

 

Keep up the great work, keen to see how you guys tackle this little chestnut and look forward to seeing things as they progress!

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Yes, most of the changes you have suggested will come, but there is a long road to get there, unfortunately.

 

2d sights immediate fix!!!!

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Trying to find a good example video of Crysis sights in action - definitely keen to see this!

 

I've been doing a Crysis 2 livestream playthrough on Twitch, but I don't keep VODs saved typically.  I'll record a video with some light commentary on the mechanics if I get a chance this week and link it here.  It's a real shame the third game dropped most of the things that made the weapons feel awesome to use, but then the third Crysis kind of stopped making sense anyway.

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After the first weekend of Squad (Which may I add i thoroughly enjoyed and can't wait till next weekend) theres some things Id like to throw out there and see what other people think and first is the aim point sight. I know many people are discussing zoom and focus outside the reticle, blur etc, but what I am mostly concerned about is why does it feel like Im holding my gun literally arms straight out. The scope seems to take up most of my vision in front of me. Trying to follow targets at 20-50 or so yards (ball park) is terribly hard. Ive used my fair share of scopes of all kinds, aim points included, and I've never had trouble in real life with the scope obstructing so much vision. I think the scope needs to be closer to the face to give a more "actually" looking down the scope not sticking my arms out and looking through a tiny picture.

 

Another thing is the amount of gun movement and lack of scope steadying, again I can quite easily hit targets with iron sights at 300 yards with a ar-15 or equivalent rifle or even AK in real life and can steady the gun quite well while standing and more so kneeling, yet in this game my scope movement makes shots at 300 yards pretty much impossible. Even with the ACOG i find myself trying to compensate for the scope so much i can barely shoot, or i just wait for the scope to sway over my target to take a shot cause its terribly hard to control. Anyone with decent gun control (aka a regular soldier)(And yes Im using soldier as a loose term, i know other branches call it different terms) I would hope could hold a gun steadier then that. Now I understand if you've just used all your sprint or been running awhile then yes scope control can be hard but I shouldn't have this much problem sitting at a FOB or up a hill trying to shoot down even 200 yards.

 

With the criticism aside I feel the game as a whole was pretty good this weekend and I for sure had my fair share of intense firefights and close games and yes i realize its a pre-alpha so i understand these things could be in the making and may or may-not change. Just my 2 cents. Long Thread is long.

Edited by Dale
thread merged

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I agree, it kinda feels like you're holding all guns at arms length. The devs have said they are still working on these things in other threads so hopefully this is addressed.

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I agree on this topic, the way you hold your gun doesn't feel very authentic in the way of how your soldier seems to struggle with it.

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