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Aiming Deadzone

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May I suggest having a small fixed aiming deadzone, about the same size or slightly smaller than Insurgency's.

 

And on aiming downsight, the weapon would be randomly lined anywhere within the deadzone. This is to prolong target acquisition, especially for high powered scopes, since the game wont have bullet deviation, and sway may not be powerful enough to hinder fast acquisition.

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Have you ever played Red Orchestra Ostfront or RO2:HOS? That game has what you are describing, and it is a very cool hipfire system; you have to use your eyes to estimate the direction that the barrel of your weapon is pointing to "guide" the spray of the hipfire.

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I suppose you're talking about the Free Aim.

While I like it when the weapon is low (like in RO1 and RO2), I really don't like it when ADS. I seriously think that the sight should always be right in the middle of the screen.

Really hated RO2 for that part btw.

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Sadly no, I havent played that game.

 

I'm not necessarily talking about free aim while you're ADS, I meant a hipfire deadzone + randomly deviated ADS, so that your scope wouldnt immediately center on the object right in the middle of your screen, and you'd have to make adjustments.

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obaama, regarding the op, i dont understand what u mean by an "aiming deadzone" and i have INS (mod and stand alone), which makes it even more confusing. could u explain a little more; and what is ADS?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZa_3kth-sE

 

Check out this gameplay footage of Ostfront. I think it has exactly the kind of deadzone system that we all desire in a tactical FPS.

 

See how the barrel of the gun is free to point left, right, up and down? In that game, if you hipfire the bullets don't fly into the center of your screen. Instead, they fly wherever the barrel of the weapon happens to be pointing. So the player has to compensate for this inaccuracy during hipfire by adjusting with his mouse.

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obaama, regarding the op, i dont understand what u mean by an "aiming deadzone" and i have INS (mod and stand alone), which makes it even more confusing. could u explain a little more; and what is ADS?

it's a circle in the center of the screen, around the crosshair, where your arms and weapon can move without the rest of your body moving; without the field of view changing. in arma for example you have a slider in the settings through which you could disable it or make it so that your character can aim anywhere in your field of view without turning - and everything in between. but i wouldnt like it to be adjustable since people who disable it are at an advantage over those who dont. i'd like to have a small one, to simulate PR's conical deviation which wont be brought over to this game. it would make thinks a bit harder and prevent "quickscoping" which is very likely to happen if 1) you're going to have the guns shoot exactly where the barrel is pointing 2) aiming down sight automatically points your barrel to the center of the screen, and then start swaying.

 

and @nightingale, that's the hipfire part, which frankly i dont mind much, and the whole vid is CQC so i cant really tell if ADS works as i'm suggesting here. i'm talking about a randomised ADS to make it harder to kill people further away with high power scopes with the first shot, as easily as it is in a game like BF4 for example.

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I would probably prefer the Ostfront method from the suggestions mentioned so far. In RO2, having the deadzone while in iron sights does nil for target acquisition time as evidenced by watching even the most standard of gameplay (and of course hands on experience). Having the deadzone for hip firing is beneficial for gameplay on both ends of the barrel, having dead zone while in sights is just a middle man feature that doesn't make anyone better or worse. My two cents.

 

When acquiring targets at distance I rather have the ballistics take front and center and player response, such as accurately gauging distance, adjusting sights and accounting for target movement/stance rather than random deadzone adjustments.

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I would probably prefer the Ostfront method from the suggestions mentioned so far. In RO2, having the deadzone while in iron sights does nil for target acquisition time as evidenced by watching even the most standard of gameplay (and of course hands on experience). Having the deadzone for hip firing is beneficial for gameplay on both ends of the barrel, having dead zone while in sights is just a middle man feature that doesn't make anyone better or worse. My two cents.

 

Overall, I'd just like to see what the guys working on the game want to go with weapon handling in general before applying any general suggested specifics though.

i'm not talking about having the deadzone WHILE in iron sights. i'm basically talking about a system that randomizes your line of aim (within a narrow deadzone) the instant you aim down sights.

 

but yes, we'll have to wait and see how the devs do it first.

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The main reason I prefer this in games that try to emulate realism is that they usually don't have a cross-hair and this hip fire "free aim" style prevents people from being able to accurately mark the centre of their monitor to aim with.

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Aiming deadzones don't necessarily prevent accurate hipfire, just make it less intuitive. The key is to make hitting your targets while aiming down the sights hard enough in the first place so as to make it virtually impossible to accurately "hip"fire at anything but close range. 

 

http://dslyecxi.com/freeaim/

 

 

Freeaim fails by virtue of how it works. In the context of the ArmA2 implementation, freeaim fails in that it forces you to ‘pan’ your view awkwardly by moving your aim to the limits of the ‘deadzone’ area before you’ll actually begin turning. From here, you end up with your weapon pointed in the direction you were turning, offset from your screen center in whatever direction that happened to be. Your actual aiming point – your muzzle direction if unsighted, or your irons if sighted – continually moves around your screen and relative to your viewing direction. One of the key principles of becoming a good shooter in the real world is being able to muscle-memory various common actions, such as indexing a stock in your shoulder, moving a weapon from a carrying posture (low/high ready, sul, etc) into a sighted posture, aligning your sights, establishing a stock weld, inserting or removing a magazine sight-unseen, and so forth.

Freeaim prevents you from developing this sort of muscle memory with the aiming process, as it provides a ‘moving target’ that constantly changes where your aiming point will be on-screen. In reality, a shooter looks at what they intend to engage, and their body works to bring their weapon up and aligned with where they’re looking. It is an absolutely natural process, and being able to repeatedly execute this concept unconsciously and with consistent results is key to being an effective shooter. It is true that you may end up twisting your torso or contorting your body in other ways to engage multiple targets, take advantage of cover, and so forth – however, this has little or no bearing on what you as a shooter are seeing. You are focusing on your target, your weapon sights are aligned with your eyes, and that’s that.

 

I also once was an advocate of aiming deadzones/free aim but that was before I'd even really tried playing ArmA without it. The beneficial effect of not using it is especially noticeable in close quarters against other players - I doubt anyone would even dream of swinging their weapon around wildly as in RO2/Ins when entering that sort of situation. The freeaim systems of those games also fail in that you have virtually no control of where the weapon is pointing when "hip"firing - It's panning your view that changes the point of aim, rather than ArmA's actual deadzone system which its self, as Dslyecxi explains better than I do, is flawed in terms of both realism and gameplay.

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I don't remember how it is in current insurgency but when it was still a mod, it had a better solution than current Arma- when you turned during hipfire, your weapon turned with you but with increased speed/angle but just to some degree. This prevented mentioned turning clumsiness and it didn't put the aiming point in the center of the screen, you had to aim along the guns barrel (which at times could be really handy). When zoomed in, the crosshair and turning went back to center point. I'll try to illustrate it in a video...

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I don't remember how it is in current insurgency but when it was still a mod, it had a better solution than current Arma- when you turned during hipfire, your weapon turned with you but with increased speed/angle but just to some degree. This prevented mentioned turning clumsiness and it didn't put the aiming point in the center of the screen, you had to aim along the guns barrel (which at times could be really handy). When zoomed in, the crosshair and turning went back to center point. I'll try to illustrate it in a video...

I know exactly how both Ins and Insmod's freeaim worked - I actually prefer ArmA's deadzone to Ins'/RO2's freeaim since I had some actual control over exactly where my weapon is pointed - In RO2/Ins, aiming your weapon from the hip can interfere with your movement - eg to aim at that guy, I can't turn any more left or my aim will be thrown off big-time, but if I don't allow myself to do so, I can't move to this piece of cover while keeping him sighted. Again, read the rest of this http://dslyecxi.com/freeaim/ - He goes on to talk about RO2's system which is virtually the same as Ins'.

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i'm not talking about having the deadzone WHILE in iron sights. i'm basically talking about a system that randomizes your line of aim (within a narrow deadzone) the instant you aim down sights.

Oh, I know what you mean now. But isn't this the exact same thing as the sight alignment animation that occurs each time you go ADS? I think that even in arcade games like CoD:MW2 the bullets don't fly straight until your character has finished lining up his sights. All we would need is a very long sight alignment time, and that would achieve what you are thinking about right?

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I read the rest of dyslecxi's post and I still think the system in INS Mod was one of the best gameplay wise, it took time to get used to but in the end it was very balanced, since you could learn to use your weapon from the hip without painting a dot on your monitor, and there was no random deviation added to hipfire. The problem you mentioned is not related to freeaim itself but to the fact that the gun was zooming towards the point where the gun is aiming (just in the video example I posted). But it is possible to set it to zoom to screen center. Here's a video example.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6YhxgTVza0&feature=youtu.be

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Yeah I think I get what Obaama is saying. So when you go from holding the gun at the hip or slung down into sights you don't immediately focus on what was in the center of your screen, your screen moves to the line of your barrel no matter what it was pointing at before.

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Yeah I think I get what Obaama is saying. So when you go from holding the gun at the hip or slung down into sights you don't immediately focus on what was in the center of your screen, your screen moves to the line of your barrel no matter what it was pointing at before.

Exactly. Or randomly within a small cone in center of your screen, since you're relocating the barrel by shouldering the rifle to aim down sight.

 

 

All we would need is a very long sight alignment time, and that would achieve what you are thinking about right?

That would do it as well. A mix of both maybe.

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Yeah I think I get what Obaama is saying. So when you go from holding the gun at the hip or slung down into sights you don't immediately focus on what was in the center of your screen, your screen moves to the line of your barrel no matter what it was pointing at before.

This is counter-intuitive, especially with an RO2/Ins style freeaim wherein you have virtually zero control over where the gun's pointing. When you go to aim a weapon you bring it up in line with your eyes, not the other way around.

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This is counter-intuitive, especially with an RO2/Ins style freeaim wherein you have virtually zero control over where the gun's pointing. When you go to aim a weapon you bring it up in line with your eyes, not the other way around.

Yes you bring it up to your line of sight but not exactly where you want it to be. You still have to make adjustments. And I'm not saying that it necessarily has to be were your gun has been pointing before shouldering it.

 

If you're running with your gun slung and see a guy in the third floor window of a distant building, you're going to shoulder and aim in the general direction of the building first and then lead your sights toward him. The way it is, and since we wont have deviation, you could just mark the center of your screen, and quick-shoot him the instant you're ADS.

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Yes you bring it up to your line of sight but not exactly where you want it to be. You still have to make adjustments. And I'm not saying that it necessarily has to be were your gun has been pointing before shouldering it.

 

If you're running with your gun slung and see a guy in the third floor window of a distant building, you're going to shoulder and aim in the general direction of the building first and then lead your sights toward him. The way it is, and since we wont have deviation, you could just mark the center of your screen, and quick-shoot him the instant you're ADS.

Yeah, I'm not advocating that sort of system, just pointing out the flaws with the way wrecker put it; By the way he worded it, it sounds as though you would be sighted in towards where the weapon is pointed rather than where you're looking.

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RO2's aiming deadzone works because the game doesn't have free-look. Idk, I'd still like to see it. Whilst it may not be 'realistic', it's a game, and games need mechanics so that they aren't exploited.I.e. by super accurate hipfire. Deviation as in BF2 is not the solution to hipfire.

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Deviation as in BF2 is not the solution to hipfire.

I don't think you'll find anyone who disagrees. PR's deviation actually made it much better an idea to hipfire in close quarters since the spread was so huge, you barely had to aim especially with high ROF weapons.

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Why don't you just copy the aiming deadzone implementation from ONE OF THE BEST tactical shooter ever made? Infiltration.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHl2sPT2vyg#t=14

 

Might be worthwhile to go through this article made by Dslyecxi.

 

http://dslyecxi.com/articles_wp/best-of-tactical-gaming-infiltration/

 

A lot of great features, that were introduced in a game made in 2001 (?). Having these kind of features in SQUAD would certainly put it above the "competition".

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