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Night Sniper

Possible helicopter controls.

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Posted (edited)

I want to discuss possible heli controls if these will be added to the game.

 

The "battlefield" system is kinda realistic but hard. Game must be pleasant to play, so i hope you will read this to it's end and submit your own hopes.

 

So, for a second i want you to remember if you have ever played the "Joint Operations" game series.

If you do, you have got the idea right now.

 

For everyone else, i will explain.

In joint ops controls were easy.

 

If you want to fly forward then you press and hold W key.if you release than heli will stabilise itself. This means that you have NO way to do a barrelroll and kill yourself and ALL your passangers.

To show you basics:

W - forward

A - left

S - backwards

D - right

BUT THE MOST

 

E - TO FLY UP

Q - TO FLY DOWN

Z- MIN SPEED

X - NORMAL SPEED

C - FULL SPEED.

 

Also, to turn your heli in space you just need to turn your mouse left and right. Moving it up and down allows you to aim miniguns/rocket launchers.

 

There is a link to a youtube video (not mine) with a training aircrafts mission.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lCsK4ZNlPZ4

 

Watch if you need and submit your answer.

Edited by Night Sniper

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https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1205163003

 

Quote

CONTROLS:
W: Increase Altitude
A/D: Yaw
Mouse: Pitch/Roll
Left Alt: Freelook
Vehicle Zoom: Switches between roll/yaw on the mouse/keyboard (V2 vs V3 controls)
Vehicle handbrake (Space bar): Deploy/retract blackhawk ropes

 

^ I tried flying the helicopter on Al Basrah and it was pretty easy took me about a minute to figure it out. The only thing the game will 100% need to have is reverse Y axis separately for air vehicles and another for infantry movement. 

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totally agree @Night Sniper, JO was super easy - particularly as the same control system was used for all the vehicles, which made it very intuitive.

 

Q + E, lower/raise altitude (throttle (limited to level bounds)

A + S, strafe (roll (limited))

W + S, forward/backward (pitch (limited))

Mouse, direction (yaw (unlimited))

Right Mouse, free-look (for me)

* pitch on the motorbikes was not limited, so you could use it to pull mono's as well as correct your landing angle or do complete loops, before landing, after getting air.

 

i forgot about the handbrake ;) - sorely needed i think.

 

great vid too :)

 

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Posted (edited)

Frankly I think the bindings will be fully customizable with pitch and roll bound to mouse movement, and with the addition of freelook it's going to feel a lot like Arma.

 

However, an automatic stability system is going to limit the maneuverability greatly.

Easy controls = less functionality.

It wouldnt necessarily be a problem for transport helicopters, but if you've ever played Ghost recon wildlands before they changed the helo controls, it was basically impossible to use mounted gunpods and missiles. It also makes any advanced maneuvers impossible as well.

 

In a game intending to create realistic, player driven gameplay, an AI assisted flight model to make flight easier doesn't really fit and I don't think this is the direction the devs will take.

 

 

Edited by jellyswim

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On 1/5/2018 at 11:37 AM, jellyswim said:

Frankly I think the bindings will be fully customizable

this would be great to start with (kinda assumed it tho).

On 1/5/2018 at 11:37 AM, jellyswim said:

However, an automatic stability system is going to limit the maneuverability greatly.

Easy controls = less functionality.

...

an AI assisted flight model to make flight easier doesn't really fit and I don't think this is the direction the devs will take.

well, yes, if you want to do barrel rolls and such, otherwise it gives you all the freedom to play the role without needing a complex control system - one that mimics all the vehicles would also be more intuitive than one that does not. we're not talking about anything AI, just a simpler system to provide accessibility to the game, which is also something the Devs want, i believe.

On 1/5/2018 at 11:37 AM, jellyswim said:

if you've ever played Ghost recon wildlands before they changed the helo controls, it was basically impossible to use mounted gunpods and missiles

yes i did and yes it was utterly woeful!! but that game had rubbish vehicle controls as well as being a rubbish game in general (i gave up on it after only hours). the GR flight control system, and how it worked, is similar in that it is 'simple', but also very different to what we describe from JO - if you've ever played JO you would know what we mean. in JO it's not terribly hard to fly and use the fixed weapons on the helo's at the same time - the biggest problem was miniguns destroying latency. Please don't let ghost recon be your basis for how this could be done, it's way off the mark. ;)

 

certainly i think that it would be nice, time permitting, if the Devs could include a complex flight control system for those that wish to use stick+pedals or a full-on collective setup (i'd even give it a go) - just not be limited to a complex system.

 

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Posted (edited)

Sorry for my poor english, but I want to express my opinion about this because I would like to be a chopper pilot.

 

I haven't play JO so I can't talk about it. However I would like a system like in ArmA which was very easy to understand but difficult to master (a lot of people had trouble to fly properly the chopper if they don't spend time to master it).

 

Concerning the flight mechanics, I want the helo to be as realistic as possible without going full simulation (Squad is not a simulation so no needs for that).

 

This is why I want to see something like the "arcade" flight model of ArmA or even better : the "advanced" flight model of ArmA which might be hard at the beginning but if you spent some time to master it, then it is really satisfying because you will be able to do a lot of good stuff in the air and people will trust you as a pilot (should you not crash at your first take off :D ).

 

If I want a flight model (FM) with a "lot" of complexity, that's because i'm sick of some players - thinking that they are pilot whereas they never trainned - taking a chopper with 10 or 20 players in it and insta-crashing at the take off.

I've observed that with a more complex FM, casual player who want to pilot are frustated so they don't try it again where as "true pilot" who really want to do this job take the time to learn, go in SOLO to challenge themself and are more satisfied to master a more difficult FM.

 

In "arcade" flight model on ArmA it was something like that :

 

Z : forward (pitch up)

S : backward (pitch down)

D : roll right

Q : roll left

X : yaw left

C : yaw right

A : climb

W : descend

 

But i'm sure that all those key functions will be bindable.

 

 

 

However I don't want this built-in "auto hover" mechanic that we have in ArmA. It is not very realistic and I've seen a lot of player using it to land in the wrong manner. Just as an example of a bad utilisation :

 

Player1 is piloting the chopper at an altitude of 200m and a speed of 300km/h.

He wants to land but Player1 is not really confident because he didn't trained.

He pressed the magic button to enable "auto hover" and then the chopper climb and pitch up to stop.

When the chopper finally stop and stabilise itself, Player1 is at an altitude of 500m with a speed of 0km/h and every alarm in the chopper are ringing because all the AAA are focusing on the chopper...

 

This scenario is the better, because you have not to wait 10 minutes for the chopper to descend in a perfect vertical trajectory at a very low speed and finally being killed at the landing because Player1 didn't decelerated at the end, resulting in a hard landing which injured you, your squad and destroyed the chopper...

 

The "auto hover" was usefull when you were landing on a mountain with a slope of 45° and your rotor was at 10cm of the terrain. That's the good use of this mechanic but most people were using it in the wrong way.

 

Edited by morse27

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Lel, i hope for Hotas control input + axis fine tuning. Flying with keyboard/mouse is a handicap by default. 

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Sure but there must be some keyboard commands for those who don't have a joy.

I'm sure that there will be some hotas support and i'm hoping that the game will support trackir too for choppers

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, morse27 said:

He pressed the magic button to enable "auto hover" and then the chopper climb and pitch up to stop.

a button !? you make it sound like it's going to be some kind of get-out-of-trouble magic switch on the dashboard - this is not what has been suggested.

the flight system should have some stability built-in, ie: limits to attitude and such will create the feeling of a stable aircraft without being totally 'arcade', including momentum in all axis to give the aircraft 'weight' - exactly like ArmA but maybe a little toned-down - i've played ArmA and found choppers to be a fun challenge but they did get out-of-shape far too easily for a game, imo - i consider ArmA to be semi-sim. i've also tried flying choppers in X-Plane and found it nigh-on impossible to get off the ground without crashing - so if you want anything beyond what ArmA offers, you want flightsim style ...

 

you would find JO's model too simple, and no doubt it is for Squad but it's basic premise is valid - make it accessible. go and find some old vid of JO choppers and see what i mean - not the arcadeyness of thier movement but the momentum type effect that gave weight to the aircraft.

your reasons to dislike a simpler system and worries about how other players will fly are exactly why i suggested a dual system.

 

if you want a distinct lack of players on any given server that can fly to your required "true pilot"(whatever that means) competancy, then go with a complex system that most people will not bother with if they don't have the time or basic skills to fly even semi-sim - this will cause issues when no "true pilots" are currently on-line, but if there is also a simpler system with dual control options then others who would like to try, and may even have skills to do so, should be able to have a go as well. - this basic idea has been discussed before in the forums, re: pilot training.

 

it's amazing how worried some are that "anyone with less experience than me will fail dismally and kill everyone all the time" - because that's how it comes across. worry less and see what happens - people will cope either way.

 

13 hours ago, -MG said:

... Flying with keyboard/mouse is a handicap by default. 

(so is driving ;) )

true, but really only for those games(Semi-Sim) that have complex fight models, otherwise using 'hotas' setup with a simpler model will be a pointless waste of hardware, thus the reason for two models.

Edited by LaughingJack

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5 hours ago, LaughingJack said:

(so is driving ;) )

true, but really only for those games(Semi-Sim) that have complex fight models, otherwise using 'hotas' setup with a simpler model will be a pointless waste of hardware, thus the reason for two models.

Basically yeah, just speaking of my own expierience....and if you get PR flying then hardware is redundant indeed.
You can bounce of the ground going 250 and continue flying or smash into the ground at 100 altitude without killing your gears.
From what i saw on Youtube 

 

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In my opinion the PR flight control model is good, if you want something easier the BF2 flight control model was balanced enough to be fun and interesting.

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So I went and downloaded JO  because it seemed like a cool game (it's unfortunate that the multiplayer is dead) but after messing around with the helicopters, I felt it was a little too arcade-like for a game like squad. I see the reasoning behind this post, but in my opinion, the JO flight model doesn't fit the vision of squad.

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I really loved the way they worked in BF2/PR. It's much better than the later BF titles. I would be glad to have these exact controlls back lol.

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Copy the flight model of Arma.. it's perfect! Onces mastered it's alot better and more realistic than BF/PR flight model without being much harder to master. 

 

If the flight model is like in PR or worse- BF it will reflect on the gameplay of everyone in the field. I believe BF flightmodel helicopter will be 10x harder to hit because they can do f**king barrol rolls 10 feet of the deck, and that will be a pain in the ass to meet when gunships are included. 

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30 minutes ago, Talldudessj said:

Copy the flight model of Arma.. it's perfect! Onces mastered it's alot better and more realistic than BF/PR flight model without being much harder to master. 

 

If the flight model is like in PR or worse- BF it will reflect on the gameplay of everyone in the field. I believe BF flightmodel helicopter will be 10x harder to hit because they can do f**king barrol rolls 10 feet of the deck, and that will be a pain in the ass to meet when gunships are included. 

Arma 3's physics should be a minimum. And even those are arcade....cuz Arma does not even have weight physics to aicraft armaments or crosswind.
Yet it has some realism in the rotor and rotorblade behaviour. 

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16 minutes ago, -MG said:

Arma 3's physics should be a minimum. And even those are arcade....cuz Arma does not even have weight physics to aicraft armaments or crosswind.
Yet it has some realism in the rotor and rotorblade behaviour. 

Totaly agree man! :D

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A mix of Arma 3's and RS2:V would be ideal for Squad. Nothing as complex as Arma 3's AFM as it's really not good for public games.

 

Personally I hope we get a collective adjustment and not just a simple ascend/descend. 

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On 1/9/2018 at 3:49 AM, jellyswim said:

So I went and downloaded JO  because it seemed like a cool game (it's unfortunate that the multiplayer is dead) but after messing around with the helicopters, I felt it was a little too arcade-like for a game like squad. I see the reasoning behind this post, but in my opinion, the JO flight model doesn't fit the vision of squad.

yeah it sucks hard bout the MP. shame you didn't pick it up 10 years ago ... no wait, that was when i finally stopped playing it ... omg! you needed to have picked it up bloody 15years ago! :D holy shizsnax! has it been that long?!  - i was even happy to get on U.S. servers with the horrid 250+ ping, just to play some more. :D

 

yes it probably is a little too arcade for Squad but i still think that it has some merit from an ideas POV - it was a good mix of arcade with some (little bit) RL thrown in, in the form of momentum. importantly it gave you the ability to do the job, under fire and not die ... well, too often. ;P

the control system in BF("BF" incl. BC2 as well) was dodgy and not terribly realistic, imo and the fixed wings in BF's were even worse - totally unrealistic.

... "if the flight model is like in PR or worse- BF it will reflect on the gameplay of everyone in the field. ... because they can do f**king barrol rolls 10 feet of the deck, ... " talldudessj.

the Arma(3?) system is/was better but still requires a control set that is not KB+Mouse to be anything but a liability to all players in the AO.

i still think we can get a system that has both KB+M and FlightStick/Collective, as options to allow peeps to play either way - it can be done.

 

the other note i'd like to make, based on my time playing JO and BF's is this: as soon as any chopper sticks it's head up above the tree-line, regardless of the pilots skill, or lack thereof, and regardless of the control system used, that chopper will have so much materiel pointed at it or flying at it that it will last a very. short. time. indeed.

as i see it you have two options;

1. make the choppers unrealistically tough (not good)

 or

2. make the choppers easy-er to fly (compared to sim-like, that requires other than KB+M to control).

 

On 1/8/2018 at 5:07 PM, -MG said:

Basically yeah, just speaking of my own expierience....and if you get PR flying then hardware is redundant indeed.
You can bounce of the ground going 250 and continue flying or smash into the ground at 100 altitude without killing your gears.
From what i saw on Youtube

see, now i've seen this i have even less respect for PR and for those vouching PR as "realistic", if true.

at least in JO there was a good chance of blowing up in those situations - the lolz moments were those when some poor sucker got caught up it trees or an aerial tower, and started jamming up and down all over the shop - peeps jumping for their lives knowing what was coming - the big-explosion-and-fiery-death bit.

Edited by LaughingJack

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9 hours ago, LaughingJack said:

 

see, now i've seen this i have even less respect for PR and for those vouching PR as "realistic", if true.

at least in JO there was a good chance of blowing up in those situations - the lolz moments were those when some poor sucker got caught up it trees or an aerial tower, and started jamming up and down all over the shop - peeps jumping for their lives knowing what was coming - the big-explosion-and-fiery-death bit.


Comes in at 200 at altitude of 55. You know what this will do ?. Rip of your gears and probably have you nose plant blowing up in the process. 
Remember this is a heli, not a jet. 150 speed is fine for jets to land 200 is probably too hot. For a heli you'd want 30-50 to come in.  
 


KA 60 doing 570 at speed. Most helis go around 200-300 IRL depending on how loaded they're. So basically, in PR this chopper would be faster then the A10c flying in straight path x'D. 
 


Another joke, diving with a cobra. Let alone recovering from that dive. Highly unrealistic...you'd fall out of the sky like a brick.
Even if he levels out there is going to be downward force that will be greater then the rotors thrust. unless you start coming out of the dive at 1000 altitude then i'd see a possible chance of survival.


Then again....PR is made of a 13 year old AAA title. Go figure :D,  
 

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On 1/11/2018 at 3:51 AM, Talldudessj said:

Copy the flight model of Arma.. it's perfect! Onces mastered it's alot better and more realistic than BF/PR flight model without being much harder to master. 

 

If the flight model is like in PR or worse- BF it will reflect on the gameplay of everyone in the field. I believe BF flightmodel helicopter will be 10x harder to hit because they can do f**king barrol rolls 10 feet of the deck, and that will be a pain in the ass to meet when gunships are included. 

I completely agree. ARMA makes it reasonably easy to fly with a mouse and keyboard, but completely rewarding to fly with rudder pedals and a stick. While it's not difficult to get decent quickly, which keeps pilot slots full, it does take time to master, which means that really good pilots are an asset. 

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