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Rich08809

Required experience for being a SL

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8 hours ago, keen said:

I dont get why everybody is against a ranking system?!

I get that nobody likes leveling up for perks, unlocks and so on. A rank should not give you any gameplay advantage in a realistic, teamplay-oriented tactic-shooter like Squad. This would ruin the whole purpose of the game. 

But what is wrong with a ranking system? I think a ranking system WITHOUT any advantages besides having a certain rank/level is a really good thing. Such a level is just for you. And maybe for the example for squad leader you can see how experienced he might be. And this is not breaking the game/giving a disadvantage. It is just helping the teamplay aspect, because it is just normal that you do not promote new players to a leading-position.

But the most important thing is: you can see a progress FOR YOURSELF! and statistics are always very important and interesting (for me). I just like to see my progress. Coming everyday back to a game, playing it for hours and you can not see what you have done with all your time can be a very demotivating.

And what you want to see my friend ? How many hours you spent with shovel ? Or sitting on D flag ? Or driving logistic ? Or firing billions of bullets from AR and just pin enemy and allow friendlis get closer with grenades ? Or how many you revived ? Because those stuff are pretty much most important in game. I can simply say. Many many hours. Many many hours. Many many hours. Billions. Many many revives. Hmm. Cant tell if i need some "ranks" for that. I dont care. Whats progress?  Dont die. Have a 0 death at the end of game. Repeat. This is challenge which is extremly hard. Push deaths to 0 is pretty fine progress and I dont need any statistics for that its simple to watch. But dont tell k/d ... because its crap. With v10 many players who now suck will be great. And who is great now will be avarage. And with another update it will be again different. And one year you play pretty good and another you suck. Thats it. K/D is not interesting. At least for anybody who want chill by teamwork. Squad is simple Social area. ... Or how many you killed by Mortar. Sure ? Because its not exactly your skill but skills of other people who give you proper enemy position and correction. So its crap statement. And thats it. Many times you shooting at somewhere where you just feel that enemy is there. With gl, LAT, AR, or rifle. Or pop nade over wall you jsut have some feels that it can be dangerous to walk there. 

So at the end of day most legit information is amount of death. Just one simple statement. If you so much want it. Open a Excel and record it. You can make some graphs from it. Its easy. Because you will just couple of games per day. And 3 minutes in between rounds. Enough time. 

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11 hours ago, keen said:

I dont get why everybody is against a ranking system?!

 

But what is wrong with a ranking system? I think a ranking system WITHOUT any advantages besides having a certain rank/level is a really good thing. Such a level is just for you. And maybe for the example for squad leader you can see how experienced he might be. And this is not breaking the game/giving a disadvantage. It is just helping the teamplay aspect, because it is just normal that you do not promote new players to a leading-position.

 

Ranking based on what exactly? Hours played? Because pretty much everything in game has some serious flaws. Team score? Flawed. Teamwork score? Flawed. K/D? Flawed. I mean I played a game a couple weeks ago where I had 50,000 points and my entire team only had 60,000. How many "levels" does that get me? The fact that all I did was sit in the logi in main and spam Q to my mortar FOB is completely irrelevant ;)

 

Personally I wouldn't mind having some way to ID 'hours played'. Something like <100, <200, <500, <1000, etc. However even that is flawed, as

A) you can rack up hours by "seeding" (sitting idle in a server). I have 2700+ hours. At least 50-60% (probably more) are from seeding a server. Not playing, not improving myself in anyway (practicing driving/routes, learning the maps, etc) - just loading up Squad, joining a server then going to work. A fellow admin will kick me when the server gets full.

B) hours tell you absolutely nothing about how competent a player is. I've had SLs who were very new and while they sucked, they did listen and take direction. Which meant I could coach them and work with them as part of the team to make it manageable. I've also had SL's who've had 500+ hours still not get the mechanics of the game and do things like place idiotic FOBs and still try to cap a flag that wasn't capable - even after it was pointed out to them (we'll just go try it anyway and see what happens - too bad we're getting our asses kicked on the important flag and it won't matter).

 

So even something like the system BF has, where X amount of points gets you a new "level". The issue with that, is then players will forget about playing the proper way (whether that's defending, attacking or whatever) and just go for what will get them to that next level. Sometimes that's conducive to winning the round... but when using your shovel on sandbags gets you points, and you still have players (and worse SLs) who brag about how their super FOB that was completely irrelevant gave them the best score... it's not something that's going to help the team win, which means it's meaningless.

At some point Squad will come up with a better metric for how much a player "helped" their team win. When that happens, perhaps there's some sort of easy number that can be created to try and ID a players "skill" or "competence". But until that happens, any 'ranking' number given can be gamed, and unfortunately is pretty meaningless as to how good the player actually is.

 

Edited by Ti0mat

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7 hours ago, elerik said:

How many hours you spent with shovel ? Or sitting on D flag ? Or driving logistic ? Or firing billions of bullets from AR and just pin enemy and allow friendlis get closer with grenades ? Or how many you revived ?

Of course you should get XP (or whatever) for everything you do in game. Everything and much more than you did list. I think the K/D should count at least. Of course killing is important, but in 99% of the matches it does not help your team win. 

4 hours ago, Ti0mat said:

 

Ranking based on what exactly? Hours played? Because pretty much everything in game has some serious flaws. Team score? Flawed. Teamwork score? Flawed. K/D? Flawed. I mean I played a game a couple weeks ago where I had 50,000 points and my entire team only had 60,000. How many "levels" does that get me? The fact that all I did was sit in the logi in main and spam Q to my mortar FOB is completely irrelevant ;)

 

Just everything. It should not become like in CoD that killing gives the most XP, so every Gamemode becomes Deathmatch xD

I do not know how exactly they should implement it. But I am pretty sure there is a way that pushes and encourages teamwork and also will not give disadvantage for people who:

4 hours ago, Ti0mat said:

 

sit in the logi in main and spam Q to my mortar FOB 

 

 

Edited by keen

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Why is this topic here once again.... Devs confirmed there will be NO exp./ranking  toward current game meta. At least for the time being. 

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On 1/11/2018 at 11:40 PM, keen said:

Of course you should get XP (or whatever) for everything you do in game. Everything and much more than you did list. I think the K/D should count at least. Of course killing is important, but in 99% of the matches it does not help your team win. 

Just everything. It should not become like in CoD that killing gives the most XP, so every Gamemode becomes Deathmatch xD

I do not know how exactly they should implement it. But I am pretty sure there is a way that pushes and encourages teamwork and also will not give disadvantage for people who:

 

So in other words you want a number that means nothing other than you play - basically like the "rank" in Battlefield. What value does this bring to anyone?

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What happens if you are all noobs on the server without the requisite hours ?  in a ranking system it would mean no one could lead a squad?  

 

or the only squad you can join that is left open has an SL that is a complete and utter *** head .. suddenly you find yourself stuck with him until another requisite ranked SL creates a squad and you can move.. or you don't join a squad and get kicked from the server for not joining a squad, or get fed up because you are just a rifleman.

 

Elitism has no place in this game, as I have oft said, just because you might have hours in the game does not make you good at it... just look at me for example!

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Developing a whole new system for just one reason, probably means that it's not a good enough reason.

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On 1/19/2018 at 3:21 AM, embecmom said:

Elitism has no place in this game, as I have oft said, just because you might have hours in the game does not make you good at it... just look at me for example!

Couldn't agree more. I mean look no further then these FOB placements by a fellow RU SL not 5 minutes into the game. He had over 1100 hours in the game. I don't think you could have worse placements even if you tried.

 

map2a.jpg

 

So while there were times I wish I could find out how many hours someone has (both as a player and an admin) - especially very low hour players (<20/50), because them squad leading is usually a disaster... restricting kits/squad leading abilities based on some number is a terrible idea.

Edited by Ti0mat

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4 minutes ago, Ti0mat said:

Couldn't agree more. I mean look no further then these HAB placements by a fellow RU SL not 5 minutes into the game. He had over 1100 hours in the game. I don't think you could have worse placements even if you tried.

 

map2a.jpg


I can only see one HAB, what am I missing?

Edited by Peerun

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22 minutes ago, Peerun said:

I can only see one HAB, what am I missing?

That both radio's (which eventually had HABs) were 300m off the point, but so close that it prevented us from putting down a FOB on the point. We had to cross 300m of OPEN ground to get the to the point. And to get a FOB on the point, we would have had to remove both of the existing ones. Needless to say we never even came close to capping Storage that round.

There's only 2 places you put radio's down on that point - and both are ON the point. You're either in the 2 story building on the SW corner (which we attempted but were defeated - and where the US ended up placing their FOB) or elsewhere in the compound - usually the northern side, however usually anywhere in there works. But you need bodies on the point, and them spending 5 minutes walking to the point every time they die means you'll never ever capture it - unless the other team is incompetent - and they weren't.

 

The SL wanted them as a vehicle rep station for his 30mm - which he used extremely effectively (just not nearly good enough at the start to secure the 2 story building in the SW corner). But there are many places to put vehicle repair stations that do not hinder your ability to still capture a point - especially on a map that big.

Edited by Ti0mat

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@Ti0mat

 

Squads 2 & 4 using the village HAB to spawn and walk alllll the way to gas station.....meanwhile my squad + SQ5 defending mosque....

 

235as1.jpg

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Just now, CptDirty said:

@Ti0mat

 

Squads 2 & 4 using the village HAB to spawn and walk alllll the way to gas station.....meanwhile my squad + SQ5 defending mosque....

 

235as1.jpg

Yep. Which is why you can't restrict SL kits based on hours played - because even SL's with tons of hours direct their squad's to do some really stupid shit.

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58 hours in the game, and yesterday was the first time while I have been a Squad Leader. Why? Because pretty much every game at the beginning, have no squads to join. Hardly anyone wants to be a SL, and also because if someone does make a squad, then instantly leaves and rejoins, and that can go on for about 5 players, or even 9... if it does not stop, then they leave for good, and join another squad, etc.

 

This time I decided to do it. No targets eliminated, or incapacitated. I focused on being SL all the way, and on the map. In the end we did win, but there is nothing to be proud of. I just happen to have good players in my team, and simple map. 

 

I am not sure if I did enjoy it. No communication with other SL's from my side, no FOB being built, no Logistic runs, just the basic means of warfare. Being SL means responsibility, but it also affects the other 8 players and weather they enjoy the game, or not. 

 

 

Edited by Materia

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7 hours ago, Materia said:

58 hours in the game, and yesterday was the first time while I have been a Squad Leader. Why? Because pretty much every game at the beginning, have no squads to join. Hardly anyone wants to be a SL, and also because if someone does make a squad, then instantly leaves and rejoins, and that can go on for about 5 players, or even 9... if it does not stop, then they leave for good, and join another squad, etc.

 

This time I decided to do it. No targets eliminated, or incapacitated. I focused on being SL all the way, and on the map. In the end we did win, but there is nothing to be proud of. I just happen to have good players in my team, and simple map. 

 

I am not sure if I did enjoy it. No communication with other SL's from my side, no FOB being built, no Logistic runs, just the basic means of warfare. Being SL means responsibility, but it also affects the other 8 players and weather they enjoy the game, or not. 

 

 

 

I never enjoy it. I'm nearing 200hrs and i've also been in your situation many times more then i'd like. No squads or a SL that leaves and BAM, you're SL. Last night my SL didn't even knew he needed supplies to build a hab, so i ran back to base, i repeat i ran half the map, to get a logi and then spoke to another newbie SL who then build a hab on a location i suggested after i ran him through where to find the hab in the build wheel. He might have been new but atleast he understood what i was asking of him.

So i'm not sure on the whole "SL for experienced players", since my actual SL had over 300hrs and the guy who actually managed to place it had a mere 50hrs.

 

When i'm SL, i also don't go frontline fighting, i know i can't manage the RP/FOB/players etc while i'm in combat or death.

 

You should feel proud that you managed your squad well and won the game, those 8 people under you probaly had a good time.

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You can normally tell how competent a squad leader is within the first 10 seconds of joining his squad, he should be on the ball with requesting medics, LAT and grenadier are filled, decided on the vehicles to take and should be giving a quick plan of action after he's coordinated with the other squads ("we're dropping one rifleman, playerx, at Y zone, everyone else will stay in the vehicles until we reach Z, which we're going to FOB and hold until the rest of the team advances past us")

 

If I'm not leading, I'll hop between squads at the beginning of the game until I get someone who does something like that. If you join a squad and the squad leader doesn't mumble a word during the entire countdown, leave.

 

Saying that, I don't want any in-game mechanic preventing someone from making a squad. There are plenty of people with far less played time who are more competent at squad leading than me, and there are some who have hundreds of hours more but who always pick fire support roles, are extremely competent with their class, but have no experience with squad leading itself.


The only mechanic I'd like to see related to making squads is a cooldown period before someone can transfer squad leader after making a squad. I'm sick of people making squads, then giving the SQL role to someone else so they can take a marksman kit. It throws the whole squad into disarray and it can lose the match before the prep timer is even up, having 25% of your team stuck at base because they're busy passing squad leader between each other because no one wants to do it.

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Coming back to the opening-thread:

 

Abilities & Skills you Need for beeing a fair SL:

 

1: Patience

2: Patience

3: Patience

( if you miss 1-3 you are in danger of suffering a stroke, heartattack or you start playing with the idea of Suicide-Homocide) 

4: Devotion to game tactics (overview and particular situation awareness)

5: Ability to change between macro- & micro-management

6: Will of efectivity and persistance to persue probably unpopular decicions

7: High Frustration tolerance

8: High Frustration tolerance

9: High Frustration tolerance

( if you are missing 7-9 you could encounter a heavy drugs & alcohol problem, if you do not already have one) 

 

You will need a load of communication experiance and knowledge of language to ensure that Intel is given and picked up correctly within your Squad and among the SL`s.

 

Coming back to ZXD_Lees Input on the first comment i strongly recommend everybody interested in beeing an SL join a player-community or clan and attend the regular offered SL-Trainings like we do in our clan.

 

   

 

Edited by A.Hofer

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9 minutes ago, Kerri said:

If you join a squad and the squad leader doesn't mumble a word during the entire countdown, leave.

Just a heads up during the countdown I believe it's more important to talk with the other SL's for the planning than it is to chit chat with the squad mates. I tell everyone:

"Hold comms and hold spawn I'm talking with the SL's I need 2 medics and 2 LATS".

I plan with the SL's while my squad remains radio silent until there's about 30-20 seconds left on the countdown to tell the squad where we're spawning and what vehicles we're taking and where we going:

"Everyone spawn at main, both medics with me in the logi the rest in the transport we're going to Storage"

 

...and let the rest unfold....

 

I actually enjoy Squad Leading more than I do playing any other kit. There's something about setting my squad and team up for success that is more rewarding than just kills. Also getting that tap on the back from my squad at the end of the round is a bonus :) 

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Quote

This time I decided to do it. No targets eliminated, or incapacitated. I focused on being SL all the way, and on the map. In the end we did win, but there is nothing to be proud of. I just happen to have good players in my team, and simple map. 

 

I am not sure if I did enjoy it. No communication with other SL's from my side, no FOB being built, no Logistic runs, just the basic means of warfare. Being SL means responsibility, but it also affects the other 8 players and weather they enjoy the game, or not. 

Great work Materia! SL in these types of games is definitely not easy and takes alot of skills that are not usually associated with fast pace FPS (communication, patience, planning)

 

I think a ranking system in the traditional sense is not really worthwhile... however, some system to inform Squad Leaders that a player is new to the game (less than 10-15 hours playtime?) would be a good thing for those patient Squad Leaders that dont mind taking in new players and showing them how the game is played.

 

Also, a way for Squad Leaders to mark themselves as "New player friendly" would also be a terrific tool to allow for better integration into the game for newer players.

 

Im sure many new players have started up Squad, joined a server where players are very unforgiving when it comes to new players, and that new player does not bother playing again based on one horrible experience.

 

So much of Squad depends on the quality of its Squad leaders, systems could be put in place to make it a more intuitive experience for  first time/new players, to help retain players that may eventually grow into seasoned vet players.

Edited by fuzzhead

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5 hours ago, CptDirty said:

Just a heads up during the countdown I believe it's more important to talk with the other SL's for the planning than it is to chit chat with the squad mates. I tell everyone:

"Hold comms and hold spawn I'm talking with the SL's I need 2 medics and 2 LATS".

I plan with the SL's while my squad remains radio silent until there's about 30-20 seconds left on the countdown to tell the squad where we're spawning and what vehicles we're taking and where we going:

"Everyone spawn at main, both medics with me in the logi the rest in the transport we're going to Storage"

 

...and let the rest unfold....

 

I actually enjoy Squad Leading more than I do playing any other kit. There's something about setting my squad and team up for success that is more rewarding than just kills. Also getting that tap on the back from my squad at the end of the round is a bonus :) 

I agree with the first part.

As for the latter... It can be very rewarding when the job is done well - win or lose. However it can be frustrating as **** at times when your squad doesn't listen, your team is incompetent and you have SL's who want to do the stupidest shit. I usually SL simply because no one else wants to do it (or they can't/shouldn't). But it gets tiring much faster then any other role in the game, and unless the rounds are easy rounds, after 3 or so I'm usually fed up with the idiocy.

 

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50 minutes ago, Ti0mat said:

I agree with the first part.

As for the latter... It can be very rewarding when the job is done well - win or lose. However it can be frustrating as **** at times when your squad doesn't listen, your team is incompetent and you have SL's who want to do the stupidest shit. I usually SL simply because no one else wants to do it (or they can't/shouldn't). But it gets tiring much faster then any other role in the game, and unless the rounds are easy rounds, after 3 or so I'm usually fed up with the idiocy.

 

Yeah...

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On 1/22/2018 at 12:01 PM, Ti0mat said:

Couldn't agree more. I mean look no further then these FOB placements by a fellow RU SL not 5 minutes into the game. He had over 1100 hours in the game. I don't think you could have worse placements even if you tried.

 

map2a.jpg

 

So while there were times I wish I could find out how many hours someone has (both as a player and an admin) - especially very low hour players (<20/50), because them squad leading is usually a disaster... restricting kits/squad leading abilities based on some number is a terrible idea.

I don't think that FOB layout is a bad idea. There are many reasons why you can have a FOB layout like that:

 

1.) If the enemy have already secured a point and you are having trouble getting on it, it is more effective to simply place a nearby FOB to help with the assault

 

2.) Having two radios around a control point has the advantages of having two spawn points near it. For maximum results, estimate the midpoint of the CAP, place a radio on opposite ends of the CP, then place your two HABs as close as possible to the CP while being on the edge of their radio range

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5 minutes ago, Cavazos said:

2.) Having two radios around a control point has the advantages of having two spawn points near it. For maximum results, estimate the midpoint of the CAP, place a radio on opposite ends of the CP, then place your two HABs as close as possible to the CP while being on the edge of their radio range

I can tell you that it IS POSSIBLE to place a FOB at the North East side of Storage and another one at the South West corner of Storage 

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On 1/22/2018 at 12:32 PM, CptDirty said:

@Ti0mat

 

Squads 2 & 4 using the village HAB to spawn and walk alllll the way to gas station.....meanwhile my squad + SQ5 defending mosque....

 

235as1.jpg

 

It is easy to criticize other people and other SLs when you look at a map and take 1 second to tell them what they SHOULD be doing.

 

What I see here is a round start in which one or two squads went to Village while yours went to the second objective. The enemy team is quick and has capped three flags so they are coordinated.

 

The Village squads had to take vehicles there to get a FOB but now they are walking and you usually don't place a FOB in Village unless you've had a lot of contacts.

 

So at least one squad had to fight to control Village and lost vehicles, and are now moving by foot to their next objective. They are not doing anything wrong.

 

I see this situation countless times. When I'm an SL I usually keep some attention on other squads while managing mine. Even as a rifleman I do this.

 

Always I hear people bad mouthing other squads and asking what they are doing. If they actually paid attention, they would see all the fights they've been in, all the delays they deal with. 

 

The only squads that are ever not helping the team are the ones standing in a circle looking at each other and messing around. That is the only squad that is ever not actually helping the team.

8 minutes ago, CptDirty said:

I can tell you that it IS POSSIBLE to place a FOB at the North East side of Storage and another one at the South West corner of Storage 

Noted.

Edited by Cavazos

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I SL a lot but lately it's been quite frustrating. It's rare to find SLs and squad members who know the meta.

 

Some of the more common problems:
- Squad members constantly asking for rallies despite the fact that one is either impossible or unnecessary, throwing temper tantrums when that's pointed out
- SLs creating mortar FOBs (I think I'm killed by mortars... maybe once every 2-3 weeks. They're worse than useless, except for shelling HABs)

- SLs not securing the relevant points

- Dumb FOB placement by SLs

- Marksman/AR/Rifleman kits, no Medics or LATs

 

For example, I think I can recall maybe two games on Sumari in the past 2 months where other SLs knew the proper way to place FOBs there (in a triangle formation, not one in the center that is easy to take down and blocks all other possible FOBs!). Thankfully, most times they know enough to let me place the bases.

 

The above frustrations also prevent me from properly enjoying play as a regular squad member, because every time I want to just enjoy the game I instead end up cringing at command failures

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