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Robin Sage

Will v10 ruin Squad?

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I'm just curious to see what people think. There are obviously two sides of players in squad, competitive and casual players with different ideas about what Squad is. I read the recap and a lot of it makes me think that the path squad is going down is going to kill the game for the competitive side of players at least. I am aware that OWI made this game and it's not "MY" game so I'm not saying they are wrong at all for making what they envision squad to be. 

I think v10 will kill the game for competitive players because of the changes they are making to AAS Specifically. AAS is the one game mode we have right now that is worth playing as insurgency is broken and Invasion is kind of a joke on most layers. Almost every clan in North America will leave a server if Kohat Invasion is played, and that speaks volumes to what we are left with playing. The "Rush" Meta was awesome because it gave good players a chance to hold off the enemy team while our team captured flags that were usually in contest and hard to get. It gave us a great risk vs reward system because we had to think about how many people and vehicles to throw at a first cap point. 

Because you simply don't like the "Rush" meta, you are forcing players to play the game the way you think it was meant to be played, which in my opinion goes against what squad is all about, the Freedom to approach each match any way you choose. It almost seems like every time good players figure out ways to make good plays, the less skilled players are rewarded by a comfort blanket of mechanics that prevent us from our strategy and we have to keep reinventing new ones, which is fine. 

The rush meta is dead now, which was a great strategy and helped competitive squad by producing different strategies to prepare for it. I don't understand why the skill gap between players is being forced closer and closer with mechanics. Bad players should be punished for being bad just as good players should be rewarded for being good. So even if we have a fireteam at a first cap and kill everyone but a vehicle with 2 people in it, they can just drive around as long as we have no LATs and still cap the first cap while laughing. Kind of ridiculous in my opinion. It turns AAS into a slug fest on the middle cap and there is really no freedom in how we approach the matches anymore in v10. 

However, I have not played v10 so I could be completely wrong. I'm just stating my opinion that I think Squad is going to see a lot of people leave if it continues down this road. 

Please try to not be toxic in this thread and keep it civil. No fanboys and no shit talking. 

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I think the rush meta needed to die. Its turned into a situation in which people seem to rush or bust. What always happens is both teams tend to rush each other and the first team to survive long enough on the rushed cap for reinforcements to arrive, is the one that wins. All a squad would need to do is kill the lone backcap man and block the whole enemy team. It completely kills the idea of emergent gameplay. Rushing is always a low-risk/high reward strategy that even just 1 squad did well, could determine the outcome of the game in the first 10 minutes.

 

The thing about this update is that rush is still viable but greatly reduced effectiveness unless you get at least 2 full squads to do it. Rushing should have always been a highly risky maneuver that could give the enemy an advantage in the mid capture points if failed and that's what this update does. If all everyone does is rush the enemy A or B cap, why even bother with C,D,E? We all may as well just play INF matches all day.

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51 minutes ago, Robin Sage said:

Bad players should be punished for being bad just as good players should be rewarded for being good.

This is the wrong part. Replace "players" with "squads" or "teams"

I don't want bad players to drag down the rest of the squad \ team but I also don't want to replace them with some wannabe-cyber-athletes. This worked good in PR. PR's spiritual successor, remember?

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1 hour ago, Robin Sage said:

I'm just curious to see what people think. There are obviously two sides of players in squad, competitive and casual players with different ideas about what Squad is. I read the recap and a lot of it makes me think that the path squad is going down is going to kill the game for the competitive side of players at least. I am aware that OWI made this game and it's not "MY" game so I'm not saying they are wrong at all for making what they envision squad to be. 

I think v10 will kill the game for competitive players because of the changes they are making to AAS Specifically. AAS is the one game mode we have right now that is worth playing as insurgency is broken and Invasion is kind of a joke on most layers. Almost every clan in North America will leave a server if Kohat Invasion is played, and that speaks volumes to what we are left with playing. The "Rush" Meta was awesome because it gave good players a chance to hold off the enemy team while our team captured flags that were usually in contest and hard to get. It gave us a great risk vs reward system because we had to think about how many people and vehicles to throw at a first cap point. 

Because you simply don't like the "Rush" meta, you are forcing players to play the game the way you think it was meant to be played, which in my opinion goes against what squad is all about, the Freedom to approach each match any way you choose. It almost seems like every time good players figure out ways to make good plays, the less skilled players are rewarded by a comfort blanket of mechanics that prevent us from our strategy and we have to keep reinventing new ones, which is fine. 

The rush meta is dead now, which was a great strategy and helped competitive squad by producing different strategies to prepare for it. I don't understand why the skill gap between players is being forced closer and closer with mechanics. Bad players should be punished for being bad just as good players should be rewarded for being good. So even if we have a fireteam at a first cap and kill everyone but a vehicle with 2 people in it, they can just drive around as long as we have no LATs and still cap the first cap while laughing. Kind of ridiculous in my opinion. It turns AAS into a slug fest on the middle cap and there is really no freedom in how we approach the matches anymore in v10. 

However, I have not played v10 so I could be completely wrong. I'm just stating my opinion that I think Squad is going to see a lot of people leave if it continues down this road. 

Please try to not be toxic in this thread and keep it civil. No fanboys and no shit talking. 

This was what I was kind of alluding to in Discord last night before I was rudely interrupted but I do agree with most of your points.

Edited by Zylfrax791
alluding not "eluding" lol...

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17 minutes ago, rincewind said:

This is the wrong part. Replace "players" with "squads" or "teams"

I don't want bad players to drag down the rest of the squad \ team but I also don't want to replace them with some wannabe-cyber-athletes. This worked good in PR. PR's spiritual successor, remember?

Players....Good players win matches in any FPS. You can have a shit squad leader with good shooters and still get work done. 

5 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

This was what I was kind of alluding to in Discord last night before I was rudely interrupted but I do agree with most of your points.

lol rip. 

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44 minutes ago, Nossa said:

I think the rush meta needed to die. Its turned into a situation in which people seem to rush or bust. What always happens is both teams tend to rush each other and the first team to survive long enough on the rushed cap for reinforcements to arrive, is the one that wins. All a squad would need to do is kill the lone backcap man and block the whole enemy team. It completely kills the idea of emergent gameplay. Rushing is always a low-risk/high reward strategy that even just 1 squad did well, could determine the outcome of the game in the first 10 minutes.

 

The thing about this update is that rush is still viable but greatly reduced effectiveness unless you get at least 2 full squads to do it. Rushing should have always been a highly risky maneuver that could give the enemy an advantage in the mid capture points if failed and that's what this update does. If all everyone does is rush the enemy A or B cap, why even bother with C,D,E? We all may as well just play INF matches all day.

I don't agree at all. 1 squad fighting 1 squad at a first cap, the best squad wins. I've been in squads where we had to fight a rush squad and we wiped them. It's about who is better than who, which should be how matches are won. Not mechanics holding players by the hands. 

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glad its been killed by the devs, more like PR spiritual successor now

it was a shit meta anyway

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41 minutes ago, Robin Sage said:

Players....Good players win matches in any FPS. You can have a shit squad leader with good shooters and still get work done. 

lol rip. 

We have enough "any FPS" and this isn't one of them

Edited by rincewind

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Though I can see your concern OWI have said it's the "Rush the first enemy flags" not every flag so I 'm thinking it's more capturing the mercy bleed flag. Not all flags as would stop rush complete.  Also there is a mass of game play knowledge that the DEV's have and it's not just for game making, but for playing. I cannot and will not believe that they would destroy the open box feel that Squad has. 

 

Have faith that the force is strong in them.  

 

  

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1 hour ago, Nossa said:

I think the rush meta needed to die. Its turned into a situation in which people seem to rush or bust. What always happens is both teams tend to rush each other and the first team to survive long enough on the rushed cap for reinforcements to arrive, is the one that wins. All a squad would need to do is kill the lone backcap man and block the whole enemy team. It completely kills the idea of emergent gameplay. Rushing is always a low-risk/high reward strategy that even just 1 squad did well, could determine the outcome of the game in the first 10 minutes.

 

The thing about this update is that rush is still viable but greatly reduced effectiveness unless you get at least 2 full squads to do it. Rushing should have always been a highly risky maneuver that could give the enemy an advantage in the mid capture points if failed and that's what this update does. If all everyone does is rush the enemy A or B cap, why even bother with C,D,E? We all may as well just play INF matches all day.

I agree. I think rushing should always be a viable strategy, but it should be riskier. It's mandatory now, and while it's survivable if you blow it if you're the better team, it generally leads to the better team winning the rush and the other team is in too weak of a position to ever recover. Boooorrrring. 

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Rushing is still possible, and if you have a solid coordinated squad, you can definitely do it, but I do agree with the dev's decision because a round that starts with rushing is fun for the squad that rushes, but it kind of ruins it for everyone else. I personally would rather see this game developed for "casual" players because that's the vast majority right now. People want to win, sure, but I think most players are more concerned with having a good match. The most fun I have when playing is when I'm an SL, I have a really good cohesive squad, and the team works together, even if we lose. Although clans are certainly present, and they might feel differently, I only ever see a full clan squad once every like 5 or 10 matches, so changing something for their interests might be unpopular among a large portion of the player base. Aside from that, there are also mods, so if two clans want a competitive game and they aren't happy with the changes, they can just use a mod server to play how they want. 

Edited by jellyswim

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Well...One way to make rushing early flags harder for the rushing team is to physically position the cap on a steep hill to slow down the vehicles coming from the enemy's most likely direction of travel. Either that or put roadblocks. This will effectively slow down a rushing team and favor capping by your own team. Such change won't completely stop rushing but in a way force both teams to focus on the mid-caps instead.

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According to this rushing doesn't exist in competitive Squad. I'm confused @Robin Sage and @salt. Steez. Which one of you is correct?

 

Also, as much as I can enjoy watching a match of ISKT or NAS or CCFN(thanks to @JohnnyOmaha) that isn't the future of Squad. Having hundreds of servers, full of tens of thousands of players all the time is where OWI should be heading and that simple change might be the first step to getting there.

Edited by PolishKruk

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By the sounds of it rushing won't be removed, rather you'll need to actually block the enemy from getting to the flag instead of having more dudes sitting somewhere in the arbitrary cap zone than the enemy does.

 

Besides, this isn't going to 'ruin Squad' for competitive players even if it did make rushing impossible. As with any game players will find a meta strategy that works and use it. I'm just hoping the next meta isn't as boring as rushing.

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Certainly a way to completely eliminate rushing would be an odd number of flags with everything preassigned except for the central point. Yay. Now we all pile into vics and drag race there and go into siege mode with fobs in the same stale spots... Shampoo, Rinse & Repeat. Sounds like a blast.

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just my opinions.

AAS in Squad is not proper AAS.

1 hour ago, Robin Sage said:

It turns AAS into a slug fest on the middle cap and there is really no freedom in how we approach the matches anymore in v10. 

There is no difference between the middle cap and last cap - simply the location of the cap - the rush can force the slug-fest just as well. I don't see how it inhibits your freedom at all, unless you choose it to.

2 hours ago, Robin Sage said:

The "Rush" Meta was awesome ... The rush meta is dead now, which was a great strategy and helped competitive squad by producing different strategies to prepare for it.

Disagree strongly. It is not a "strategy", let alone awesome. I'd be willing to bet that most teams would play the same coz-it-worked-last-time strategy onced Rushed, until it became unviable or well known - just like any other POI in any other game.

2 hours ago, Robin Sage said:

Because you simply don't like the "Rush" meta, you are forcing players to play the game the way you think it was meant to be played, which in my opinion goes against what squad is all about, the Freedom to approach each match any way you choose.

"Because you simply love to death, the "Rush" meta, .... "  

 

I believe OWI's move is a good one.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, PolishKruk said:

According to this rushing doesn't exist in competitive Squad. I'm confused @Robin Sage and @salt. Steez. Which one of you is correct?

 

Also, as much as I can enjoy watching a match of ISKT or NAS or CCFN(thanks to @JohnnyOmaha) that isn't the future of Squad. Having hundreds of servers, full of tens of thousands of players all the time is where OWI should be heading and that simple change might be the first step to getting there.

Rushing exists in competitive and casual squad. Rushing is dependent in competitive squad on which teams are fighting and the layers. 

 

Also if that's the future of squad, what is preventing it from being there now? Certainly not the Rush meta. Nobody looks at a copy of squad and decides not to buy it because of people rushing. 

Edited by Robin Sage

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Rushing requires little more than a basic understanding of the game mechanics and some hand-eye coordination from your driver. Let's not act like it's some kind of achievement to make your squad pile up into a vehicle fast enough at the start and drive to the enemy objective.

 

You're also not risking anything by rushing. Worst case scenario, you lose an insignificant amount of tickets (considering you know when to cut your losses). Best case scenario, you force the enemy to invest a great amount of manpower and time to root out your now entrenched and constantly respawning minions. A bonus - if the enemy team is uncoordinated enough and you've rushed them, you've just pretty much won the game! Yay you.

 

It's cheap, it gets old really quickly and I think Squad can do much better without it. Plus, rushing is not getting removed, it's just going to be harder - fine by me.

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Just now, MultiSquid said:

Rushing requires little more than a basic understanding of the game mechanics and some hand-eye coordination from your driver. Let's not act like it's some kind of achievement to make your squad pile up into a vehicle fast enough at the start and drive to the enemy objective.

 

You're also not risking anything by rushing. Worst case scenario, you lose an insignificant amount of tickets (considering you know when to cut your losses). Best case scenario, you force the enemy to inves a lot of manpower and time to root out your now entrenched and constantly respawning minions. A bonus - if the enemy team is uncoordinated enough and you've rushed them, you've just pretty much won the game! Yay you.

 

It's cheap, it gets old really quickly and I think Squad can do much better without it. Plus, rushing is not getting removed, it's just going to be harder - fine by me.

The way I see it taking a whole squad to rush the enemy's first cap is risky because you're taking a full squad out of the fight at your own first cap or contested flags in the middle. If you get wiped, you have a respawn timer which takes you out of the fight and gives the enemy a chance to start a bleed on you if they are fast enough. I'm not saying that squad is a horrible game, of course I'm still going to play it. I just think there are a lot of changes that are being implemented for either "Immersion" sake or to counteract players not reacting quick enough. 

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6 minutes ago, Robin Sage said:

Rushing exists in competitive and casual squad. Rushing is dependent in competitive squad on which teams are fighting and the layers. 

 

Also if that's the future of squad, what is preventing it from being there now? Certainly not the Rush meta. Nobody looks at a copy of squad and decides not to buy it because of people rushing. 

Please, you're just upset that as a rusher you just lost the initiative. OWI just started removing the whole "might makes right" meta that has plagues Squad since its inception. Besides, all you have to do to block a cap is literally sweep and clear it of enemies shouldn't that play into the hands of hardcore comp guys?

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I think people will get over it and will eventually appreciate V10 for what it is. It's a gamechanger indeed.

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1 minute ago, PolishKruk said:

Please, you're just upset that as a rusher you just lost the initiative. OWI just started removing the whole "might makes right" meta that has plagues Squad since its inception. Besides, all you have to do to block a cap is literally sweep and clear it of enemies shouldn't that play into the hands of hardcore comp guys?

Why are you being salty? I don't rush every single match so I don't consider myself a "Rusher", I just don't agree with changes to help bad players or squads or teams whatever term you prefer. The beauty of squad is being able to do whatever you want to try to win a match. Changing a viable tactic like blocking caps undermines that regardless of how you want to see it. Let's just agree to disagree because you were a DPG guy and banned a whole clan because they got their logis blown up on a bridge to block traffic from coming into the fight. That's a smart move and entirely representative of what I'm trying to say about approaching matches however you choose to. If someone is smart enough to figure that out, they should be rewarded, not banned or forced to play a certain way. 

Edited by Robin Sage

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If vehicle wrecks could be destroyed maybe it could be a smart move, but since they cannot be destroy or beiing removed, it will not fun at all to incurr in such tactic. Either place a mine right outside a main base road, it is smart but is nott fun when your vehicle get destroy. There are things that are not fun, and find 3 squad on your second uncappable flag is not fun either.

 

From my POV a good squad / faction is the one that manages to discover the roots of a flag heavily defended by the enemy faction, not by those that only rush.

 

Squad will be better withou the "Rush the 2nd - 1st enemy flag" mentality. Definitely

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