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N. Farage

Some thoughts from a new player

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I'm pretty new to squad, so I thought I'd give some feedback based on my first week of playing. I don't have anything specific but I'll list a number of observations I've run into so far.

 

-Most importantly, shooting seems to be quite easy in the game. It usually only takes me 2-4 shots to down my target, even if I am surprised and on the move. This means firefights generally last less than a second, which is quite different than I expected from a milsim. Even in urban fighting my surroundings tend to be silent with occasional potshots since suppression and inaccuracy don't exist. I think the game could be improved by making kills more difficult to achieve.

 

-Medic system seems to be better than the one in PR. It's simpler for the medic, and separating hit points and bleeding is a great improvement.

 

-The vehicle claim system is a bit misleading. I don't think you can submit claims anywhere but the squad leader gets a claim accept interface in the map? Shouldn't it be hidden if the system is not implemented yet?

 

-Capping seems to be a very easy way to win a game. A lot of games end in one side losing a single point and then getting steamrolled to the last flag before they have a chance to organize defence on any flag. Perhaps some mechanic could be useful to slow down capping, such as unlocking the next flag after a few minutes' delay? It could be that I've just ended up on a server populated by imbecilles, but it has happened several times already.

 

-Vehicles seem to be very durable. Firing a HEAT at a tinfoil-armored BTR and seeing it scoot off practically undamaged is quite frustrating. Spending a full squad's load of RPGs to destroy a single APC doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Perhaps this is just a stand-in while we're waiting for heavier vehicles, but I find it very jarring personally.

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The gunplay seems very realistic to me and it's just going to get better with v10. A lot of new folks make the opposite observation that it's very difficult to shoot but I don't think they realize that body stance and stamina figure into the equation.

 

Regarding vehicle claiming I'm sure what you're referring to as it seems pretty basic to me. Squad leader can approve a vehicle request anywhere on the map and if I remember correctly with a recent patch can even approve when dead. Where things get janky imho is when somebody abandons a high value vehicle on the battlefield and you drive a transport out to retrieve it and sometimes you can't claim it because you left your other vehicle. This doesn't happen every time but seems inconsistent.

 

What you're seeing with the flags and people's reluctancy to leave irrelevant flags seems related to several factors. First is players having this inherent "nesting" behavior related to the flag, secondly guarding a FOB/HAB, thirdly stubborn people that simply don't want to suicide & respawn and last but most importantly players extreme reluctance at switching to another squad that has a fresh rally on the relevant point in fear of losing their "kit". Most people would rather lose the game than lose their precious kit. Not sure why.

Edited by Zylfrax791
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3 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

What you're seeing with the flags and people's reluctancy to leave irrelevant flags seems related to several factors. First is players having this inherent "nesting" behavior related to the flag, secondly guarding a FOB/HAB, thirdly stubborn people that simply don't want to suicide & respawn and last but most importantly players extreme reluctance at switching to another squad that has a fresh rally on the relevant point in fear of losing their "kit". Most people would rather lose the game than lose their precious kit. Not sure why.

Firstly, I don't support losing games over notions of realism or whatever. With that said, I'm curious -- How do you feel about the gameplay you're describing? Do you think it aligns with Squad's goal of "capturing combat realism through communication and teamplay?" In an ideal completed game, would you still want such tactics to be in wide use?

Edited by YankeeSamurai

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4 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

most importantly players extreme reluctance at switching to another squad that has a fresh rally on the relevant point in fear of losing their "kit". Most people would rather lose the game than lose their precious kit. Not sure why.

I'm guessing if this strategy gains a lot of traction, the system may be changed to be similar to in PR, where you can only join squads in the following circumstances:

- You have just joined the server (yet to spawn in), and can change squads to your heart's content until you first spawn in

- You are alive (spawned in)

 

As it currently stands, what you are proposing is a legitimate tactic, although one that I think is not used much because people like their squad rather than caring so much about their kit. Finding a good squad leader (who can wrangle 8 unknown players into a cohesive squad) is quite a lottery, so when one finds a leader who is half decent, there is a real hesitation to jump squads just for the opportunity to spawn a bit closer to the "action", if that makes sense. 

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1 hour ago, YankeeSamurai said:

Firstly, I don't support losing games over notions of realism or whatever. With that said, I'm curious -- How do you feel about the gameplay you're describing? Do you think it aligns with Squad's goal of "capturing combat realism through communication and teamplay?" In an ideal completed game, would you still want such tactics to be in wide use?

Realism would be no Star Trek transporter HAB's or Rallies and a FOB would be simply for building fortifications and assembling weapons. When you were wounded you would have to wait for a medic or respawn at base after a long timer and then take transport back to the front.

 

As far as the gameplay I'm describing goes I learned most of it by observing the metas that clans use in their pubstomping so its already in widespread use afaik. As I've stated previously I think that the rules for any video game should built into the game itself. Logically, any strategies or tactics that players can devise and utilize within the game should be considered fair gameplay.

 

I mean let's be honest here. People prefer the challenge of matching wits with other people in competition instead of playing against A.I. In that respect, I feel that this is primary attraction of Squad to most people as certainly there are much more functional and exponentially better looking games on the market.

 

That said, stifling players gameplay ideas with rigid linear rulesets in order to promote "fairness" degrades the primary feature that Squad offers.

 

 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

As I've stated previously I think that the rules for any video game should built into the game itself.
Logically, any strategies or tactics that players can devise and utilize within the game should be considered fair gameplay.

Does that include when we could build unkillable fobs under-water because it was "part of the game" at that time? 

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1 hour ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Realism would be no Star Trek transporter HAB's or Rallies and a FOB would be simply for building fortifications and assembling weapons. When you were wounded you would have to wait for a medic or respawn at base after a long timer and then take transport back to the front.

 

As far as the gameplay I'm describing goes I learned most of it by observing the metas that clans use in their pubstomping so its already in widespread use afaik. As I've stated previously I think that the rules for any video game should built into the game itself. Logically, any strategies or tactics that players can devise and utilize within the game should be considered fair gameplay.

 

I mean let's be honest here. People prefer the challenge of matching wits with other people in competition instead of playing against A.I. In that respect, I feel that this is primary attraction of Squad to most people as certainly there are much more functional and exponentially better looking games on the market.

 

That said, stifling players gameplay ideas with rigid linear rulesets in order to promote "fairness" degrades the primary feature that Squad offers.

 

 

 

 

Right, I just want to state that I'm in no way advocating for Squad to take a turn toward hardcore milsim. I'm interested in whether players view meta tactics (such as suiciding and switching squads to respawn at a better rally) as enhancing or detracting from the overall experience of playing Squad.

 

I think most would say that it's possible to strike a balance between realism and fun gameplay. A game can deliver an impression of "realism" without being wholly realistic. Regarding meta tactics, I think many fall a little too hard on the gamey side of the scale. If you were a Squad dev, would you take steps to stomp out the more exploitative meta tactics, or would you let them persist?

Edited by YankeeSamurai

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3 hours ago, Psyrus said:

Does that include when we could build unkillable fobs under-water because it was "part of the game" at that time? 

If I'm not mistaken I saw one on the map in the river in Al Basrah over the weekend so afaik they still exist.

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2 hours ago, YankeeSamurai said:

Right, I just want to state that I'm in no way advocating for Squad to take a turn toward hardcore milsim. I'm interested in whether players view meta tactics (such as suiciding and switching squads to respawn at a better rally) as enhancing or detracting from the overall experience of playing Squad.

 

I think most would say that it's possible to strike a balance between realism and fun gameplay. A game can deliver an impression of "realism" without being wholly realistic. Regarding meta tactics, I think many fall a little too hard on the gamey side of the scale. If you were a Squad dev, would you take steps to stomp out the more exploitative meta tactics, or would you let them persist?

Sure. I'll answer your question with a minimum of diversion but still focusing on reality. I think regardless of any changes made within each version of the game dedicated groups of players with plenty of time on their hands will adapt, evolve and always figure out new strategies and tactics that other more refined players find "questionable".

 

That's the nature of such a complex game and what makes Squad so unpredictable and fun so I don't think I could ever give a yes or no answer as to whether or not I feel such things are right or wrong. In contrast, when you play Chess there are clearly defined rules that never change.

 

Obviously something like glitching through a wall is an exploit for example and I've reported anything I find like that and will continue to so but on the other hand blocking bottlenecks with a vehicle, putting mines on roads near main or running an entire 40 person team without a single medic all seem valid to me.

 

 

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On 11/28/2017 at 4:30 PM, Zylfrax791 said:

What you're seeing with the flags and people's reluctancy to leave irrelevant flags seems related to several factors. First is players having this inherent "nesting" behavior related to the flag, secondly guarding a FOB/HAB, thirdly stubborn people that simply don't want to suicide & respawn and last but most importantly players extreme reluctance at switching to another squad that has a fresh rally on the relevant point in fear of losing their "kit". Most people would rather lose the game than lose their precious kit. Not sure why.

We did this last night in a mini scrim (11v12). Once bc our SL got disconnected right at the start as we were in the middle of attempting a rush. Then later on as different SL's had different needs and were in different area's.

 

But in a pub game? It's rarely done. I could care less if another squad has a RP in a better spot - I'm only leaving my squad if I'm unhappy with my SL, and there's a different one available, or I've decided to just do it myself. It's not because I want to keep my kit, but because I struggle to handle idiot SLs.

And honestly they shouldn't have to change squads, nor should it be suggested as a "good plan". If your SL is an idiot, then change. But there are other ways to accomplish what you're looking for, and it starts with just being aware of how the game is played, and what's going to happen when the middle flag becomes neutral and your team has no one on/near it. Clearly the other team is going to get the flag, and that means you need to move. But many do not. I was playing a pub game this week, where Storage on Yeho1 was half way capped by the other team and we'd just lost our FOB there. And my SL still insisted on taking a full squad and the 30mm BTR and a regular BTR down to Novo to "just see what happens" even after I'd told him repeatedly that we could never neut it in time, but that if he came to Storage we just might be able to save things. Nope, he ignored me, and went to Novo, "started capping" and in less than 10 seconds, Storage was capped by the US. That's just an SL who's an idiot, and short of SLing yourself, there's not much you can do about it.
 

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On 11/28/2017 at 1:54 PM, N. Farage said:

-Most importantly, shooting seems to be quite easy in the game. It usually only takes me 2-4 shots to down my target, even if I am surprised and on the move. This means firefights generally last less than a second, which is quite different than I expected from a milsim. Even in urban fighting my surroundings tend to be silent with occasional potshots since suppression and inaccuracy don't exist. I think the game could be improved by making kills more difficult to achieve.

 

-Capping seems to be a very easy way to win a game. A lot of games end in one side losing a single point and then getting steamrolled to the last flag before they have a chance to organize defence on any flag. Perhaps some mechanic could be useful to slow down capping, such as unlocking the next flag after a few minutes' delay? It could be that I've just ended up on a server populated by imbecilles, but it has happened several times already.

 

-Vehicles seem to be very durable. Firing a HEAT at a tinfoil-armored BTR and seeing it scoot off practically undamaged is quite frustrating. Spending a full squad's load of RPGs to destroy a single APC doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Perhaps this is just a stand-in while we're waiting for heavier vehicles, but I find it very jarring personally.

Just to touch on a couple of things.

- Firefights/shooting. Stance and stamina... paying attention to this will make your shots a lot easier. As for how silent it is/isn't... guess it depends on the map and who's playing... but for the most part, if there's a FOB/HAB or a contested flag there, there's going to be a firefight, and it's a lot more than a shot or two.

- Vehicles. Yeah, it sucks that to take out a striker, you need both your LATs working together to get off both their shots (and to not miss). That part I can't stand. Especially when BTRs only take 3 hits. In part I get why they do it (those things are valuable ticket wise, and shouldn't be able to be taken out stupidly easy)... but it's still a pain. Maybe they'll find a sweet spot in the future.

 

- As I touched on above, you need to be aware of what's going on. If you're losing a key flag, and have no fall back plan, you're going to get steamrolled. And honestly? You should get rolled. One can usually look at the map, look at the cap and quickly figure out if they're going to be able to stop the cap or not. And then that SL needs to communicate that with other SLs (or they need to be aware enough to ask). These flags are not getting capped immediately... it's what 2 minutes to neutral and another 2 minutes to cap? And with a little warning/insight, that should give SLs enough time to realize what's going on and where they need to get their guys. Sometimes if they're really out of position, that means all of them committing suicide and re-spawning in a better location (or at main where the logi is). Yes it affects their score - and worse will make them wait 90 seconds or so to spawn (why most won't do it), but when you're half way across the map, sometimes you have to suck it up. But most won't, and will insist on walking for 3 flags. I had 2 squads lastnight that insisted on walking from a shit FOB near the other teams first flag to our 2nd flag because they were idiots. They probably spent at least 5 minutes just walking. When your team does stupid shit like that, there's not much that can be done about it, nor should the developers put in mechanics to slow the game down to compensate for this.

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On ‎29‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 11:31 AM, Zylfrax791 said:

Obviously something like glitching through a wall is an exploit for example and I've reported anything I find like that and will continue to so but on the other hand blocking bottlenecks with a vehicle, putting mines on roads near main or running an entire 40 person team without a single medic all seem valid to me.

 

 

the bottlekneck thing is valid if it also allows the opposing team to remove said block ... if you can remove defenses then a vehicle should be 'dug' away as it could be used as an effective barricade which is no bad thing...

 

On ‎28‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 9:54 PM, N. Farage said:

Capping seems to be a very easy way to win a game. A lot of games end in one side losing a single point and then getting steamrolled to the last flag before they have a chance to organize defence on any flag. Perhaps some mechanic could be useful to slow down capping, such as unlocking the next flag after a few minutes' delay? It could be that I've just ended up on a server populated by imbecilles, but it has happened several times already.

 

-Vehicles seem to be very durable. Firing a HEAT at a tinfoil-armored BTR and seeing it scoot off practically undamaged is quite frustrating. Spending a full squad's load of RPGs to destroy a single APC doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Perhaps this is just a stand-in while we're waiting for heavier vehicles, but I find it very jarring personally.

 

The game is very much about ticket attrition more than flag capture... momentum is a huge part of it, it comes down to how effective the opposition are and of course the more flags you lose the faster the ticket attrition... I would prefer to see no ticket attrition for flag captures but build / allocation pts that can be used on the fob / claim a vehicle or if desired added to your teams/squads spawn counter... the only ticket attrition should be through deaths.. 

 

the problem with making vehicles  less robust is the fact that the game is based around ticket losses, the game would be even faster with less 'armoured' vehicles .. its to easy to get close and take one out imo (HAT) .... as its effectively a TDM people really don't care about the vehicles its not impacting them if they lose one, and another spawns...   if the squad had to work hard to take a flag and then think about how they allocate the 'win' pts then perhaps they would be more appreciative of their vehicle. there should be limited vehicles and the gradual attrition of vehicles will put the team on the back foot and have a more effective shift of the front line where those that look after them become more powerful.

 

and btw... don't you dare take your European pension you hypocrite....;)

Edited by embecmom

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2 hours ago, embecmom said:

the bottlekneck thing is valid if it also allows the opposing team to remove said block ... if you can remove defenses then a vehicle should be 'dug' away as it could be used as an effective barricade which is no bad thing...

 

IRL you'd need a tracked heavy recovery vehicle to remove any burned out vehicle. That would be a really cool feature to add. It could also be used to flip friendly vehicles back over too.

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