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It’s not long really most games take around 3 years and with a small development team and a new engine I think they’ve done pretty well especially as the game was pretty dam good from the get go 

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7 hours ago, ZXD_Lee said:

It’s not long really most games take around 3 years and with a small development team and a new engine I think they’ve done pretty well especially as the game was pretty dam good from the get go 

Well they're beyond three years now and I don't know what you consider small but last time I heard OWI I thought was a minimum of 30 developers. I don't consider that small at all. Maybe it is in the software industry but compared to all businesses in North America it would definitely be on the larger side of the scale. 

 

But for me, and a few others, it's not so much the time that is the problem but rather how OWI has chosen to market their content. In my opinion it does a disservice to your customer base to constantly highlight content but still not release it. If something isn't going to be released to the public within three months then we shouldn't know about it. We don't need to know about it. They've treated early access almost like an extended Kickstarter by saying "oh look what we're going to do" when the players only care about what they've done.

 

That being said, I'm still very excited for release but I got a little too involved in the process of Squad and burned out so now I'm more than happy to keep an eye on things from a distance and wait for the final product.

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9 hours ago, PolishKruk said:

Well they're beyond three years now and I don't know what you consider small but last time I heard OWI I thought was a minimum of 30 developers. I don't consider that small at all. Maybe it is in the software industry but compared to all businesses in North America it would definitely be on the larger side of the scale. 

 

But for me, and a few others, it's not so much the time that is the problem but rather how OWI has chosen to market their content. In my opinion it does a disservice to your customer base to constantly highlight content but still not release it. If something isn't going to be released to the public within three months then we shouldn't know about it. We don't need to know about it. They've treated early access almost like an extended Kickstarter by saying "oh look what we're going to do" when the players only care about what they've done.

 

That being said, I'm still very excited for release but I got a little too involved in the process of Squad and burned out so now I'm more than happy to keep an eye on things from a distance and wait for the final product.

30 developers in a company that works in game development is very small. OWI currently have around 40 devs, about half of them are part time employees, as they have other life commitments outside of OWI.

The average number of game devs working on a AAA title is around 150 - 300. DICE has 600+ developers split between their active titles in development. Bethesda has 180 devs working on their title(s). 

3 years is pretty normal for game development. Streamline games like Battlefield, Assassins creed etc have all been in planning/alpha development at least 1 & 1/2 years before their teaser trailers hit the internet. 6 - 12 months of further development before full release. Then a following 6 - 12 months of extra development after full release in the form of DLC. 

It's a double edged sword when it comes to recaps, and showing what the other devs are working on - outside of the main patch they want to release. The common responses are :
- OMG Devs are lazy and doing nothing! (This happens when devs don't show anything)
- STOP TEASING US, THIS WAS SHOWN MONTHS AGO (This happens when devs show what's happening behind the scenes)

Developers all don't work on the same thing at the same time. For example : Artist finish their part of V10 and have moved on to other projects for future patches, while programmers are still doing all the technical stuff for V10. Next racap shows current modelling and texture work for future content the artist are working on. 

It's a good way to keep the community in the loop of what's happening, and what is being worked on. One of the biggest complaints in todays gaming industry is, the players complaining the devs aren't transparent enough or don't show of things going on behind the scenes. But when they do - Like I said above, double edged sword. 


 

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2 hours ago, Dubs said:

3 years is pretty normal for game development

^ This 

2 hours ago, Dubs said:

- OMG Devs are lazy and doing nothing! (This happens when devs don't show anything)
- STOP TEASING US, THIS WAS SHOWN MONTHS AGO (This happens when devs show what's happening behind the scenes)

Just.... Just read what @Dubs said. Very well written!

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13 hours ago, Dubs said:


It's a double edged sword when it comes to recaps, and showing what the other devs are working on - outside of the main patch they want to release. The common responses are :
- OMG Devs are lazy and doing nothing! (This happens when devs don't show anything)
- STOP TEASING US, THIS WAS SHOWN MONTHS AGO (This happens when devs show what's happening behind the scenes)



 

no thats not it at all, it's teased but implementation never takes place, and then everyone wonders where the **** that thing went. for example. javelin shown off last year, but we havent heard a word about it since, theres no follow up.

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7 hours ago, XB0CT said:

no thats not it at all, it's teased but implementation never takes place, and then everyone wonders where the **** that thing went. for example. javelin shown off last year, but we havent heard a word about it since, theres no follow up.

You need to realise that "being worked on" is not something for the imminent future reference... Something talked about while in the meeting doesn't get to major priority as per say....

Edited by samwiseOrigin

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9 hours ago, XB0CT said:

no thats not it at all, it's teased but implementation never takes place, and then everyone wonders where the **** that thing went. for example. javelin shown off last year, but we havent heard a word about it since, theres no follow up.

This is just a matter of people misinterpreting the existence of monthly recaps. A lot of people see things in recaps and think it's finish 100% ready to be implemented in to the game. It's not.

Again, recaps don't mean what is shown is 100% complete and ready to be thrown into the game. Some content could be held back to not break game balance. Some content(like shotguns) are held back because the current code doesn't allow for single reloading - so that's on hold until the new animation system is ready, so it can allow single reloading. Some content is held back waiting for other systems to be ready.





 

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On 11/13/2017 at 6:42 PM, Dubs said:

Developers all don't work on the same thing at the same time. For example : Artist finish their part of V10 and have moved on to other projects for future patches, while programmers are still doing all the technical stuff for V10. Next racap shows current modelling and texture work for future content the artist are working on. 

Yep! It's definitely important to note that content in recaps may very well be a WIP that an artist was able to capture a render for *that day*. They may still have days or weeks of work before it gets passed on to the next part of the team to continue work. As an example, there might be a building asset prepared for a map. Once that's done, it has to wait for said map to be ready for buildings: terrain might be done, lighting. After that, it still has to have layers added, QA done, bugs fixed, new layers created and tested. A change in the animation system might mean a choke point is no longer a choke point, and then the mappers have to take another look, say. That doesn't necessarily take into account someone being pulled away to help on an urgent bug, say. (Heads-up: I'm abstracting the process here, actual mileage may vary.)

 

Even with that in mind, we think it's important to showcase what the teams are doing. They also afford the opportunity to get YOUR feedback on things like model accuracy, or input into new systems we're thinking about. And... heck, we love ya'll and appreciate your passion.

The above is a hypothetical example, but hopefully it gives a better idea of what something shown off in a recap can be.

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Anyways I’ve had the best gaming experience of my life in Squad and I’ve been gaming since 1984!!!! 

 

I still really enjoy it and any updates are just a bonus for me 

Edited by ZXD_Lee

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Maybe we get V10 as a christmas present this year :)

I hope the game will be never finished so we get every month updates.

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On 14/11/2017 at 5:40 AM, samwiseOrigin said:

^ This 

Just.... Just read what @Dubs said. Very well written!

Yeah I don't think I could of been so restrained >:(

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On 11/13/2017 at 12:03 PM, PolishKruk said:

Well they're beyond three years now and I don't know what you consider small but last time I heard OWI I thought was a minimum of 30 developers. I don't consider that small at all. Maybe it is in the software industry but compared to all businesses in North America it would definitely be on the larger side of the scale. 

 

But for me, and a few others, it's not so much the time that is the problem but rather how OWI has chosen to market their content. In my opinion it does a disservice to your customer base to constantly highlight content but still not release it. If something isn't going to be released to the public within three months then we shouldn't know about it. We don't need to know about it. They've treated early access almost like an extended Kickstarter by saying "oh look what we're going to do" when the players only care about what they've done.

 

That being said, I'm still very excited for release but I got a little too involved in the process of Squad and burned out so now I'm more than happy to keep an eye on things from a distance and wait for the final product.

i agree with what is said here since as of waiting and waiting and i dropped alot of money via kickstarter years back im going off what i was told on kickstarter marketing.

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On 11/13/2017 at 1:03 PM, PolishKruk said:

Well they're beyond three years now and I don't know what you consider small but last time I heard OWI I thought was a minimum of 30 developers. I don't consider that small at all. Maybe it is in the software industry but compared to all businesses in North America it would definitely be on the larger side of the scale. 

 

But for me, and a few others, it's not so much the time that is the problem but rather how OWI has chosen to market their content. In my opinion it does a disservice to your customer base to constantly highlight content but still not release it. If something isn't going to be released to the public within three months then we shouldn't know about it. We don't need to know about it. They've treated early access almost like an extended Kickstarter by saying "oh look what we're going to do" when the players only care about what they've done.

 

That being said, I'm still very excited for release but I got a little too involved in the process of Squad and burned out so now I'm more than happy to keep an eye on things from a distance and wait for the final product.

Going to respectfully say that I completely disagree with the idea that OWI shouldn't preview content that still has a long period left in the pipeline. While I hate the folks who say, "Oh look at me I am a backer! Tell me everything!..." I will say that I do believe games that follow this model do have a responsibility to occasionally keep those who took a gamble up to date.  

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Honestly I pretty much consider the current version of Squad to be mostly finished game on many levels. The game is basic and yet still really fun. Especially once the new animation system is added it will just be an icing on the cake. Personally I think adding a bunch more features and assets will completely destroy the equilibrium that as been achieved thus far and turn even more folks off with major delays to work out all the bugs. Probably give Russia and USA a few tanks and maybe a couple artillery pieces and throw in the towel.

 

Realistically speaking, I'm beginning to think that adding aerial assets to Squad is a complete dead end. I say this because I played the heli mod and even the big maps are way too small for this extra dimension to be added. It was simply dumb how quick you could get to the edge of the map and once you're elevated the illusion of being grounded "somewhere" goes away. My feeling is I think it would be a game breaker and open up a whole new can of worms that would take another year or two to finish by having to remake the current maps much larger and reduce the details and/or make new larger map from scratch. Like I said, a saner course of action would be finish v10, add a few more toys and maybe the Brits then wrap it up and call it a day around the holidays.

 

Then after the new year start a completely new game from the ground up using a different engine that can handle all these big ideas and start by putting all the features in at the beginning instead of this piecemeal approach which invariably causes people to lose interest over the course of time. I think players in general are getting fatigued by this "play-as-you-go" development process which would explain why out of the 550,000 concurrent Squad owners only around 2500 play on any given day.

 

New engine, new game, new name and go back to the old development process where you spend a year or two making an actual finished game and then release a free teaser demo level and then the full game a month or so later. I'm all for giving this Kickstarter method a boot in the crotch. I pay the neighborhood kid after he mows my lawn and not before. I doubt I will ever buy another early access game again even though I consider myself lucky with Squad because its close enough to Delta Force that I enjoy it and don't regret paying a measily $40 for it however I've been majorly burned on previous "Early Access" Shovelware. 

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2 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Honestly I pretty much consider the current version of Squad to be mostly finished game on many levels. The game is basic and yet still really fun. Especially once the new animation system is added it will just be an icing on the cake. Personally I think adding a bunch more features and assets will completely destroy the equilibrium that as been achieved thus far and turn even more folks off with major delays to work out all the bugs.

This is what people said when Squad was an infantry-only game. "Squad is good as it is. Vehicles will ruin the game." Now vehicles are in and no one is saying thay we didn't need them. Just let the game grow and develop.

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5 hours ago, fatalsushi said:

This is what people said when Squad was an infantry-only game. "Squad is good as it is. Vehicles will ruin the game." Now vehicles are in and no one is saying thay we didn't need them. Just let the game grow and develop.

Well for the record I wasn't one of them. However, on Forest & Sumari vehicles are kind of silly as you can drive across the entire map quite quickly. Same with Fools Road, it's just become a drag racing game who can get to Popanov first on that one layer for example.

 

Now factor in flight. As soon as you ascend you can see the edges of the map and in like 30 seconds you're at the boundaries which again looks and feels silly. The solution then is much much larger maps which will kill performance unless you subtract from somewhere else. I simply don't think the Unreal Engine can handle 60 kilometer maps with 100 players and choppers and still be functional. Arma and Battlefield do it with tricks like islands in vast oceans.

 

I'm not saying it can't be done however it will take a considerable amount of time and as we've seen patience isn't really a virtue in the community.

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11 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Honestly I pretty much consider the current version of Squad to be mostly finished game on many levels. The game is basic and yet still really fun. Especially once the new animation system is added it will just be an icing on the cake. Personally I think adding a bunch more features and assets will completely destroy the equilibrium that as been achieved thus far and turn even more folks off with major delays to work out all the bugs. Probably give Russia and USA a few tanks and maybe a couple artillery pieces and throw in the towel.

 

Realistically speaking, I'm beginning to think that adding aerial assets to Squad is a complete dead end. I say this because I played the heli mod and even the big maps are way too small for this extra dimension to be added. It was simply dumb how quick you could get to the edge of the map and once you're elevated the illusion of being grounded "somewhere" goes away. My feeling is I think it would be a game breaker and open up a whole new can of worms that would take another year or two to finish by having to remake the current maps much larger and reduce the details and/or make new larger map from scratch. Like I said, a saner course of action would be finish v10, add a few more toys and maybe the Brits then wrap it up and call it a day around the holidays.

 

Then after the new year start a completely new game from the ground up using a different engine that can handle all these big ideas and start by putting all the features in at the beginning instead of this piecemeal approach which invariably causes people to lose interest over the course of time. I think players in general are getting fatigued by this "play-as-you-go" development process which would explain why out of the 550,000 concurrent Squad owners only around 2500 play on any given day.

 

New engine, new game, new name and go back to the old development process where you spend a year or two making an actual finished game and then release a free teaser demo level and then the full game a month or so later. I'm all for giving this Kickstarter method a boot in the crotch. I pay the neighborhood kid after he mows my lawn and not before. I doubt I will ever buy another early access game again even though I consider myself lucky with Squad because its close enough to Delta Force that I enjoy it and don't regret paying a measily $40 for it however I've been majorly burned on previous "Early Access" Shovelware. 

Game is nowhere near done lol, I would ask for a refund if they said they were done after V10

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2 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Well for the record I wasn't one of them. However, on Forest & Sumari vehicles are kind of silly as you can drive across the entire map quite quickly. Same with Fools Road, it's just become a drag racing game who can get to Popanov first on that one layer for example.

 

Now factor in flight. As soon as you ascend you can see the edges of the map and in like 30 seconds you're at the boundaries which again looks and feels silly. The solution then is much much larger maps which will kill performance unless you subtract from somewhere else. I simply don't think the Unreal Engine can handle 60 kilometer maps with 100 players and choppers and still be functional. Arma and Battlefield do it with tricks like islands in vast oceans.

 

I'm not saying it can't be done however it will take a considerable amount of time and as we've seen patience isn't really a virtue in the community.

Patience isn't a virtue of loudmouths on the interwebz. I have dozens of clan members who pledged and have barely played as they are waiting for a much more feature complete game. 

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On 12/2/2017 at 4:46 AM, SIDEKILLER said:

i agree with what is said here since as of waiting and waiting and i dropped alot of money via kickstarter years back im going off what i was told on kickstarter marketing.

I understand OWI's hesitation to release any kind of timeline or roadmap but I believe we have come such a distance from the kickstarter that OWI should share with us just what they picture to be Squad v1.0. 

On 12/4/2017 at 3:51 PM, Tennessee said:

Going to respectfully say that I completely disagree with the idea that OWI shouldn't preview content that still has a long period left in the pipeline. While I hate the folks who say, "Oh look at me I am a backer! Tell me everything!..." I will say that I do believe games that follow this model do have a responsibility to occasionally keep those who took a gamble up to date.  

To me its all about managing hype. Will OWI deliver on what they've promised or will they come up short? I don't know. I hope they do. But this is a big reason why I have not left a review for Squad. You wouldn't review a car before its built, would you?

 

Its up to OWI to keep us interested during this process. I personally feel like they could do a much better job managing the hype with this game. I Don't disagree with you either, some things can be shown off during a process. But what OWI chooses to show and not show personally drives me bonkers. Take the last two maps for example, Narva and Mestia. Was there ever any word about these two maps during their production life(if there was I apologize for missing it. I don't read every snippet from every dev. If one or both of these showed up in a recap within the last six months please let me know)? Why hide something of that scale through production yet share images of comparatively simple shotguns years ago?

 

I like Squad's potential but after two years and a stint as a community tester and starting and running an extremely popular server I'm burnt out and ready for the end, whatever it may look like. An updated roadmap would please the entire community I believe. Compare the kickstarter to what we have and what's been confirmed. I'm not sure they are the same project.

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