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Weapon Accuracy and good shooting technique

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TLDR: Go to heading d and read from there.

 

This topic has been discussed many a time in various different threads and on the discord, but as of yet no complete guide has been made. 

 

INTRO

 

The core of the issue: "accuracy" in games is apparently a difficult thing to do right.

 

Case A) BF2/PR: Random cone of spread.  Universally hated because it makes no sense and leaves no room for skill of the shooter.

Case B) Arma: Horrendous weapon sway, akin to everyone having Parkinson's.  Achieved the intended result, but was badly immersion breaking.

Case C) Squad: A realistic amount of sway, but with no other method of reigning in very high standards of accuracy.  "Rifles are lazerbeams"

 

The point of this thread is to outline a way in which the problem of weapon accuracy should be put to bed, once and for all.  The fact of the matter is that being a good shot in real life is genuinely difficult -- the is a reason that sharpshooters/snipers are respected in the military.  That being said, the skills are easy to learn, just difficult to master.  Players of Squad are used to a highly unrealistic standard of accuracy and effect on target.

 

I will take you through the principles of marksmanship, and show how they may be easily coded into Squad to achieve what no other game has bothered to do to date. TWO things to remember: The weapon will not always fire at the Point Of Aim (POA); and the POA will not always be where the foresight is.  I will address the last principle first as it is the most important.

 

a. The shot must be released and followed through without undue disturbance to the position

Weapons do not release rounds instantaneously.  There is a brief moment where the round is still travelling down the barrel, and where any movement or adjustment will shift the Point Of Impact (POI).  This has knock-on effects for principles b and c. Now the interesting bit -- effects on gameplay:

1) The movement of a rifle, scanning left to right very quickly, to release a shot will carry the bullet farther to the right than the POA suggested, even if the sight alignment is correct.

2) "Snatching the trigger" is when the shot is released and the trigger finger either moved the POA before firing, or is immediately pulled off the trigger as the round is still leaving the barrel.  This causes micro-disturbances in the hold of the rifle, leading to a larger spread as the POA changes as round is fired.  This can easily be worked into the game -- if on semi automatic, a press and hold of the LMB will carry the shot more true to the POA. This has the effect of slowing down the ROF and making marksmanship less "spammy" and more deliberate.  Another possibility is an entirely different mechanic: The releasing of LMB causes the POA of the rifle to quickly pull to one side very slightly.  While this is not true to the disruption of the first round as in real life, it would still cause a slowdown in the accurate ROF for following rounds.

 

b. The Position and hold must be firm enough to support the weapon.

This one is a doozy.  Self explanatory -- hold the weapon tight into the shoulder, no jankily resting on a vest or webbing where it may slip.  The right hand does all the work in securing the weapon.  Effects on gameplay:

1) When snapshooting (weapon at the rest, then immediately brought up and fired) -- the movement of sights and their alignment due to recoil will be greater than normal as the weapon has not been perfectly shouldered.  Appears as "greater recoil" to the shooter, although the force of recoil impulse is the same as always. 

2) When firing above a rapid rate of fire (faster than 1 round every 2 seconds) greater movement of the sight alignment (as above) as the weapon moves with less control in the shoulder.

3) With the advent of v10, weapons will be brought to rest when not actively used in the last few seconds.  Great.  Muscle fatigue is a genuine aspect of shooting, and good groupings (particularly in a standing or unsupported position) require most shooters to lower the weapon to rest after each shot (usually in non combat situations of course).  The greater the time the rifle has been spent at the ready and raised, the more recoil impulse will be felt as the hold is under less control.

(for all of the above, the same concept as in principle a applies: here, shots will not be going on target, and most likely will be randomly dispersed around the POA.)
 
c. The weapon must point naturally at the target without any undue physical effort.
Again, simple.  If your body position is not naturally pointing at the target (you are tensing up on one side in order to bring the rifle on) then there will be two major effects:

1) As you breathe, you will see the POA shift in diagonals because your chest is expanding and contracting in the X and Y axis at the same time.  Good positioning will yield breathing effects that are entirely vertical only (especially in the prone).  In this respect, more "random walk" POA shifts are only seen when standing unsupported or in wind, and accuracy actually gets a little easier than now where we have more random and unnatural movements in the POA in more positions.

2) If the position is twisted or the body tense on one side, the recoil impulse will be asymmetrical and the grouping will be consistently off to one side, as in principle a.  The interesting thing with this is that the animation leeks for v10 show a twisting of the torso and a delayed following of the legs for more natural behaviour.  When holding a twisted position for more than a brief moment, the legs realign... but during that brief moment, the above effect would be felt.  This can be seen in the fist seconds of this video.

 

 

 

d. Sight alignment and the sight picture must be correct.

Ok. Get it out of your heads that the foresight is where the bullet lands.  Your weapon is not a one dimensional object -- it has length.  A twisting of the weapon in relation to the eye will yield an incorrect sight picture.  This is equally true for optics as well as iron sights, though the effect is less awkward to correct with the former.

 

1812saj2jta5gjpg.jpg

 

firearms_marksmanSight.jpg


 This is probably the single most important thing to correct.  Irl, this needs to be watched like a hawk, corrected for after every round and checked before every shot.  It takes time to acquire the correct sight picture every time you shoulder the weapon and aim, even just a brief moment. In automatic, weapons are not usually as uncontrollable and wildly jumping as games usually make them out to be, but THIS is the problem.  This is why accuracy is much worse in automatic or rapid fire more than any other reason.  Keeping a sight picture and maintaining your correct sight alignment is key -- a single mm off and the round can land multiple feet to either side.  Effects on the game:

1) If you move the weapon to the right or left, you will typically lead with the barrel, then need to bring the rear aperture back into alignment and visa versa.  Same for Up and down.  The shouldering of a weapon will very rarely instantly yield the correct sight alignment, and it will take a very quick moment to correct, and will do so automatically.  Firing then becomes a case of controlled shots, with time in between to ensure correct alignment.  Otherwise, shots will be slightly off from the POA, in any axis.  This is NOT the same as "random deviation", because the weapon still shoots where you tell it to, but you can see that where you are telling it to fire is not correct. It is also more consistent than weapon sway, because your arms and head are locked into the weapon tight -- it is more of a random "constant" than random "variable", only changing from shot to shot or from aiming to aiming.

2) Another reason that this is not the same as random deviation is because you can quickly check sight alignment and adjust the POA accordingly, especially when at mid/close range and getting shots off as quickly as possible.  Look at the above pictures -- none would interfere with a close range hit, and at medium range they can be judged whether to be "close enough", adjusted for quickly, or deemed "too far off" and waited for to be corrected.

 

Before you rip me apart:

 

1) "bla bla gameplay > realism har har"... I'm not talking about realism, I'm talking about good gameplay.  Rifles are too accurate, and unless you want Arma or BF2 style systems, which are crap, this is simply another way of doing it.  This is just a system that rewards skill; just a suggestion: take it as you will.

 

2) "its too complicated" / "squad is more casual than this milsim-y system" -- these effects are incredibly, if not imperceptibly, minor.  In almost ALL cases I have mentioned above, simply taking your time before and between shots will automatically solve all accuracy concerns as your player model is self correcting, as you would be in real life.  The above system would stop repeated rounds fired, with no breaks, going exactly on target with no spread. That is all it does -- it just does it without any infringement of player input/skill or weapons that have laughable spread for no apparent reason.

 

3) "Too difficult to code" / "too many variables" -- ok, forget 9/10 of the above, all you really need is (the) d. (Sight alignment and the sight picture must be correct).  That alone would create something very equivalent to an authentic and balanced behaviour of rifles.  It leaves room for skill and patience with marksmanship, while penalising trigger spammers or quickscopers or people that think that they can effectively 1 shot an enemy instantly by popping in and out of cover.

 

I understand this will probably never be taken seriously, but I needed to point out that it is possible to do right.  Especially because we all know the rifles are too accurate, yet the most common defence of them is "HAH, what, you want PR-style cone spread then?!? HA!" and it was really getting on my tits.  

 

Sorry for the essay; cheers if you bothered to read.  I hope some of you are at least nerdy enough to find it interesting, if not feasible.

Edited by Kendo

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59 minutes ago, Kendo said:

~op

Looks like you really put alot of effort on it man , i personally think that having a random spread core like in PR but a lot smaller is absolutely OK :)

Edited by MultiSquid
It's not necessary to quote the entire wall of text. Use common sense when quoting, please.

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I kind of like, although I am not quite sure i understood how exactly you would implement this in the game visually. Can you elaborate on that? E.g. the scope thing would just take some time to get into correct position aka holding your mouse still? Some sway when not lying down?

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Sure Rook.  So it actually couldn't be simpler, really:

 

Right now, if you were to aim the weapon while low on stamina, you will see the whole rifle (slightly) sway around in a random pattern.  This is fairly realistic for a shooter with muscle fatigue in the unsupported position.  This would still happen.  The weapon, however, is always perfectly aligned (as in, the sight alignment is perfect, though the sight picture is not on target) -- This is what changes.

 

Sight alignment doesn't sway around as much as the weapon does -- you lock your arms and head in and the error is fairly stable until corrected. The weapon only sways because of breathing/wind/balancing on your feet, and it doesn't really effect alignment.  The sight alignment would be incorrect only when 1) a round has been fired (although, shooting position dictates how much this deviation will be -- prone firing will affect this much less);  2) When bringing the rifle to the cheek for the first time; or 3) when you drastically or quickly shift to engage a target far off to one side.  This effectively counts as lowering the weapon and raising it again.

 

At this point, a decision can be made: a) Fire the shot anyway (say, the target is to the left of your sight picture, and your sight alignment is taking shots off to the left anyway, or because the target is very close and the incorrect alignment will still yield a hit).

b) Adjust the sight picture so that you purposefully bring the fall of shot on target even though the sight alignment is still off.  Essentially, you create "situation a)" above and walk the shots on.

c) and now we get to the core of what you were asking -- you choose not to shoot immediately, and to align sights. I can think of two decent ways of achieving this.  Right now, there is a "hold breath and focus" mechanic (hold shift).  One could simply double up this function to be "focus, hold breath, correctly shoulder rifle and correct sight alignment".  In the brief second/1.5 seconds it takes to get yourself ready, the sight alignment will be on, and you may fire.

 

Another option is to have this process as automatic, rather than manual like focusing is.  In that case, an incorrect sight alignment will automatically correct itself within 1.5 seconds or so, so long as a round is not fired.  An incorrect sight picture will be maintained, possibly worsened, if firing continues, just as a good sight alignment needs to be checked after each round anyway.

 

I prefer the former of these, because it would mean having to drop focus on the target, check sight alignment and adjust, then re-focus on the target.  This may seem like a bit of a ball-ache to some, but see when you're on the ranges in real life and you miss a target at 300m by a good 3 feet and think "f*ck, what happened there..." you definitely do stop focusing on the target and run through a checklist before reengaging.

Edited by Kendo

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Kendo is my new BFF 

 

I understand what the devs are going for with the current floaty weapons, but even with the mechanics in game to improve a stable sight picture, hold breath, manage your stamina, it still feels out of your control, like you're driving your avatar instead of it being an extension of you.

 

Quote

c) and now we get to the core of what you were asking -- you choose not to shoot immediately, and to align sights. I can think of two decent ways of achieving this.  Right now, there is a "hold breath and focus" mechanic (hold shift).  One could simply double up this function to be "focus, hold breath, correctly shoulder rifle and correct sight alignment".  In the brief second/1.5 seconds it takes to get yourself ready, the sight alignment will be on, and you may fire.

 

Another option is to have this process as automatic, rather than manual like focusing is.  In that case, an incorrect sight alignment will automatically correct itself within 1.5 seconds or so, so long as a round is not fired.  An incorrect sight picture will be maintained, possibly worsened, if firing continues, just as a good sight alignment needs to be checked after each round anyway.

 

 

I'm not ex military, but I do shoot long rifles, and I really like this idea, where when you need more accuracy, you take the time to correctly shoulder the weapon and snug it in, which is more than just the simulated focus/hold breath we have now. I like the idea of a combo of you hold shift for an initial focus, then if you continue to hold it, you get hold breath/shoulder rifle to get an improved sight picture and accuracy. So, you could peek out around a corner and focus for snapshots down a street for example, or hold it when prone for long range attempts. 

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Well, good news I suppose.  I have done some testing, and some others have also pointed out the way the current system works.

 

As it turns out, sight alignment is 100% in the game aleady, all coded in, and no "we'll have to see if its possible with v10".  See the pictures linked below.

 

B9mhwRv.jpg aKTGxmo.jpg

 

 

When moving the weapon frantically around, the barrel does in fact lead, and the rear sights follow.  Furthermore, crawling and firing will show that the weapon does in fact create a ballistic path that flows from the bore.  The system is already in place.

 

The way it is implemented now, however, is simply for the look and feel of holding the weapon -- so we avoid a cardboard "CSGO" appearance. Now, if you look at the images I linked, you'll see the kind of sight misalignment I was talking about having as an actual feature of shouldering the weapon, even when standing still (and not spinning around like a moron).

 

Basically, have the exact same system as now, except with very slight deviations in sight alignment that do not get automatically and instantly corrected, but instead will be corrected in the ways I describe in my above reply.  Boom, done.  Tea and medals time.

 

Seeing it in-game has only convinced me further that such a system would absolutely rock.  The size of the misalignment is somewhat exaggerated in the pictures because it only happens for 1/10000th of a second and when at "warp-speed" with the mouse, so it was hard to capture, but: Imagine correcting for the above when quickly engaging a target -- the skill, practice, subtlety and nuanced feel that would be added to firefights would improve the gameplay a thousand fold.

 

Furthermore, you can see the rather hilariously bad scope behaviour that we have right now -- to be clear, I'm not blaming the devs on this one because it's clear they haven't deliberately tried to achieve the proper effect yet, so fair enough.  Just to elaborate, it's obviously impossible to have a perfect scope picture with a complete circle for the eyepiece when the weapon is twisted so far around.  It should look more like the above picture for scopes in the op, if the reticle is visible at all.

 

sl215Yi.jpg

Edited by Kendo

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I would REALLY love it if squad had the feature that arma/red orchestra/insurgency series have, aiming deadzone, so that weapon is not always turned towards the center of the screen, but can instead be moved around

Oh, and 3D scopes

Edited by MilosV

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Scopes are borked, especially aiming at high and low angles, it's a known bug. The current system is just a placeholder ATM. Fishman has been playing around with scopes, hopefully the mods have been too. 

 

 

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On 25/10/2017 at 12:04 AM, Kendo said:

a. The shot must be released and followed through without undue disturbance to the position

Weapons do not release rounds instantaneously.  There is a brief moment where the round is still travelling down the barrel, and where any movement or adjustment will shift the Point Of Impact (POI). 

...

1) The movement of a rifle, scanning left to right very quickly, to release a shot will carry the bullet farther to the right than the POA suggested, even if the sight alignment is correct.

i had an idea about this - of course i have no idea how the mechanic actually works, but anyhoo.

** i am assuming the projectile is being emitted from the 'end' of the barrel and not travelling the length of the barrel, when fired. **

therefore, adding a pause between "firing" and the projectile leaving the barrel, that equates to the time it takes to travel the length of the barrel, should give the effect inferred in the above quote - bullet trajectory effected by barrel movment during/after "firing".

 

 

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This is an interesting read. I think Squad has attracted many FPS players. I'm not sure how popular or unpopular these mechanics would be among those who primarily play FPS games.

 

It seems like it would take a lot of time to understand and practice your aiming, not to mention the different mechanics of each gun. Squad is a game that you quickly jump into to experience a realistic war. The bigger the learning curve, and more time required to understand how everything works, the more off-putting the game may be to newcomers? Last I heard the average time people play Squad is 30 hours. 

 

I think it would be great to implement all this, though probably very complex. These mechanics would increase the length of firefights and slow the game down. Just imagine having to sit in a 2 storey building for 30 minutes with your squadmates as you're suppressing the Taliban in the compounds down the road. With inaccurate rockets flying at your building and a constant fear of running out of ammo. Would love to fight in the rivers of Chora with the enemy on the other side of the field in a ditch. Neither can see each other but both are suppressing each other. These mechanics would add to the realistic experiences of war immensely. 

 

However, I don't think these mechanics, and the possible experiences I wrote above, would be popular among many Squad players who mostly play FPS games. 

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Just like the audio I consider the weapons and all of their functions to be finished business. It's great that we're getting a resting position and other animations but seriously I think you guys are being way too knitpicky about all this.

 

Just be thankful the virtual bullet is emanating from the weapon and not the tippy top of the avatars head like in CS:GO.

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Laughing jack, the thing with adding a delay is that the input lag on most systems takes care of that already.  It may not be perfectly precise, timing wise, but it still true that there is a time gap between your mouse button clicking and the round entering the virtual environemt.  Any more delay and the game would feel sluggish.  All that would be required, if one was so inclined (and, as I say, only principle d is really important here) is a very brief calculation as to the velocity of the turn in progress and a slight adjustment to the round.  

 

Odd Fella, the point you raise about complexity is a fair one.  The thing is, these systems would be so, so incredibly minor.  Enough to make you occasionally miss a shot at 200m by a foot or so (sorry for mixing units).

 

Fact of the matter is, casual players will see the weapon handling as not too dissimilar to from many other games out there, even ones that penalise skill with laughable RNG cones.  Take PR for example -- indeed, a particularly sinful one in this respect -- one just puts up with it.  The only advice you need give new players is simply "don't spam and take your time".  That is the gyst of it.  The hardcore regulars can then delve into the finer details if they wish to eek out a very slight edge and master skills.  Furthermore, only point D is really called for, so it's actually quite simple.

 

Zylfrax, I totally respect that opinion.  It is by no means the worst FPS for this kind of thing, and I can see why people have got used to it.  One must admit that nothing is ever perfect, however.  We are here, after all, to give feedback and help, if we can, shape the game.  This is simply one suggestion that may, or may not, be useful to the guys in charge.  It is also something many people have requested in one place or another, yet no one had suggested a better way than "less accurate, but just not like PR".  I wanted to provide an alternative that may actually be of some use (maybe).  Not being a Debby downer or nay-saying.

 

Edited by Kendo

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8 minutes ago, Kendo said:

Laughing jack, the thing with adding a delay is that the input lag on most systems takes care of that already.  It may not be perfectly precise, timing wise, but it still true that there is a time gap between your mouse button clicking and the round entering the virtual environemt.  Any more delay and the game would feel sluggish.  All that would be required, if one was so inclined (and, as I say, only principle d is really important here) is a very brief calculation as to the velocity of the turn in progress and a slight adjustment to the round.  

 

Odd Fella, the point you raise about complexity is a fair one.  The thing is, these systems would be so, so incredibly minor.  Enough to make you occasionally miss a shot at 200m by a foot or so (sorry for mixing units).

 

Fact of the matter is, casual players will see the weapon handling as not too dissimilar to from many other games out there, even ones that penalise skill with laughable RNG cones.  Take PR for example -- indeed, a particularly sinful one in this respect -- one just puts up with it.  The only advice you need give new players is simply "don't spam and take your time".  That is the gyst of it.  The hardcore regulars can then delve into the finer details if they with to eek out a very slight edge and master skills.  Furthermore, only point D is really called for, so it's actually quite simple.

 

Zylfrax, I totally respect that opinion.  It is by no means the worst FPS for this kind of thing, and I can see why people have got used to it.  One must admit that nothing is ever perfect, however.  We are here, after all, to give feedback and help, if we can, shape the game.  This is simply one suggestion that may, or may not, be useful to the guys in charge.  It is also something many people have requested in one place or another, yet no one had suggested a better way than "less accurate, but just not like PR".  I wanted to provide an alternative that may actually be of some use (maybe).  Not being a Debby downer or nay-saying.

 

I hear you bro but from my 2000+ hours in Squad I can tell you all the weapons have drop and spread plus just like in real life you need to stabilize yourself to get any kind of accuracy and if you really want accuracy you must have full stamina and use focus. Nobody else does it quite like this so Squad does the FPS weapons thing top notch in my book. There are much better things to focus on like the velcro walls, rocks and bushes & some janky server admins.

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46 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

I hear you bro but from my 2000+ hours in Squad I can tell you all the weapons have drop and spread plus just like in real life you need to stabilize yourself to get any kind of accuracy and if you really want accuracy you must have full stamina and use focus.

^

This 

My case : All in Al Basrah : 

1. Throw smokes in the main road, sprint the hell outta there to alley way, turn the corner and face to face with the enemies 

  A. I literally jump and can't even fire a weapon. 

 B. I manage to fire weapon, all to left side of the contact. 

 C. I empty half of my clip to aim that sucker. 

 

May I remind you. I am into just over 100hrs in this (I consider myself as a stage of 'i am getting there', just got outta newbie zone :P )

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50 minutes ago, samwiseOrigin said:

^

This 

My case : All in Al Basrah : 

1. Throw smokes in the main road, sprint the hell outta there to alley way, turn the corner and face to face with the enemies 

  A. I literally jump and can't even fire a weapon. 

 B. I manage to fire weapon, all to left side of the contact. 

 C. I empty half of my clip to aim that sucker. 

 

May I remind you. I am into just over 100hrs in this (I consider myself as a stage of 'i am getting there', just got outta newbie zone :P )

Yeah. Squad punishes CS:GO style movement and shooting.

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10 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Yeah. Squad punishes CS:GO style movement and shooting.

Yea, I mean.....I wasn't trying to CS:Go here man... lol

Tryina be tactic, Enter, kill, Exit 

Sometimes my brain fart... that's all :( 

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2 hours ago, Kendo said:

... the input lag on most systems takes care of that already.  It may not be perfectly precise, timing wise, but it still true that there is a time gap between your mouse button clicking and the round entering the virtual environemt.  Any more delay and the game would feel sluggish.  ...

yeah , i figured there had to be some inherent computery delay, which is good - the suggestion was more for the pedants out there, heheh ;)

 

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13 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

I hear you bro but from my 2000+ hours in Squad I can tell you all the weapons have drop and spread plus just like in real life you need to stabilize yourself to get any kind of accuracy and if you really want accuracy you must have full stamina and use focus. 

 Unfortunately I have to disagree with this, at least in my experience. 

 

First off, drop is fine -- I'm not talking about drop.  If the game didn't have drop then the op would have definitely included a mini rant at the least.  That being said, bullet drop is basically a constant that anyone with over 30 hours just instinctively corrects for without really thinking about (rockets aside).

 

Secondly, the weapons do not have any significant spread.  What there IS is weapon sway -- again, this is good, but it is a different thing.  And actually, you know what, on the topic of spread: weapons with unrealisticly large spread in games are a major problem too.  I don't think squad is too far off with having the actual weapons being as accurate as they are (in other words, if fired from a vice, they would look pretty close to what squad displays).  Accuracy of the weapon system and accuracy of the shooter are two different things -- I'm discussing the latter.

 

"just like in real life you need to stabilise yourself to get any kind of accuracy": this is where I cant agree.  I can shoot 10000 times more accurately in squad than in real life, and I don't need to stabilise myself.  Its very easy to lean around a corner and snapshot a bullet right on target.  Moreover, you can fire a round every .5 of a second and have it follow the exact same path.  Its simply waaaay to easy to get repeated shots on target at anything that isn't <5m away from you.

 

Now, this is a different thing entirely to what Samwise is saying.  In the case of being caught with your pants down, face to face, squad is genuinely challenging already.  I'm not disputing that, nor would the proposals I make change that in any way.  As I said in the op, sight alignment mechanisms would not interfere with close range combat at all, really.  My issue is simply with mid/long range combat, time to kill and especially the fact that you can maintain highly unrealistic rates of fire with 100% confidence that you are on target for every single round.  You don't need to stabilise yourself, and even if you decide to...going prone in squad basically removes any interference at all with the weapon -- it literally is a lazerbeam, with a bit of drop.

 

Take Arma, for example.  The weapons had a realistic level of accuracy, but they were horrendously floaty and sluggish, with obscene weapon sway.  Thing is, this did create a lovely dynamic in long range combat, but it was just so immersion breaking and felt grim.  Imagine turning down the weapon sway in Arma to maybe 0.1x the default level -- that is what Squad feels like -- again, weapons are realistically accurate, and now the sway is believable, but then it becomes simply way too easy to get repeated hits at range.  Getting on target is basically a given and not something you have to think about at all.  I think LugNut sums it up rather well.  If you have realistic accuracy of the weapon and realistic sway, I think you then need realistic weapon behaviour, otherwise its too easy.  Some games have RNG inaccuracy; some games have Parkinson's sway -- each game does it differently.  I think because squad is so spot on with the former two, it needs the latter as well.

 

Besides, this makes it sound like I'm on a rant about how crap it is right now.  I'm not -- its so, so so close to being perfect.  All it needs is a tiny tweak.  Just enough to make it a bit more challenging in those situations (and only those situations) where right now its a gift.

Edited by Kendo

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14 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Just like the audio I consider the weapons and all of their functions to be finished business.

Just on the topic of weapons sounds as well mate, there is no denying just how beautiful this sounds.  As Motherdear says, its not about asking "blah blah why is this completed yet" ... I can wait for as long as it takes -- they've got their priorities and that's fine.  Same goes for my suggestion about sight alignment.  "Good enough for now" doesn't mean to says anything is "finished business" ;) 

 

 

Edited by Kendo

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Look in the August monthly update. There's a sample there I believe.

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Some really good ideas, wish the devs would implement this in a reasonable way.

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@Kendo I read the entire thread and completely agree with all your points, you explained it really well.

 

CQ combat is almost perfect in Squad right now, except for snap proning, but we already know that it's fixed in V10.

 

Sight misalignment, as far as I can tell, was implemented from the very start. I'm very interested to see how much it's going to be affected by the new animation system in V10. I have a feeling accuracy at long range will be harder, I'm sure the devs want to make it more realistic than it is now.

I also don't like that weapons fire like lasers (except for bullet drop), weapons are too precise. At long ranges, wind and other environmental factors affects the precision of any projectile. So just having a very small random deviation is a way of simulating that, without making it complex. If they eventually can simulate something like wind, it would be awesome, especially with mortars and snipers, making it so much more rewarding to land hits.

It's a matter of balancing accuracy versus precision: http://cdn.antarcticglaciers.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/precision_accuracy.png

Edited by JarryHead
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Over 300 hours now and about to give up. There is absolute now increase of quality in my shooting. It even seems to get more worse lately.
Every shot I do feels like a total lottery. Sometimes and I mean really sometimes I see a guy die from my bullets. But often yes very often its just me shooting and than get shot by a single shot.

Shooting at fast moving people is something I wont even try.
Shooting at walking people I will try but hardly any succes.
Shooting at people sitting or standing still will sometimes give me a kill.
Most succes I get with a normal firearm (No RPG) is while shooting at people whom I accindently
bump into while they facing somewhere else. Even there I notice that sometimes I shoot a couple of times
and notice they turn around so I keep on shooting till they drop. 

How easy they kill me is beyond me. Often one shot  get me down. Often I shoot first and off course my shots end up in a tree or fence and they
shoot me. I also notice that even when I'm attacking with my Squad and we attack for odd reasons I'm the one who gets hit first and die. It wont matter if I run in front,rear or center of the squad. My fat ass is the one who get shot first. It's like I have a fluorising pylon on my helmet. I tried on low ping servers, I tried to change tactics, I tried different weapons and not really getting better. I noticed my best results are on the Chora map ans Al Basrah on 2th place. My worsed experience are on Fools road.

 

Don't consider it a rant, It's just my experience lately. And no i'm not a run and gun player. I read some comments above on people who can accurate shoot people and such. Its beyond me how they do it.

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On 10/24/2017 at 4:04 PM, Kendo said:

I will take you through the principles of marksmanship, and show how they may be easily coded into Squad to achieve what no other game has bothered to do to date. TWO things to remember: The weapon will not always fire at the Point Of Aim (POA); and the POA will not always be where the foresight is.  I will address the last principle first as it is the most important.

And how you want to do it with 2-axis mouse? To do what you describe here we would need mouse with at least 4 axes to independently control front and back sides of the rifle, so front sight doesn't match the rear sight unless you align them yourself using that 4-axis mouse.

 

On 10/24/2017 at 4:04 PM, Kendo said:

c. The weapon must point naturally at the target without any undue physical effort.
Again, simple.  If your body position is not naturally pointing at the target (you are tensing up on one side in order to bring the rifle on) then there will be two major effects:

1) As you breathe, you will see the POA shift in diagonals because your chest is expanding and contracting in the X and Y axis at the same time.  Good positioning will yield breathing effects that are entirely vertical only (especially in the prone).  In this respect, more "random walk" POA shifts are only seen when standing unsupported or in wind, and accuracy actually gets a little easier than now where we have more random and unnatural movements in the POA in more positions.
2) If the position is twisted or the body tense on one side, the recoil impulse will be asymmetrical and the grouping will be consistently off to one side, as in principle a.  The interesting thing with this is that the animation leeks for v10 show a twisting of the torso and a delayed following of the legs for more natural behaviour.  When holding a twisted position for more than a brief moment, the legs realign... but during that brief moment, the above effect would be felt.  This can be seen in the fist seconds of this video.

To make this mechanics when you body not pointing at the target, we would need every player to have a joystick in their left hand in order for them to be able to point where they want to point their body.

 

I'm up for it, sign me up, it's just most people will not be able to hit jack because they will lack 2 axes on the mouse and 2 axes of a joystick(because they don't have one) xD

Edited by Skul

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