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Randall172

tactical blind fire

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low risk high yield tactic that is used by all forces.

 

 

 

 

cuz you know "realism"!

 

plus the ability to pick up other teams weapons.

Edited by Randall172

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41 minutes ago, Randall172 said:

low risk high yield tactic that is used by all forces.

 

 

 

 

cuz you know "realism"!

 

plus the ability to pick up other teams weapons.

I think that picking up enemy weapons won't be a thing , but i could be wrong .

And blind fire is abit of a problem since it real life you somewhat get the feeling of where the weapon is pointed and where you want to shot , in game it might be. Very difficult , are you famaliar with any game that has blindfire? I personally don't .

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I always wanted to suggest this aswell but never got around to it, yes OWI, do it!

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3 hours ago, L0cation said:

I think that picking up enemy weapons won't be a thing , but i could be wrong .

And blind fire is abit of a problem since it real life you somewhat get the feeling of where the weapon is pointed and where you want to shot , in game it might be. Very difficult , are you famaliar with any game that has blindfire? I personally don't .

It worked great for clearing stairwells

 

 

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5 hours ago, LugNut said:

It worked great for clearing stairwells

 

 

That looks great thanks for letting me know :P , although it doesn't look like a full blindfire since you do expose yourself for abit in order to see so i am not sure how effective it would be ... But i personally don't mind to have this extra feature ingame it look really cool !

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2 hours ago, L0cation said:

That looks great thanks for letting me know :P , although it doesn't look like a full blindfire since you do expose yourself for abit in order to see so i am not sure how effective it would be ... But i personally don't mind to have this extra feature ingame it look really cool !

 

No in RO2 it were two different things:

Get into cover (needs coversystem, which is a problem), press LMB and he shoots over the cover blindly (2nd part of the video).

Get into cover, press RMB (Aim down sight) and the model raises above the cover to aim down sight. Shoot then with LMB.

It was quite a good system actually and awesome for MOUT/FISH/CQB/...

 

Also: Blind Fire into a Room or along a trench is still a thing and trained in some armed forces.

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There is a reason the cover system and blind fire are not in RS2. The cover system was pretty awful and hardly anyone used it yet alone used blind fire. The only time I used it was to throw grenades over walls without exposing myself but once you did it you soon realised to just throw them manually. 

 

Also most regular armies really frown on blind firing. You're never taught it and it's drilled into you to only ever take aimed shots.

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1 hour ago, Melbo said:

There is a reason the cover system and blind fire are not in RS2. The cover system was pretty awful and hardly anyone used it yet alone used blind fire. The only time I used it was to throw grenades over walls without exposing myself but once you did it you soon realised to just throw them manually. 

 

Also most regular armies really frown on blind firing. You're never taught it and it's drilled into you to only ever take aimed shots.

 

1. The cover system was aweful, yes, not the blind-fire. It felt natural. I could imagine instead of having blind fire bound to a cover system binding it to a "Weapon-Rest"-System. This way it would work quite naturally... still it can also fail massively.

 

2. Again, it depends on the situation: 200m blind-fire Militia-Jihad-Style is frowned upon... spraying in a "Z-Pattern" along a trench, or into a room before entering isn't necessarily. It remains an option in CQB.

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How many times did you use blind fire in RO2. Honestly now! 

 

After 1000's of hours playing RO and RS I can pretty much count on one hand the amount of times I or other people used it!

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9 minutes ago, Melbo said:

How many times did you use blind fire in RO2. Honestly now! 

 

After 1000's of hours playing RO and RS I can pretty much count on one hand the amount of times I or other people used it!

 

The cover system was bad, as I already explained, nevertheless was the feature within the cover system fine because it was intuitive.

With an extended "Weapon-Rest"-System, that allows Blind-firing after the weapon collision-system would cause the model to take the gun down, blind-fire can be an intuitive option without the need for a cover system (which was, as already stated, awful).

 

People haven't used blind-fire in RO2/ RS because it was in itself crap but because of the Cover-Sytem. That's a difference.

 

 

 

 

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Why would it not be serious? Its a useful tactic in very close range engagements. Masters of blind fire would have a serious upperhand clearing those apartments in Al Basrah.

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9 hours ago, Thonar said:

 

The cover system was bad, as I already explained, nevertheless was the feature within the cover system fine because it was intuitive.

With an extended "Weapon-Rest"-System, that allows Blind-firing after the weapon collision-system would cause the model to take the gun down, blind-fire can be an intuitive option without the need for a cover system (which was, as already stated, awful).

 

People haven't used blind-fire in RO2/ RS because it was in itself crap but because of the Cover-Sytem. That's a difference.

 

 

 

 

Yep, I disliked the cover system intensely in RO2, it was unpredictable and seemed.... sticky. Blindfire worked great on Apts though, since you could shoot around corners while almost being completely protected. It was a bit OP tbh. That was the only map I ever used it on, since the bottlenecks were ALWAYS the same, and you knew exactly where the bad guys would set up. The blind nade toss was pretty nifty too. 

 

If we had incremental lean in Squad, I'd be perfectly happy without blindfire, since there really isn't situations like that where you are forced to shoot it out with someone in order to advance, there are more options. 

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There is the reason why only "rebel" forces use this tactic. And Squad insurgents are not unprofessional enough to use it.

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On 9/16/2017 at 3:51 PM, L0cation said:

I think that picking up enemy weapons won't be a thing , but i could be wrong .

 

why not. IF soldiers were desperate enough such as running out of ammo they would pickup enemy weapons rather than resort to throwing or clubbing. It happened during various conflicts even in modern ones.

 

or perhaps because main weapon malfunctioned and they needed another weapon.

 

http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?9257-U-S-troops-using-confiscated-Iraqi-AK-47s

 

 

 

https://www.militarytimes.com/2013/08/28/this-is-not-your-rifle-marines-take-foreign-weapons-instructor-course/

 

Also some infantrymen may like souvenirs.

 

AK-47-outside-Fallujah.jpg

 

 

 

 

Edited by kev2go

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tactical fire is a difficult one because atm there is no animation other than tilt around corners that allows blind fire (but not well).. cover doesn't really work in game the way it should as you are either fully exposed to fire or partially exposed and cant shoot where you want (other than around corners) or fully hidden (see my rant about this on another thread ;p)..overall the ability to use cover in game is poor.

 

using suppression or tactical fire whilst useable in game does not have the general effect as it would irl I would guess (never having been in a live fire fight!).. as you tend to feel somewhat invincible in game there are those that will just stand / lie and fire back .. unless its heavy one kill type weapon firing at you.  Fire and move is the name of the game in Squad.

 

As for picking up weapons..to me there are a lot more important things that need tweaked before this requirement... but would have preferred that than friggin shovel melee!

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On 17/09/2017 at 0:38 PM, Melbo said:

How many times did you use blind fire in RO2. Honestly now! 

 

After 1000's of hours playing RO and RS I can pretty much count on one hand the amount of times I or other people used it!

Agreed...I would have used it more often, but it was tied to the cover system which, while a nice idea, I never ever used - found it a bit too cumbersome and preferred just to crouch instead. 

 

However, I'm pretty sure that if you were using a fixed MG you could crouch, but still fire? That's something that would be pretty useful. Even just the ability to crouch while deployed or using a fixed position, so you aren't quite so vulnerable. Pretty sure there's a clip for the motion capture sessions of someone doing this though, so perhaps it will come with the new animation system. 

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7 hours ago, kev2go said:

 

why not. IF soldiers were desperate enough such as running out of ammo they would pickup enemy weapons rather than resort to throwing or clubbing. It happened during various conflicts even in modern ones.

 

or perhaps because main weapon malfunctioned and they needed another weapon.

 

http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?9257-U-S-troops-using-confiscated-Iraqi-AK-47s

 

 

 

https://www.militarytimes.com/2013/08/28/this-is-not-your-rifle-marines-take-foreign-weapons-instructor-course/

 

Also some infantrymen may like souvenirs.

 

AK-47-outside-Fallujah.jpg

 

 

 

 

It's extremely rare to pick up and use an enemies weapon in these modern times, for a few reasons.

1 - Most of the time, engagements are at a distance meaning you don't have the opportunity to pick up any enemy weapon.
2 - It's extremely unlikely to run out of ammunition - Spare ammo is carried and your fellow soldiers will give a spare mag or two if needed. If ammo count is low across the whole unit, generally its time to withdraw or bring in air/artillery to enable you to withdraw.(This will be coming to Squad by the way in some form - The spare ammo part)
3 - Enemies take their dead and weapons with them(Especially in the Middle East), unless they were unfortunate enough to meet air support.
4 - Most of the time you come across enemy weapons, is in a cache. Which you destroy or in some cases, is taken and given to friendly Afghani/Iraqi forces.
5 - Today's enemy have a nice little habit of booby trapping left behind weapons, as they know soldiers will take and dispose of those weapons. Some go as far as placing explosives inside of magazines.

The story you linked is dated back to 2003, which is a one off rare case. The past 15 years has proven why picking up enemy weapons can be a bad idea. During my deployment, if we saw an enemy weapon just lying casually around, we'd check for explosives as we knew the enemy always took their weapons with them.

Also, war souvenirs(War trophies) are generally banned by most modern forces, and if they're not banned, they have to be approved by your superiors which is paperwork, which most of the time = being denied. It isn't WW2 anymore, where you could just take an enemies pistol and take it home with you.

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8 hours ago, ZiGreen said:

There is the reason why only "rebel" forces use this tactic. And Squad insurgents are not unprofessional enough to use it.

this could be only allowed for the rebel forces then, it could give them even more CQB advantage over the pro forces.

 

I assume the practice of throwing a nade blindly over a wall/into a room is covered by the same ruleset. 

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29 minutes ago, Dubs said:

It's extremely rare to pick up and use an enemies weapon in these modern times, for a few reasons.

1 - Most of the time, engagements are at a distance meaning you don't have the opportunity to pick up any enemy weapon.
2 - It's extremely unlikely to run out of ammunition - Spare ammo is carried and your fellow soldiers will give a spare mag or two if needed. If ammo count is low across the whole unit, generally its time to withdraw or bring in air/artillery to enable you to withdraw.(This will be coming to Squad by the way in some form - The spare ammo part)
3 - Enemies take their dead and weapons with them(Especially in the Middle East), unless they were unfortunate enough to meet air support.
4 - Most of the time you come across enemy weapons, is in a cache. Which you destroy or in some cases, is taken and given to friendly Afghani/Iraqi forces.

 

Not all of the time players are fighting insrugents in squad. Last time i checked IRL Conventional forces are not fighting against the Russian Army. This is a conventional war scenario. And its common in squad.

 

 

Guess because of your logic of arguments we should remove such a matchup then? I think not

 

# Selective Realism.

Quote

 


5 - Today's enemy have a nice little habit of booby trapping left behind weapons, as they know soldiers will take and dispose of those weapons. Some go as far as placing explosives inside of magazines.

 

 

 

Its a game called squad. YOu cant exactly booby trap weapons. Sure there is the IED, but thats big enough to see if someone left it by  a dropped weapon. Frankly Thats a risk players should be willing to take.

Quote

 



The story you linked is dated back to 2003, which is a one off rare case. The past 15 years has proven why picking up enemy weapons can be a bad idea. During my deployment, if we saw an enemy weapon just lying casually around, we'd check for explosives as we knew the enemy always took their weapons with them.

Also, war souvenirs(War trophies) are generally banned by most modern forces, and if they're not banned, they have to be approved by your superiors which is paperwork, which most of the time = being denied. It isn't WW2 anymore, where you could just take an enemies pistol and take it home with you.

I  Dont agree

 

Its not  a one of case but an example:

 

Want more?

 

Another example was of Captain MCgraw, ( Generation KIll written by Evan Wright)  of 1st Recon Battalion found and carried an AK with him during OIF alongside his M4.

 

In another Novel written by David Bellavia's "house to House"  during his tour of iraq in 2004,  of makes mention of finding and taking a souvenir : a Czech made SKS rifle 

 

 

think its plausible enough to allow as a ingame feature for a game like squad. Squad is not RL. Just about any tactical shooter that is reputable for realism like ARMA or RO or even RS2 Vietnam allow such a feature of picking up enemy weapons.

 

 

But sure White knight  "selective realism" all you want.  your just a company man making excuses of why not to add features.

Edited by kev2go

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41 minutes ago, kev2go said:

 

Not all of the time players are fighting insrugents in squad. Last time i checked IRL Conventional forces are not fighting against the Russian Army. This is a conventional war scenario. And its common in squad.

 

 

Guess because of your logic of arguments we should remove such a matchup then? I think not

 

# Selective Realism.

 

Its a game called squad. YOu cant exactly booby trap weapons. Sure there is the IED, but thats big enough to see if someone left it by  a dropped weapon. Frankly Thats a risk players should be willing to take.

I  Dont agree

 

Its not  a one of case but an example:

 

Want more?

 

Another example was of Captain MCgraw, ( Generation KIll written by Evan Wright)  of 1st Recon Battalion found and carried an AK with him during OIF alongside his M4.

 

In another Novel written by David Bellavia's "house to House"  during his tour of iraq in 2004,  of makes mention of finding and taking a souvenir : a Czech made SKS rifle 

 

 

think its plausible enough to allow as a ingame feature for a game like squad. Squad is not RL. Just about any tactical shooter that is reputable for realism like ARMA or RO or even RS2 Vietnam allow such a feature of picking up enemy weapons.

 

 

But sure White knight  "selective realism" all you want.  your just a company man making excuses of why not to add features.

Far from selective realism, it's based on personal experience within the military, and experience on deployment overseas. There's no selective realism when what I am stating is 100% fact and not a google or wiki search, using very rare and obscure cases to make something seem more than it is.

Now to get to the game side of things, enable picking up enemy kits = asymmetrical balance off. Cool, now we have an Insurgent Squad with 2 RPGs, 2 Laws and 3 M4+ACOG. Nice. Other than that, it makes ammo less valuable and takes away the whole point of ammo logistics. Squad isn't Arma, PR, RO/RS2....It's Squad and the devs have made clear what their vision of the game is. There's modding support coming soon, so expect it to be added as community content instead of developer content.

Now as I am a white knight and company man, please make sure you read over the forums rules or your time here may be short.
 

 

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Regards, Company man.

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