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Why is there no focus zoom in this game?

 

Focus Zoom is when you focus on the center of your FOV and lose your peripheral vision. I find it silly when you ADS and you keep the same FOV. 

 

Maybe this is planned for a later time but would be a much needed QOL.

 

instead of there being a zoom with the holding of shift, just let shift steady your aim. I can still focus even when I am tired.

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IRL when I look down the iron sights of my rifle my eyeball doesn't zoom magnify nor do lose my peripheral vision. When i throw on my ACOG I get some magification but I still don't lose my peripheral vision. This is how it should be in a realistic game.

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1 hour ago, Zylfrax791 said:

IRL when I look down the iron sights of my rifle my eyeball doesn't zoom magnify nor do lose my peripheral vision. When i throw on my ACOG I get some magification but I still don't lose my peripheral vision. This is how it should be in a realistic game.

 

your eyes are constantly moving, when you focus on an object your eyes limit their movement to focus the center of your FOV on the object. 

 

In Arma the focus button simulates this (because pixels don't behave like light) by lowering your FOV (zooming in). Your eyes behave the same way with an ACOG but with an added physical zoom from the scope.

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If this was ever added into Squad I would only accept a 1.5x magnification just to help players make out the pixels. It could have its own separate cooldown ect. since IRL it's difficult to stay so extremely focused on a target, especially with your adrenaline racing.

 

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On 09/09/2017 at 3:56 PM, Zylfrax791 said:

IRL when I look down the iron sights of my rifle my eyeball doesn't zoom magnify nor do lose my peripheral vision. When i throw on my ACOG I get some magification but I still don't lose my peripheral vision. This is how it should be in a realistic game.

 

Not entirely true. The reason that we have a "zoom" in game is because you can't easily account for the entire human field of vision on a normal monitor.

It has to be shrunk down to fit on screen, and the result is that in game objects will actually look much smaller than they would in real life.

 

It would help the debate if we could move away from thinking of it as "zoom". Essentially, your "normal" view in game, when you aren't aiming or holding [Shift], is unrealistically zoomed out, in order to give you a sense of a wide field of vision, because you are of course trying to view the world through a 24" monitor sitting a couple of feet in front of you. So when you hold [Shift], you aren't really zooming in - you are actually restoring your vision much closer to a realistic magnification, and objects will look much closer to their normal size - but of course, you lose that peripheral vision as a result.

 

Some people don't like this because they are holding down a key and finding their apparent "magnification" increases, so they instantly assume it's "magic eyeball zoom", and therefore, unrealistic. But it's not - it's not a particularly realistic mechanism, agreed, but the effect it achieves is actually closer to reality.

 

It's a compromise - but most things have to be, even in realistic games controlled with standard computer peripherals, and until everyone is using huge wrap-around monitors or VR, there's not an easy way to accurately recreate human vision within a game. Allowing the user to choose when they wish to restore the more realistic vision is about the best we can do at the moment.

 

Edit: just realised that I might have misrepresented your views a little, apologies! To clarify, I was making a case for the presence of a "zoom" function not to be considered unrealistic outright, but I do agree that it shouldn't be automatically applied when you bring up the sights as the OP wants, as this aids aiming in CQB. It should be up to the player to decide with the shift key, as it is now.

Edited by DaiaBu

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On 9/11/2017 at 1:51 AM, DaiaBu said:

 

Not entirely true. The reason that we have a "zoom" in game is because you can't easily account for the entire human field of vision on a normal monitor.

It has to be shrunk down to fit on screen, and the result is that in game objects will actually look much smaller than they would in real life.

 

It would help the debate if we could move away from thinking of it as "zoom". Essentially, your "normal" view in game, when you aren't aiming or holding [Shift], is unrealistically zoomed out, in order to give you a sense of a wide field of vision, because you are of course trying to view the world through a 24" monitor sitting a couple of feet in front of you. So when you hold [Shift], you aren't really zooming in - you are actually restoring your vision much closer to a realistic magnification, and objects will look much closer to their normal size - but of course, you lose that peripheral vision as a result.

 

Some people don't like this because they are holding down a key and finding their apparent "magnification" increases, so they instantly assume it's "magic eyeball zoom", and therefore, unrealistic. But it's not - it's not a particularly realistic mechanism, agreed, but the effect it achieves is actually closer to reality.

 

It's a compromise - but most things have to be, even in realistic games controlled with standard computer peripherals, and until everyone is using huge wrap-around monitors or VR, there's not an easy way to accurately recreate human vision within a game. Allowing the user to choose when they wish to restore the more realistic vision is about the best we can do at the moment.

 

Edit: just realised that I might have misrepresented your views a little, apologies! To clarify, I was making a case for the presence of a "zoom" function not to be considered unrealistic outright, but I do agree that it shouldn't be automatically applied when you bring up the sights as the OP wants, as this aids aiming in CQB. It should be up to the player to decide with the shift key, as it is now.

it helps fix the problems pixels have vs light. 

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The zoom represents focusing on the center of your field of vision, where the "resolution" of your eye is much higher than in your peripheral vision. It's not unrealistic, it is just a workaround for the limitations of a monitor with a uniform grid of pixels.

 

Therefore I agree with OP, focusing should not be tied to holding breath. I understand the argument of CQC, but in these cases you can always shoot without aiming down the sights. They could designate another keybind like in Arma, but I would understand if the Devs don't want that either. So if I had the choice, I would tie it to ADS.

 

But as this is a controversial topic and down to personal preference, they could make it an option in the settings and let each player decide which one they want to use.

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I agree that focusing shouldn't be directly tied to holding breath, but I don't want the "zoom" to always be applied when aiming down the sights.

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If I remember this right, the focus zoom mechanic (or whatever we wanna call it) already was in the game (on iron sights), people complained that it's unrealistic and you aren't able to zoom with your eyes. There's always someone complaining either way.

 

I think Squad is completely fine without it, thank you.

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On 9/13/2017 at 11:00 PM, MultiSquid said:

If I remember this right, the focus zoom mechanic (or whatever we wanna call it) already was in the game (on iron sights), people complained that it's unrealistic and you aren't able to zoom with your eyes.

Yeah I remember that the Devs commented on it a long time ago. But if they would have considered it to be unrealistic, they would have removed it completely and not bound it to hold breath. It's also still on the pistol ADS, just very subtle.

 

 

On 9/13/2017 at 11:00 PM, MultiSquid said:

There's always someone complaining either way.

So make it an option and let the players decide themselves - problem solved. ;)

 

(Edit to clarify: choose between zoom on ads and zoom on focus )

 

Edited by Peregrine

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Let's define this shiz I see people are getting confused already.

Zoom
- self explanatory

Focus
- steadying your weapon by controling your breathing

At the moment
- weapons with a magnifying optic(e.g. ACOG) allow you to Focus, by holding *Focus key*
- weapons with ironsights and non-magnifying optic(e.g. reddot) allow you to Focus AND Zoom, by holding the *Focus key*

OP's issue
- OP wants to be able to Zoom without Focusing

Proposed solutions
- remove Zoom from the game
- force Zoom whenever aiming
- force Toggle ADS and set *Zoom key* to holding *ADS key* as opposed to clicking it to enter/exit ADS

Additional concerns
- (optional) setting for players to decide whether they want to use Zoom
- balance between magnifying and non-magnifying weapons

Optional setting
- doesn't solve anything, it is a multiplayer game, people won't use a setting that puts them at a disadvantage even if they feel it is unrealistic

Optic vs. Ironsight balance
- the advantage to using an optic is that you retain your Zoom even when moving
- the advantage to ironsights is that you can switch between zoom levels

Proposed solutions
- remove Zoom from the game
- add Zoom for all weapons, regardless of sight

 

Edited by Peerun

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4 hours ago, Peerun said:

Optional setting
- doesn't solve anything, it is a multiplayer game, people won't use a setting that puts them at a disadvantage even if they feel it is unrealistic

 

If you can choose between zoom on ads and zoom on focus, there is no clear disadvantage, it's a trade-off.

You can either stay zoomed in longer without having to hold your breath or have a wider FOV for better peripheral vision in CQC, depending on your personal preference. You could even switch it ingame, to fit your current situation.

Don't see what's the problem here...

Edited by Peregrine

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14 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

 

If you can choose between zoom on ads and zoom on focus, there is no clear disadvantage, it's a trade-off.

You can either stay zoomed in longer without having to hold your breath or have a wider FOV for better peripheral vision in CQC, depending on your personal preference. You could even switch it ingame, to fit your current situation.

Don't see what's the problem here...


You were replying to multisquid, who said that you can't zoom with ironsights and you said "let players choose".
From that I understood that you meant to let players choose between either forced zoom or no zoom at all.
 

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I understood his post as "people complained before and people complain now", so I meant you could let them decide between the two. Maybe I didn't clarify that enough. :)

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Sure sure

I was referring to this part
 

On 9/13/2017 at 11:00 PM, MultiSquid said:

the focus zoom mechanic already was in the game

 

I think Squad is completely fine without it


The change from past tense to present, which I interpreted as him implying that "if he remembers correctly" the zoom on ironsights was removed.
Though now I am torn between that and it just being a clumsy way of saying that he doesn't want zoom to be ingame for ironsights, at all.

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On 9/9/2017 at 5:56 PM, Zylfrax791 said:

IRL when I look down the iron sights of my rifle my eyeball doesn't zoom magnify nor do lose my peripheral vision. When i throw on my ACOG I get some magification but I still don't lose my peripheral vision. This is how it should be in a realistic game.

Sure, but Squad is not a realistic game at all.

Anyway, I like shift mechanic. In terms of ergonomic it would be nice to have different buttons to focus and hold breath. Most of people would have these 2 functions on the same button but it's always nice to have this possibility to change.

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On 9/11/2017 at 9:51 AM, DaiaBu said:

It has to be shrunk down to fit on screen, and the result is that in game objects will actually look much smaller than they would in real life.

It heavily depends on the monitor, the object and distance to that object. If you play on 19" 1080p monitor and you look at a tank at 10 meters distance - sure it is smaller. But if you play on 32" 1080p monitor and you look at a mouse at 10 cm distance, that mouse will take half of your monitor at that distance and will be much bigger than in real life.

1200px-%D0%9C%D1%8B%D1%88%D1%8C_2.jpg

 

This mouse is already probably bigger on your monitor than in real life. Open it full screen and there will be your 10 cm distance in the game.

Edited by Skul

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On 9/14/2017 at 0:57 AM, Peregrine said:

So make it an option and let the players decide themselves - problem solved. ;)

(Edit to clarify: choose between zoom on ads and zoom on focus )

It is easily done even right now.

 

Zoom immediately on ads:

ActionMappings=(ActionName="Zoom",Key=RightMouseButton,bShift=False,bCtrl=False,bAlt=False,bCmd=False)
ActionMappings=(ActionName="Focus",Key=RightMouseButton,bShift=False,bCtrl=False,bAlt=False,bCmd=False)

 

Zoom on focus(default):

ActionMappings=(ActionName="Zoom",Key=RightMouseButton,bShift=False,bCtrl=False,bAlt=False,bCmd=False)
ActionMappings=(ActionName="Focus",Key=LeftShift,bShift=False,bCtrl=False,bAlt=False,bCmd=False)

 

The only thing you can't do right now is to bind 'hold breath' and 'focus' functions to different buttons. When you press shift by default, it makes your aim to move less and it also zooms in(focuses) a little.

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1 hour ago, Skul said:

It is easily done even right now.

 

Zoom immediately on ads:

ActionMappings=(ActionName="Zoom",Key=RightMouseButton,bShift=False,bCtrl=False,bAlt=False,bCmd=False)
ActionMappings=(ActionName="Focus",Key=RightMouseButton,bShift=False,bCtrl=False,bAlt=False,bCmd=False)

 

 

Have you tested that? This doesn't work for me at all, the focus is completely ignored and the game only goes to ads.

 

There are also some inherent problems with that:

It won't work for click-to-toggle on ads, only for hold, and as you already mentioned it will also hold your breath, which you only want to do when you are about to engage.

 

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9 hours ago, Skul said:

It heavily depends on the monitor, the object and distance to that object. If you play on 19" 1080p monitor and you look at a tank at 10 meters distance - sure it is smaller. But if you play on 32" 1080p monitor and you look at a mouse at 10 cm distance, that mouse will take half of your monitor at that distance and will be much bigger than in real life.

1200px-%D0%9C%D1%8B%D1%88%D1%8C_2.jpg

 

This mouse is already probably bigger on your monitor than in real life. Open it full screen and there will be your 10 cm distance in the game.

You're missing a key factor here, field of view.
If you were to put a properly sized mouse ingame, have your monitor fill your whole field of view and set your ingame field of view to that of real life(if the game allowed such a high number), then looked at the mouse from 10cm ingame distance it'd be exactly the right size. Except any projection errors caused by having a 3d environment display on a flat plane.

Edited by Peerun

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The best solution I can think of would be to place the camera behind the character and keep the field of view consistent with the monitor aspect ratio. And not render anything that might be behind the character but still in view of the camera.
That way you keep a roughly accurate field of view, without the issues of projecting an actual large field of view(stretching or things being larger than they seem)
e.g.
qBItNHC.png

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1 hour ago, Peerun said:

You're missing a key factor here, field of view.
If you were to put a properly sized mouse ingame, have your monitor fill your whole field of view and set your ingame field of view to that of real life(if the game allowed such a high number), then looked at the mouse from 10cm ingame distance it'd be exactly the right size. Except any projection errors caused by having a 3d environment display on a flat plane.

 

Thanks, I was about to point this out. Perhaps I worded my original post badly - I don't dispute that a larger monitor might help, but unless you have a monitor that is so large that it fills your entire field of vision, then you have to make compromises on the field of view in game, which often means scaling issues. It's not just Squad that suffers this problem - I remember Red Orchestra used to be infamous for so called "pixel hunting". When they introduced a mild zoom effect for ironsights lots of people were disappointed (including me), but I remember one of the developers giving a long and detailed explanation on the forums of the rationale for it, and suddenly it just made sense. Now I don't really object to such mechanisms in game as I don't see them as particularly unrealistic.

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1.8 m tall man, 100 m distance = 0.018 rad

If you want to maintain the same angular value, for a viewing distance of 2 feet the 1.8 m man at 100 m should be displayed as 0.432" tall. For a 12.75" high 1920x1080 16:9 screen (~24" diagonal) that means 37 pixels. Everyone has a different distance/monitor, and there are other considerations, however.




Here's a problem you get without any zoom.

I scaled this PSO-1 reticle (scaled reticle only and not the surrounding black mask) to be properly sized when magnifying 4x from the base FOV of ~91° (ie, no 'eye zoom').

7fKvAIm.png

See how the reticle has to be really small? Doesn't look or play that great.

 

 

 

Here's the same reticle correctly scaled when you zoom 4x from the base 'eye zoom' FOV of ~58°.
 

1Yz1jIz.png


Much better.

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