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jellyswim

Some ideas coming from a rising storm player...

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So I have a ton of hours in in the squad and RS2 vietnam and I really love both of them a whole lot. Some of the features, however, in rising storm are just little tweaks, but I feel would be incredibly useful in squad.

 

For example, there is a little opaque icon that appears just under the center screen showing if your cover is blocking the barrel of your rifle, and it's really nice because in almost all shooters, players fall victim to shooting the wall right in front of them which is not accurate to reality for the most part because soldiers tent to be aware of where their barrel is. 

 

I hope there is some way the devs can implement this as i think we can all agree it would be really useful in maps with lots of walls and vertical cover.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

irl you don't have that so I'm for skipping your idea. The more realism the better.

irl it's a lot easier to tell when your weapon barrel is above cover(window seal, small wall, etc.)

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2 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

irl you don't have that so I'm for skipping your idea. The more realism the better.

Ok I understand where you're coming from, but in REALITY you don't have hud telling you how many mags how have because you can just look down and see how many are on your vest. The idea of a perfectly realistic videogame in this sense is almost impossible because your sense of awareness is ALWAYS higher in real life, and that's the thought process I had because it's a whole lot easier to tell if you're gonna shoot the wall in front of you irl. The way The game renders your rifle makes it so even if it's physically going into a wall, you might not even notice, and for that reason, I personally thinking would be more realistic to have a notification.

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The argument that more HUD elements make the game less realistic doesn't make sense.

 

In reality you have all of your senses to understand your bodies position, in Squad all we have is limited Audio and Visual feedback. The lack of feel means things like whether your barrel is blocked or not can't be understood unless it's communicated through the other two senses and unfortunately because we're playing a game sometimes a collision box doesn't line up 100% to the model and what you think is a clear line of fire from your visuals is in fact blocked, this is easily remedied by an indicator. 

 

I don't want BF1 levels of HUD, even though even that is fairly limited in comparison to many other games, but there is room for more currently.

 

We've got an icon area in the bottom right that has enough space to communicate a few more crucial elements like barrel position, hell it could be added to the soldier stance indicator and it would only show up when your barrel is blocked.

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I'm not a fan of HUD clutter. I prefer the least amount of icons on screen as possible. One of the reasons I originally liked Squad, was the minimalistic HUD.

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Stom said:

The argument that more HUD elements make the game less realistic doesn't make sense.

I mostly agree with this (depends on how it's done, tho). I think a lot of peeps have the mindset that anything on screen is "clutter" - i don't agree at all - there are things that can assist with Spatial Awareness that do not have to be at all 'intrusive' or 'clutter'.

...

Unless this, of course >

Quote

...  BF1 levels of HUD,

 

 

there's been talk about weapon collisions with walls (etc.).

My assumption: the OverlapEvent(?) calling the Icon for your warning would be the same to activate the weapon collision - personally i think i'd prefer weapon collision, which will produce a more intuative action, rather than an icon i have to actually look at (or 'see'), which also distracts me from other things - ie: i shouldn't have to conciously look at an indicator for something that IRL would be a sub-concious action.

...

of course iv'e never had the oportunity to use the "weapon moves out of the way" type collision actions before, so i don't know if they are annoying or not  - just seems more logical, that's all.;)

 

Edited by LaughingJack

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2 hours ago, LaughingJack said:

there's been talk about weapon collisions with walls (etc.).

My assumption: the OverlapEvent(?) calling the Icon for your warning would be the same to activate the weapon collision - personally i think i'd prefer weapon collision, which will produce a more intuative action, rather than an icon i have to actually look at (or 'see'), which also distracts me from other things - ie: i shouldn't have to conciously look at an indicator for something that IRL would be a sub-concious action.

...

of course iv'e never had the oportunity to use the "weapon moves out of the way" type collision actions before, so i don't know if they are annoying or not  - just seems more logical, that's all.;)

 

I agree that an animation would be better. Honestly my post was more of a reaction to the people who shoot down any HUD icon suggestion in the name of realism, which doesn't make sense.

 

If your argument is that you prefer less icons on screen, that's cool so do I, but that has nothing to do with realism.

 

At the moment the game has a nice philosophy when it comes to the HUD and I think as the systems become more advanced we will need more icons. At the moment the only thing in the current iteration of the game that needs an icon is the supply for the logi truck.

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Statement no. 1 - In real life you are more easily aware of your surroundings and whatever object you might be holding in relation to those surroundings.
= True

Statement no. 2 - Putting HUD elements on the screen somehow brings you closer to that natural awareness and makes the whole experience better.
= False

It's not so hard to judge whether or not something is between the barrel and the target, as you make it out to be. I grasped the concept of "muzzle is lower than sight" in the first few hours I played of Squad.
I am actually very suprised that someone, who "has a ton of hours in Squad" would want something like this added.
To me this screams that the person requesting a feature like that is used to shooters, where the deciding factor is the center of the screen not the position of the muzzle.
And there's nothing wrong with being a bit comfounded, when a game does things differently from the perceived norm, BUT it's also not a reason to start changing that game.

 

6 hours ago, jellyswim said:

Ok I understand where you're coming from, but in REALITY you don't have hud telling you how many mags how have because you can just look down and see how many are on your vest. The idea of a perfectly realistic videogame in this sense is almost impossible because your sense of awareness is ALWAYS higher in real life, and that's the thought process I had because it's a whole lot easier to tell if you're gonna shoot the wall in front of you irl. The way The game renders your rifle makes it so even if it's physically going into a wall, you might not even notice, and for that reason, I personally thinking would be more realistic to have a notification.


Blatantly false on all accounts, except those mentioned above in this post.

"The way The game renders your rifle makes it so even if it's physically going into a wall, you might not even notice."
Wrong. Currently the game uses true first person. That means that whatever you see on your screen is what other people see and is the position of the weapon in the game.
After V10 you can pick up this argument again, since first and third person(ie external, you looking at other players) will be separated.

"The idea of a perfectly realistic videogame in this sense is almost impossible because your sense of awareness is ALWAYS higher in real life, and that's the thought process I had because it's a whole lot easier to tell if you're gonna shoot the wall in front of you irl."
I ask again, how is that a cause for introducing more HUD elements? The chances are that to the extent you are unaware the enemy players are also unaware, so the game is still fair.

"Ok I understand where you're coming from, but in REALITY you don't have hud telling you how many mags how have because you can just look down and see how many are on your vest."
That sort of thing is entirely achievable, particularly with the new animation system, I should hope. Just look at a game like Outlast 2, which shows you bandages and bateries on your vest and in pockets, when you look down.
The current magazine HUD is already slightly unrealistic, as it also shows you roughly how much ammo is in each magazine, but I won't go into that.

It's enough to say that full HUD or no HUD makes little difference in raw gameplay, but the overall experience suffers more from extensive HUD. In all cases, in all games. And I double dare you to prove me wrong.
 

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7 hours ago, SniPer0791 said:

More clutter, more gadgets, more nonsense on screen. No thanks.

 

5 hours ago, Dubs said:

I'm not a fan of HUD clutter. I prefer the least amount of icons on screen as possible. One of the reasons I originally liked Squad, was the minimalistic HUD.

 

What about a tiny icon in the lower right corner like the firemode (1,3 or A) that only appears if your gunbarrel line of sight hit a wall/objekt within 1,2 or 3m? This would be a compromise and  over 99% of the time the icon dosent appear except you point your gun all the time to the ground.

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You have to remember that, as far as I know, weapon resting on objects is still planned for the future.

 

I guess that the problem OP is describing will be handled, when that mechanism is integrated.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, koschilein said:

You have to remember that, as far as I know, weapon resting on objects is still planned for the future.

I guess that the problem OP is describing will be handled, when that mechanism is integrated.


I doubt it. What OP is describing can happen when you stand a fair distance away from wall. In all actuality, to completely eliminate this "issue", you'd have to integrate an icon that shows you whether there is anything preventing the bullet from hitting the enemy. At that point you might aswell add aimbot.

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PUBG does a similar thing, but I'm not a fan of the general concept itself. I just learned it the hard way, and would like to learn these things for the sake of having to think of other aspects in Squad than just have the same thought process as every other shooter.

 

Just make sure you have plenty of space and position yourself properly. Not every single surface, window or opening should be open to shooting above or though. That's what makes Squad a little more than just a standard cookie cutter from map to map, everything behaves a little differently.

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1 hour ago, Peerun said:

It's not so hard to judge whether or not something is between the barrel and the target, as you make it out to be. I grasped the concept of "muzzle is lower than sight" in the first few hours I played of Squad.
I am actually very suprised that someone, who "has a ton of hours in Squad" would want something like this added.
To me this screams that the person requesting a feature like that is used to shooters, where the deciding factor is the center of the screen not the position of the muzzle.
And there's nothing wrong with being a bit comfounded, when a game does things differently from the perceived norm, BUT it's also not a reason to start changing that game.

 

My want for a solution comes from my hours of play. There are many objects in Squad with collision meshes that cover an area that the model itself doesn't represent in geometry.

 

I've had many instances of getting the jump on an enemy or finding a place I think would be a perfect firing position blocked by the invisible collision mesh of a ruined wall or rock. This is a reality of modern video games and I'm not damning the devs for having simplified collision mesh but it would be nice to have some feedback of when I've got the barrel of my gun inside a collision mesh.

 

I'm not fussed whether it's an icon or dynamic weapon lowering but the issue is that sometimes what is visually clear is occasional an obstacle for your weapon and it would be nice if that was communicated to the player somehow.

1 hour ago, Peerun said:

It's enough to say that full HUD or no HUD makes little difference in raw gameplay, but the overall experience suffers more from extensive HUD. In all cases, in all games. And I double dare you to prove me wrong.

The issue with that statement is it's purely subjective. I also don't want HUD all over the screen but I'm happy for extra icons to be added to the bottom right area that is already dedicated to HUD elements.

 

Also, while you're right that it is feasible to add the current HUD elements like magazine count to the players character that still has a lot of issues. It worked in Outlast 2 because there was only one character and you had a very limited pool of items. In Squad we've got everything from Grenadiers with belts of grenades around their waste, LATs with backpacks of rounds and Medics with sachels full of bandages. All of this could be displayed in an ultra immersive animation where you open up your bag and visually see what you've got but that's a hell of a lot of effort to solve something we've already got a solution for.

 

This also doesn't solve the lack of the sense of feel. If you've got an RPG pack in reality you can feel the weight of the rounds in it, that's what the ammo icon represents. When you pull out a magazine and put it in a pouch on your vest you feel its weight and put it in a specific place, this is what the magazine counter and colours represent.

 

You've got to remember what Squad is trying to accomplish. From day one it has set out to be somewhere between mainstream shooters like battlefield and more simulator focused games like Arma and none of those games completely do away with the HUD. The only game I've played in recent years 

that has made a concerted effort to go for ultra immersion is Escape from Tarkov and even that game has a block based inventory screen you open to check to check your magazines.

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9 hours ago, jellyswim said:

Ok I understand where you're coming from, but in REALITY you don't have hud telling you how many mags how have because you can just look down and see how many are on your vest. The idea of a perfectly realistic videogame in this sense is almost impossible because your sense of awareness is ALWAYS higher in real life, and that's the thought process I had because it's a whole lot easier to tell if you're gonna shoot the wall in front of you irl. The way The game renders your rifle makes it so even if it's physically going into a wall, you might not even notice, and for that reason, I personally thinking would be more realistic to have a notification.

For the record I'm for getting rid of the ammo HUD as well. We'll see what the animation update brings but hopefully with the finished game all you will see is your weapon and no arcade stuff.

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Posted (edited)

a visual or audio clue to help us familiarise ourselves with the location of the barrel might be the nicest option, not a HUD graphic but an animation change. certainly to help new players.

Over 1500 hours in I am quite familiar with the barrel location in relation to the various sights and adapt to it. I do still hit things occasionally when in a rush tho.

Weapon resting will be nice and will likely change this a bit but I expect it will have limitations such as nearness to a compatible rest location. Of course those of us with the better KD ratios know that standing back from windows etc is smarter than poking the gun out so the weapon resting may not be available.

 

What i'd like to see is small animation reactions when your barrel is touching something, it doesnt need to have collision which prevents movement, just a little jiggle of the gun in a nice way to show it has made contact. this could be combined with an audio clue, eg metal on stone.

 

This system could have very low priority as it is only triggering a local event for the player as a helper. Local audio and video effects shown to 3rd person viewers would be nice but hardly gamechanging, just keeping it to the players 1st person view would be fine.

Edited by suds

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Weapon resting, weapon lowering and automatic adjustment should get rid of these annoying problems.

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On 8/31/2017 at 7:15 AM, Zylfrax791 said:

For the record I'm for getting rid of the ammo HUD as well. We'll see what the animation update brings but hopefully with the finished game all you will see is your weapon and no arcade stuff.

Thats pretty wishful thinking dude. The devs have said a million times that they won't put realism in front of game play in most cases, and removing the ammo and mag count would be completely counter intuitive because you have no awareness of you're ammo apart from that. Like I said before, we'll never have as much awareness in game as in real life, so by taking out things like your ammo hud, you'd in essence be making a dumber soldier. That's not more realistic, it's stupid.

Edited by jellyswim
Typo

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On 8/31/2017 at 7:48 AM, banOkay said:

Weapon resting, weapon lowering and automatic adjustment should get rid of these annoying problems.

Yeah I hope so. A context based weapon movement mechanic would be a great addition.

On 8/31/2017 at 7:27 AM, suds said:

a visual or audio clue to help us familiarise ourselves with the location of the barrel might be the nicest option, not a HUD graphic but an animation change. certainly to help new players.

Over 1500 hours in I am quite familiar with the barrel location in relation to the various sights and adapt to it. I do still hit things occasionally when in a rush tho.

Weapon resting will be nice and will likely change this a bit but I expect it will have limitations such as nearness to a compatible rest location. Of course those of us with the better KD ratios know that standing back from windows etc is smarter than poking the gun out so the weapon resting may not be available.

 

What i'd like to see is small animation reactions when your barrel is touching something, it doesnt need to have collision which prevents movement, just a little jiggle of the gun in a nice way to show it has made contact. this could be combined with an audio clue, eg metal on stone.

 

This system could have very low priority as it is only triggering a local event for the player as a helper. Local audio and video effects shown to 3rd person viewers would be nice but hardly gamechanging, just keeping it to the players 1st person view would be fine.

Yeah I like the idea

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On 8/31/2017 at 4:45 AM, Peerun said:


Statement no. 2 - Putting HUD elements on the screen somehow brings you closer to that natural awareness and makes the whole experience better.
= False

I'm not saying that more hud elements are persay more "realistic" , but is absolutely more accurate to how soldiers operate in REALITY. With out any on screen information (with the way the game is now) players would have no concept of things that are blatantly obvious to a real soldier. My thought is that it's alright to sacrifice a little of the full visual realism aspect on order to show information that's easily available to real soldiers.

Edited by jellyswim
Typo

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I don't mind the idea of having HUD support for things that relate to a normal soldiers senses/battle awareness, when all you get is a visual and audio inputs. it's actually more unrealistic that you have no (almost) physical inputs like where you're shot and whether your barrel is inside a mud wall or not.

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2 hours ago, jellyswim said:

Thats pretty wishful thinking dude. The devs have said a million times that they won't put realism in front of game play in most cases, and removing the ammo and mag count would be completely counter intuitive because you have no awareness of you're ammo apart from that. Like I said before, we'll never have as much awareness in game as in real life, so by taking out things like your ammo hud, you'd in essence be making a dumber soldier. That's not more realistic, it's stupid.

So players are completely incapable of counting the rounds they've shot from a magazine and then subsequently how many mags they've used? Interesting.

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2 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

So players are completely incapable of counting the rounds they've shot from a magazine and then subsequently how many mags they've used? Interesting.

Obviously not dude, but soldiers in real life don't have to memorize the amount of ammo they have either. Your idea that no hud makes it authentic is just plain illogical and I feel like you should already know that. Yes, the devs want a realistic experience, but they also want a smooth and easy to learn game that feels fluid. Taking away the hud isn't intuitive to what their goals are and if you'd rather have a 100% realistic war experience, why not just fly to Syria and experience that personally?

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On 8/31/2017 at 4:45 AM, Peerun said:


It's enough to say that full HUD or no HUD makes little difference in raw gameplay, but the overall experience suffers more from extensive HUD. In all cases, in all games. And I double dare you to prove me wrong.
 

Bruh I'm not trying to turn this into call of duty, I just want some way to be able to tell if your barrel is blocked, an the way rising storm did it would be easy to implement without some form of animation overhaul. Sure if like to see something more authentic like lowering your gun when there's a collision, but theres no guarantee that's gonna happen soon if at all, so for the time being, I think this would suffice. And it doesn't have to be cluttering either. Maybe just a tiny little red x that appears next to your ammo or something...

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