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Zylfrax791

More Persistent Game

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Just a hypothetical question here but would you play a game of Squad over the course of a Saturday or Sunday that had 8 hours on the clock and a rough estimate of say 50,000 tickets? Obviously it would have to be on Yeho, Kohat or Goro and the game logic would need to be modified probably by increasing the cap zones and eliminating ticket bleed. 

 

That got me thinking though, would an even longer game that went on for days be possible?

 

 

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Assifuah   

In one sitting? Probably not.

 

Over the course of days/weeks? Absolutely! It would basically be the same as MSO back in the ARMA 2 days (in ARMA 3 it's ALiVE). If you could manage to get persistence working on the state of objectives, vehicles positions, FOB positions and whatnot then a persistent style campaign or mission would be cool. You probably wouldn't need to save every individual player location, just the spawn points.. that way everyone loads in where they want to and be organised.

 

Of course, you'd need a bigger map (probably 6x6km or even 8x8km) and you would most likely have to run it as a series of events so that people can't just jump on in the middle of the game while most players are offline.

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Gatzby   
1 hour ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Just a hypothetical question here but would you play a game of Squad over the course of a Saturday or Sunday that had 8 hours on the clock and a rough estimate of say 50,000 tickets? Obviously it would have to be on Yeho, Kohat or Goro and the game logic would need to be modified probably by increasing the cap zones and eliminating ticket bleed. 

 

That got me thinking though, would an even longer game that went on for days be possible?

 

 

Argh! There was a mode for something like World of Warplanes (I cannot remember which, just the genre) that had plans for more persistent campaigns. Something that would last a few days, allow some character progression, and mimic real battles. Not sure it ever launched, but the appeal of something "bigger than just a round" is appealing, imho. I'm an old PlanetSide nerd though. =)

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LugNut   

As has been said, I wouldn't want to play it in one sitting, but a persistent match could be fun, although, I'm not sure all on one map would be fun. What about a linked map system where you had maps of similar environment and once you pushed one team back to main, or whatever the trigger was, you'd switch to the next map, with a short break in between. All the applicable stats and squads would stay the same, it'd be like a tactical retreat for the losing team and moving into new territory for the winners. 

 

It would also be interesting if there were periodic short truces which would allow each side to regroup, maybe build up fortifications, that sort of thing. 

Edited by LugNut

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It doesn't happen very often but I've played rounds that went the full duration. As it stands now because of ticket bleed it seems as though the meta has simply become about who ultimately controls the center objective and can either maintain that defense and win by attrition or perhaps assault the next flag and increase the bleed even more. Variations to this are rushing and fully preventing the opposing team from ever capping their first flag however in any case 99% of most rounds are over in around an hour.

 

That said, say for instance the clock & tickets were simply doubled and the bleed was removed. Would it then morph the gameplay into a more realistic seige style with teams simply superfobbing their second flag and then conducting raids and fire missions?

 

 

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Doesn't space games have battles like this...EVE online?  The battle never ends til its over... a persistent online world that is only changed by the players inhabiting it....over time.  VR worlds of the future where entire planets and star systems are getaways for the human adventurer...That is where we are heading into the void of inner space... the matrix of time and internet connected full time even while your sleeping... The dream has come to live in the universe of the unlimited cyber space of the future...   

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2 hours ago, XRobinson said:

Doesn't space games have battles like this...EVE online?  The battle never ends til its over... a persistent online world that is only changed by the players inhabiting it....over time.  VR worlds of the future where entire planets and star systems are getaways for the human adventurer...That is where we are heading into the void of inner space... the matrix of time and internet connected full time even while your sleeping... The dream has come to live in the universe of the unlimited cyber space of the future...   

Oh I wouldn't want to get that carried away but I personally was just thinking that a longer game would be cool on the weekends. A total seige mode that would allow people to build up enormous defenses. 

 

I could however see another server that had a persistent mode enabled with an extremely large amount of tickets but no time limit. Similar to Jensen's Range but more of a sandbox server.

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moppel   
9 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Just a hypothetical question here but would you play a game of Squad over the course of a Saturday or Sunday that had 8 hours on the clock and a rough estimate of say 50,000 tickets? Obviously it would have to be on Yeho, Kohat or Goro and the game logic would need to be modified probably by increasing the cap zones and eliminating ticket bleed. 

 

That got me thinking though, would an even longer game that went on for days be possible?

 

 

Well what keept me playing Arma 3 + ACE+ACRE e.g for around 4-5  hours was its complexity in mechanics  ,distances and  pace regarding support and supplyies .

But even that 5 hour sit in where the maximum possible spare time i could free up on a weekend.

While i personaly see SQUAD as less complex i see no point in this synteticly prolonged fight.

What i think could work ( not sure as Squad isn´t Arma hardcore but also not BF arcady )would be object based evolution gamplay : strat of to free a map ,defend counterattack--> move the battle to extendet area/version off the map or induce suddenly  simulat AI support to turn around the tides of war and rapidly change force constalations.

I think a good compromise would be a Rush like game mode with a huge map that would alow "warfare" like felling due to progress/degress without making SQUAD to slow/arma like for the most ppl.

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5 hours ago, XRobinson said:

No tickets, just lives...you lose all your men ....game over...

Pretty sure devs have said there will never ever officially be TDM in vanilla Squad. However, once the game is finished and the Steam Workshop is open though it will be a different story trust me.

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LugNut   
On 8/26/2017 at 7:53 PM, XRobinson said:

No tickets, just lives...you lose all your men ....game over...

Instead of tickets, what about supply points? When you capture an objective, you capture points, the more fortified it is by the enemy, the more points you get. Once you lose all your points, there's a sudden death period and if you haven't gained any points in that time, the game is over. 

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37 minutes ago, LugNut said:

Instead of tickets, what about supply points? When you capture an objective, you capture points, the more fortified it is by the enemy, the more points you get. Once you lose all your points, there's a sudden death period and if you haven't gained any points in that time, the game is over. 

Interesting concept. I mean correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the ticket concept came from Battlefield anyway? Might be cool to invent an entirely new game logic system.

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There has been threads on this before...about ways without using tickets...I like just having lives, ammo, vehicles with just limited supply, and create circumstances where they can get resupplied if ran out, and circumstances where no more ressupply, then you have to steal it from enemy if can... :)

 

So, say your team was down to its last supply vehicle, and you got plenty of ammo at base to distribute, but then you lose that last supply vehicle, you must then improvise, use other vehicles to supply, you may have to change tactics because of it, fall back and defend, or have squads supply at base with what can carry and hope they do not need resupply or steal the enemies supply vehicle if can or destroy it so they have same problem.  This kinds of things can happen in games where vehicles are only so many and they can never respawn, unless you put in circumstances where they can get another important asset vehicle.  Same with fuel supply, you could have half your vehicles still working but your enemy blew up your fuel depot, now you just got whats left in Jerry cans, and what you can steal, you are limited in mobility now until the depot is repaired and resuplied, your tactics change again...

 

What if idea:. What if each squad was allocated only so many men, and the only way to get more men if your squad ran out or was close to running out was to get it approved by commander assuming commander had these reserve units left to distribute as one of his duties...???  This could be way for commander to have some leverage on what squads do by dissolving and reforming new squads based on performance...

Edited by XRobinson
elaborate

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LugNut   
22 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Interesting concept. I mean correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the ticket concept came from Battlefield anyway? Might be cool to invent an entirely new game logic system.

Yeah, it came from Battlefield, I don't know if the concept existed before that. It might work well in a persistent game mode, since you'd have more time to create more elaborate defenses. Instead of a ticket penalty for deaths and vehicles, just increase the respawn times. So, your choice would be to build defenses which would enable you to defend a point better, but cost you more when you lose it. It would also force the attackers to coordinate to attack a fortified position, which if you're not constrained by a timer, or tickets, you could do. Right now, mobility and speed wins all matches, there's little teamwide strategic action other than that. 

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5 minutes ago, LugNut said:

Right now, mobility and speed wins all matches, there's little teamwide strategic action other than that. 

Exactly. The cheese meta is either blitzkrieg to the middle point and super fob it or rush the enemies first point.

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snom   

Something a little field that could make things interesting, is have no fixed capture points and have completely randomized 'zones/points' that have to be secured which could be anywhere on the map. Once secured, a new zone randomly pops up, Team has to capture zone and defend 'X' many zones. Your team captures your zone to stop bleed and you attack enemy zones to make them bleed. 

Just a rough concept...

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1 hour ago, snom said:

Something a little field that could make things interesting, is have no fixed capture points and have completely randomized 'zones/points' that have to be secured which could be anywhere on the map. Once secured, a new zone randomly pops up, Team has to capture zone and defend 'X' many zones. Your team captures your zone to stop bleed and you attack enemy zones to make them bleed. 

Just a rough concept...

This mode already exists but nobody really hosts it because it will empty out a server pronto.

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The way you could look at it...is do you try to win by occupying ground and space or can you win by eliminating the enemies ability to fight on ground and space?  In other words do you spend men and material to occupy flags or do you go for taking out the supply lines and ability of the enemy to supply therefore they cant defend those flags.  So which of these or other tactics make the game last longer and be more persistent?  I say if you  add in vulnerable supply targets that must be defended as well as your bases and flag points, you get a longer game....maybe?  And you only get so many men and material....limited and therefore scarce resources make for a more strategic game...

Edited by XRobinson

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LugNut   

It might be interesting to have a persistent game mode that emulates commands coming down from upon high, so instead of the entirely predictable AAS we have now, you'd start with an empty sandbox and objectives would arrive randomly and in different forms. So, maybe the first one would be like; for blue team "Capture and hold point X for 15 minutes", team red "We've received intel that team red is going to attack point X! Defend it!". The objectives could be anything, they could be like AAS, they could be kind of like Insurgency, they could be a convoy objective, a VIP objective, a KOH mode with a long ready up time to build, you could get rewarded by completing your objective with arty, more points, free vehicles, whatever you could come up with. You'd soon have a map littered with fortifications and wrecked vehicles, which would both provide atmosphere and options for cover/defenses that we don't have now. 

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Its all in how you define persistence....persistence of an unlimited supply of men and material or persistence of being able to plan and defeat your enemy the way it is close as you can get it to real life battles.  I tend to lean to the latter because the other seems like just going around in circles, spawn, die and re spawn faster than the enemy can because you die less; seems like hitting your head against a wall as fast as you can til the other guys head breaks first being devoid of strategy, planning, tactics, brains....but that's just me I guess.  Its nice to have a long battle hard fought and won, but by what means? unlimited spawns and ammo, vehicles ect... or by using your brain and working to neutralize the enemy where it counts, with what you got available to use?  Not being told where to attack and defend but by attacking and defending where the enemy lets you or requires you to? 

 

The commander is not telling you where to attack and defend as much as the enemy is, the commander is just there to provide you the info and give you a strategy of a best possible way to deal with the enemy based on Intel and assets that are available to the him and be a manager of info and assets to get that best strategy implemented to the team.   

Edited by XRobinson
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33 minutes ago, XRobinson said:

Its all in how you define persistence....persistence of an unlimited supply of men and material or persistence of being able to plan and defeat your enemy the way it is close as you can get it to real life battles.  I tend to lean to the latter because the other seems like just going around in circles, spawn, die and re spawn faster than the enemy can because you die less; seems like hitting your head against a wall as fast as you can til the other guys head breaks first being devoid of strategy, planning, tactics, brains....but that's just me I guess.  Its nice to have a long battle hard fought and won, but by what means? unlimited spawns and ammo, vehicles ect... or by using your brain and working to neutralize the enemy where it counts, with what you got available to use?  Not being told where to attack and defend but by attacking and defending where the enemy lets you or requires you to? 

Personally I feel like because of all the nannyesque server rules the gameplay has evolved into something quite linear compared to the beginning of vehicles when everything was more organic, realistic and unpredictable.

 

Now its literally become like the instructions on the back of a shampoo bottle; shampoo, rinse & repeat. Always around 70-100 empty servers at any given moment. It's definitely having an effect on the number of people playing: 

 

http://steamcharts.com/app/393380

 

 

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I have thought of giving minimalism a try on a map idea....what I mean is like the plane I modeled that was in the film Flight of the Phoenix , a single asset in a desert that is the sole item to winning or getting out alive....take this idea and expand on it for a mod.  Make water and fuel a big part of the game in a desert climate war game.  Few vehicles for both sides, outpost in the desert separated by inhospitable desert in all directions, you must get there and attack the desert outpost or bases with the limited water and fuel and vehicles at your disposal, if you fail at managing these assets you lose regardless if you hold the outpost or base because your going to die without water and fuel anyway, because you wont be able to get out of the desert climate...you up for a challenging mod game of this type?  This type of game would have persistence in that it takes time to cross the desert and keep yourself alive long enough to defeat the enemy and get out alive, because if you succeed in eliminating the enemy you then must also get out and back to the starting base to win..... just letting you in on some of my ideas about how to make a more persistent game mod... and game.  

 

Also in this type of game, where water and fuel are utmost important as ammo and men, the team members will all want in on how the assets are managed and know they cant win the game without managing the assets and keeping them in mind always while they are attacking the enemy in the desert...they will not be inclined to spawn, die re spawn, because you wont be able to do that to win...and it forces the team to work as a team and not as an individual... :)

Edited by XRobinson

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1 hour ago, XRobinson said:

I have thought of giving minimalism a try on a map idea....what I mean is like the plane I modeled that was in the film Flight of the Phoenix , a single asset in a desert that is the sole item to winning or getting out alive....take this idea and expand on it for a mod.  Make water and fuel a big part of the game in a desert climate war game.  Few vehicles for both sides, outpost in the desert separated by inhospitable desert in all directions, you must get there and attack the desert outpost or bases with the limited water and fuel and vehicles at your disposal, if you fail at managing these assets you lose regardless if you hold the outpost or base because your going to die without water and fuel anyway, because you wont be able to get out of the desert climate...you up for a challenging mod game of this type?  This type of game would have persistence in that it takes time to cross the desert and keep yourself alive long enough to defeat the enemy and get out alive, because if you succeed in eliminating the enemy you then must also get out and back to the starting base to win..... just letting you in on some of my ideas about how to make a more persistent game mod... and game.  

 

Also in this type of game, where water and fuel are utmost important as ammo and men, the team members will all want in on how the assets are managed and know they cant win the game without managing the assets and keeping them in mind always while they are attacking the enemy in the desert...they will not be inclined to spawn, die re spawn, because you wont be able to do that to win...and it forces the team to work as a team and not as an individual... :)

Honestly until the game is actually finished I'd like to see a few new smaller infantry only maps added to the rotation. And not just new layers on old maps but completly new quick & dirty maps to go back to old school squad. 

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