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Silly_Savage

"Ammo FOBs" Promote Unhealthy Gameplay

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“Ammo FOBs” promote unhealthy gameplay, are detrimental to the role of logistics, and can cause games to snowball out of control. They should either be removed or reworked until a solution conducive to healthy gameplay is found.

 

Let’s start off by defining what an “Ammo FOB” actually is. An “Ammo FOB” is when a squad leader places down a radio and an ammo crate, builds them up, rearms his squad, and then proceeds to tear them back down, ad infinitum until his squad has been fully rearmed. This can be done practically anywhere and at anytime. As one could imagine, this system is easily abusable and unhealthy for gameplay.

 

To emphasize my point, I’d like to share a segment of one of Karmakut’s latest videos. Let me first preface by saying that I do not blame him in any way, shape, or form for utilizing a gameplay mechanic to his benefit. In fact, you’d be purposely putting yourself at a disadvantage not to. With that said, skip ahead to roughly 22:30 and onwards to see exactly what I’m referring to by unhealthy gameplay.

 

Time Stamped Video Here

 

For those who are unable or unwilling to watch the video, allow me to summarize. Karmakut and his squad have been performing overwatch in the mountainous regions north of the Kohat Toi River Valley for the duration of the round. Multiple attempts at resupplying his squad via logistics trucks have ended in failure due to the cumbersome terrain or enemy ambushes. To resupply, they’d ideally be forced to either pull back to friendly lines or risk another logistics truck run. Either way, any momentum towards pushing the next flag would be lost or ill advised due to being under equipped.

 

However, by repeatedly exploiting “Ammo FOBs”, not only were they able to fully resupply themselves completely out of thin air, but they were also able to continuously pressure the objectives and eventually push the enemy team all the way back to their main base spawn. You don’t have to be familiar with all the ins and outs of Squad to know this mechanic is bad for gameplay in a variety of ways.

 

The most notable of such is how insignificant they make the concept of logistics. Why wait for a logi truck that may or may not be destroyed en route (costing valuable tickets and disrupting your team’s supply line) when you can just magically spawn infinite ammo from out of the blue? On a lesser but equally irritating note, you’re also able to swap kits whenever you want while out in the field. While not necessarily a bad thing, it begs the question: where are all these weapons and munitions coming from? Is that a rocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me? Running logistics is already deemed “boring” by a good majority of players, there is even less incentive now that “Ammo FOBs” are meta.

 

I could go on and on about how “Ammo FOBs” can potentially snowball a game out of control, or how they artificially and needlessly accelerate gameplay, yet there are an endless amount of possibilities and my intention was never to write a novel. Suffice to say, with no real restrictions on where and when you can get unlimited ammo and kits, unhealthy gameplay is bound to rear its ugly head.

 

Thoughts?

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Psyrus   

I totally agree with the content posted above. I don't personally use ammo fobs, and while I don't openly criticize those who do, I feel like it cheapens the experience. Having riflemen with ammo packs would be far more comfortable for me, so they'd at least have to die to respawn with a new one, costing both tickets and a spawn off the rally. Not to mention that they should technically not be carrying rockets in those ammo packs, but that's a different story. 

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Frinz   

I also agree, but it's weird that it made it into the game in the first place. I have to admit that me and my squad used this mechanic in one or two desperate situations (medics out of bandages), it still feels cheap tho.

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6 hours ago, Silly_Savage said:

 

 

“Ammo FOBs” promote unhealthy gameplay, are detrimental to the role of logistics, and can cause games to snowball out of control. They should either be removed or reworked until a solution conducive to healthy gameplay is found.

 

Let’s start off by defining what an “Ammo FOB” actually is. An “Ammo FOB” is when a squad leader places down a radio and an ammo crate, builds them up, rearms his squad, and then proceeds to tear them back down, ad infinitum until his squad has been fully rearmed. This can be done practically anywhere and at anytime. As one could imagine, this system is easily abusable and unhealthy for gameplay.

 

To emphasize my point, I’d like to share a segment of one of Karmakut’s latest videos. Let me first preface by saying that I do not blame him in any way, shape, or form for utilizing a gameplay mechanic to his benefit. In fact, you’d be purposely putting yourself at a disadvantage not to. With that said, skip ahead to roughly 22:30 and onwards to see exactly what I’m referring to by unhealthy gameplay.

 

Time Stamped Video Here

 

For those who are unable or unwilling to watch the video, allow me to summarize. Karmakut and his squad have been performing overwatch in the mountainous regions north of the Kohat Toi River Valley for the duration of the round. Multiple attempts at resupplying his squad via logistics trucks have ended in failure due to the cumbersome terrain or enemy ambushes. To resupply, they’d ideally be forced to either pull back to friendly lines or risk another logistics truck run. Either way, any momentum towards pushing the next flag would be lost or ill advised due to being under equipped.

 

However, by repeatedly exploiting “Ammo FOBs”, not only were they able to fully resupply themselves completely out of thin air, but they were also able to continuously pressure the objectives and eventually push the enemy team all the way back to their main base spawn. You don’t have to be familiar with all the ins and outs of Squad to know this mechanic is bad for gameplay in a variety of ways.

 

The most notable of such is how insignificant they make the concept of logistics. Why wait for a logi truck that may or may not be destroyed en route (costing valuable tickets and disrupting your team’s supply line) when you can just magically spawn infinite ammo from out of the blue? On a lesser but equally irritating note, you’re also able to swap kits whenever you want while out in the field. While not necessarily a bad thing, it begs the question: where are all these weapons and munitions coming from? Is that a rocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me? Running logistics is already deemed “boring” by a good majority of players, there is even less incentive now that “Ammo FOBs” are meta.

 

I could go on and on about how “Ammo FOBs” can potentially snowball a game out of control, or how they artificially and needlessly accelerate gameplay, yet there are an endless amount of possibilities and my intention was never to write a novel. Suffice to say, with no real restrictions on where and when you can get unlimited ammo and kits, unhealthy gameplay is bound to rear its ugly head.

 

Thoughts?

 

Previously you only had to wait around less than 8 minutes for the FOB to accumulate enough manna for an ammo crate and if you were kind of lingering around the area it would build up all kinds of points for other junk so I don't see the rub really. Bottom line the whole fob thing got nerfed... I'm not sure why you don't understand that.

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Psyrus   
58 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Previously you only had to wait around less than 8 minutes for the FOB to accumulate enough manna for an ammo crate and if you were kind of lingering around the area it would build up all kinds of points for other junk so I don't see the rub really. Bottom line the whole fob thing got nerfed... I'm not sure why you don't understand that.

 

He clearly understands the difference between the previous versions and the current incarnation of the FOB system. His grievances are with the very odd mechanic of dropping a fob and then immediately an ammo crate while holding F on the fob to deconstruct it, while the squad members shovel the ammo and consume it for reloads... then repeating the process if the first one was insufficient. I hope it was implemented this way because the inventory overhaul is on hold until 4.16 is fully integrated and they didn't want to bother implementing ammo packs into the old inventory system that will soon be obsolete, because as S_S points out, it invalidates quite a lot of the point of properly run logistics when you can just poop out an "ammo fob" wherever you so please. 

 

Essentially, the logistics system evolves in each major release, and so talking about it in these kinds of threads is a little pointless until it's declared "final", but I suppose since there is a feedback section (which this isn't in), we might as well put our 2c in. 

Edited by Psyrus

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Axel   

I use ammo FOBs and will continue to use them, until we get a ammo box for the rifleman class or from vehicles. At the moment there is no better option to resupply your medics and ATs or just to run back to your teams only fob 2 km away.

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Gatzby   

Thanks for the post! We're definitely watching the effects of the changes from 9.6. There will no doubt be further tweaking until it feels right. =)

 

What changes do you folks think could make this more fun? Short of reverting -- we've seen that already. =P Ammo bags, I think, are a good line of thinking there.

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Frinz   

I wouldnt call it an exploit, i guess the devs where well aware of that when they changed the fob mechanics, I can't imagine that this is something they didn't think of.

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Assifuah   

Most logical explanation to it being present is the fact that the community might need time to adjust to the changes. Not everyone knows the ins and outs of mechanics or how important certain aspects of the game are, so they need an adjustment period.

Changing the FOB mechanics from starting with ammo resources and not losing them to flat out starting with 0 and using them at a decent rate would turn most public servers into chaos with FOBs that have no ammo resources to use at all and people having nowhere to resupply.

 

Just endure it, it's well known to the developers and it will change.

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.Bole   

This not a bug and not an exploit, i guess its just a placeholder until something better comes. Either stuff like deploying fobs with crates system like in PR or something better, who knows.

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Socrates   

I personally think it is a waste of time trying to take down 1 ammo fob yourself (it takes time to take down for just 1).

 

Also, it feels a bit unnatural too. Ammo fobs are basically saying squad leaders have unlimited supplies of ammo even though it takes a while to take up and take down.

 

I do not use ammo fobs, i just set a FOB down and activate it.

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homfri   

Its a cheesy mechanic i think meant as a stop gap until classes/inventory can institute extra ammunition carrying.

 

I remember attacking some point and i made about 6 FOB's just for RPG ammo. 

 

Haven't done it since tho, never put myself and my squad in a situation where its needed. And if they ask i always try to say "ah darn, within 400 meters" 

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-MG   

First of all, A FOB should spawn with no ammo and building materials imo. Makes FOB placement a more critical process.  
Nothing but logic here. Why else have a logi in game ?. *shrugs* For content sake ?. coolness factor ?.

The recent removal of auto points regen' on FOB was the 1st step of making logis more relevant. Now let's make them crucial to keep frontlines functional.

Foxhole is a great game for example that represents that. No logi network ?, no guns, no ammo, no building material, no spawning, no defending captured towns, no FOB, no artillery, no defence. 









   




  

Edited by -MG

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Kendo   

I would really like to hear what people think of this, especially if you can see why it would be rubbish.

 

I totally agree.  FOB placement should yield 0 ammo and 0 build points.  Here is another video of just how ridiculous this can all get: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDPd2wA6fdo .  Right now it makes little sense (where did it all come from?), it becomes the meta if exploited (see link) and promotes an arcadey way of playing.

 

Fix?: IF one wanted to try the tactic shown in the video, there is one easy way of making it a) make sense, b) allow strategy but not exploits and c) allow for a more of a realistic or "roleplay-ish" way of doing things.. Moreover, this goes for FOB strategy in general.

 

1) Assume that all fobs are placed with 0 supplies of any kind when created.

2) The use of a logi vehicle then becomes necessary for that squad to create their ammo crates

3) NEW Feature required: allow logi vehicles to load back up the supplies that have been dumped at a FOB. (perhaps SL can hold Q when looking at the radio, like he does for F to unbuild... whatever)

4) A group of INS can take a logi-technical and drop a fob, place their mines and then take out the ammo crate and resupply, pack back up the FOB and move on.

 

Benefits:

1) Logis would no longer be glorified delivery boys, but a crucial element of supplies mobility and allocation/reallocation of resources.

2) Logis will, on this tactic, atrophy resources until eventually a full resupply at main base is needed.

3) Destruction of the logi will render the squad unable to resupply and up a certain creek without a certain paddle.

4) Logis could be required to come and salvage a FOB under attack, quickly packing up what isn't bolted down and retreating.  Tension, strategy etc... improved gameplay.  "We almost have their FOB... digging now.  WAIT  they're trying to run -- Don't let that logi leave!" etc.

5) Added emergent gameplay elements, for example: Supply lines are being harassed at main and roads are heavily mined.  You are losing logis.  You have one near the front line by a fob that desperately needs ammo to defend itself.  You have an unused FOB in the middle of the map, full of ammo and supplies that is no longer useful, but it is a useful safety net so you left it there for the HAB.  Take the logi at the front and repurpose the supplies at the unused FOB.  This has cost/benefit decision making, rather than just "get to main and have free supplies".  It allows the enemy to follow your logi and find another FOB, if they are clever.  Layers... Lots of layers.

 

Possible drawback: 

- "what the hell I just put supplies here who stole all the supplies off my FOB?!?" This could be easily avoided though by requiring an SL to do it.  Furthermore, this kind of 'problem' already exists with vehicle stealing, but somehow we all seem to get along just fine and cooperate.

 

 

 

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zarenx   
55 minutes ago, -MG said:

First of all, A FOB should spawn with no ammo and building materials imo. Makes FOB placement a more critical process.  
Nothing but logic here. Why else have a logi in game ?. *shrugs* For content sake ?. coolness factor ?.

The recent removal of auto points regen' on FOB was the 1st step of making logis more relevant. Now let's make them crucial to keep frontlines functional.

Foxhole is a great game for example that represents that. No logi network ?, no guns, no ammo, no building material, no spawning, no defending captured towns, no FOB, no artillery, no defence. 









   




  

well fobs does not spawn with sufficient building material or ammo so you need to use the logi to be able to build a hab or a repair point. 2nd is that helicopters will probably have the ability to also resupply the fob's with ammo and material(just like PR). maybe we will have ammo crates that will despawn after some use in the future to replace the point system. who knows the game is only in it first stages and far from getting fully released.

 

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PROTOCOL   
On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 11:39 PM, Psyrus said:

Having riflemen with ammo packs would be far more comfortable for me, so they'd at least have to die to respawn with a new one, costing both tickets and a spawn off the rally. Not to mention that they should technically not be carrying rockets in those ammo packs, but that's a different story. 

 

^ To add a bit to this, I've always asked why not give the AR role a purpose (Ammo Bearer). Carrying enough ammo to resupply magazines only for (1) full squad reload, and maybe ((1) AT rocket - make it count). Requiring a resupply a FOB/HAB after depleted. In comparison, regular rifleman can now place a sandbag, medics can heal, scouts can place explosives, etc...  Give the AR role this "supporting" function and remove the cheesy Band-Aid place holder FOB/AMMO CRATE rinse repeat.

 

On ‎8‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 8:48 AM, Tartantyco said:

Ammunition Bags are a piece of player equipment that allows them to carry small amounts of Ammunition to resupply  team members with. Players can either directly apply them to other players, or drop them on the ground for players to resupply from. If depleted, they disappear from the map.

 

Adding @Tartantyco Ammunition Bag function to the AR Role by default would suffice.

 

Edited by PROTOCOL
added Ammunition Bag link

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Kendo   

AR gets a bipod.  I'm pretty sure that's gonna be a complete game changer.

 

I, for one, am more of a fan of "ammo sharing" rather than "ammo creating".  I think you can leave magical ammobags full of ATmines and Rockets and every type of bullet under the sun for Battlefield games.  Much better to have an ability for every solder to donate a mag to a fellow squaddie if they have run out, provided they use the same ammunition.  Otherwise, you'll end up with FOB ammocrates being pretty much useless.  The frequency with which people die and respawn already keeps a basic trickle of ammo coming back into the squad.  Multiplying this effect when the "ammobearer" class respawns so that he can then ALSO resupply another solider, every time, and regardless of whether its a marksman or LAT or Scout, gets a bit "arcade" and "Ammo ex nihilo" again.

Edited by Kendo

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PROTOCOL   

@Kendo You clearly didn't read...

 

1. Bipod is an individual tool

2. I said magazines only.... and  (maybe 1 AT rocket), meaning no explosives

3. FOB ammo crates are useless now, purpose of thread

4. Game logic in code, timers/ Cooldowns, limitation all possible

5. You can watch any war documentary of your choice, certain there will be someone with extra mags in a unit. Not sure how the suggestion is arcade vs. what's in place now.

 

No need to clarify further the DEVS will land where ever they land and people will still play. Rather be a help and not a hindrance.

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1 hour ago, zarenx said:

well fobs does not spawn with sufficient building material or ammo so you need to use the logi to be able to build a hab or a repair point. 2nd is that helicopters will probably have the ability to also resupply the fob's with ammo and material(just like PR). maybe we will have ammo crates that will despawn after some use in the future to replace the point system. who knows the game is only in it first stages and far from getting fully released.

 

 

This, so much this!

 

The issue with with ammo/fob exploit is one thing but the other thing with the disappearing resupplys is killing the authentic effect for me too.

In my opinion the exploit here is that you can resupply a fob through a whole couple of houses / componds or walls.

 

I know thats the current FOB system is different from PR with the ammo crates and if they just add some ammo crates isn't a final solution because that would not work at the current Squad FOB system.

 

My first solution approach without breaking the current FOB system would be somthing between these two systems like a resupply unload spot (maybe with 50 or 100 contructions Points, the cheapest placement) and any Logictruck, chopper or any other resupply vehicle are only able the resupply the FOB at this spot.

This would fix the current disappearing resupplys and resupply through any solid objects too. Bonus would be to find a balanced good spot for the unload spot between  hiddenness & accessibility.

 

Please let me know what do you think about this sugesstion or If someone have somthing other or better in mind, please post your idea :3

 

Cheers!

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Sooo tired of everyone trying to make Squad into PR. PR sucked. For many people it was boring. Yes this will rub fanboys the wrong way, but so be it. Squad is its own game.

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