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"Ammo FOBs" Promote Unhealthy Gameplay

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@protocol... 

 

No need to cause a ruckus from nothing.  I was simply stating my opinion... sorry if it came across as a personal attack on you.

 

1) Individual tool, yes.  Maybe I don't understand what you're saying.  It seems like you're suggesting that an individual tool cannot be used to support the rest of the squad? I don't see how you could possibly mean that though, so I must be going wrong somewhere.  I mean, LAT, grenadier and marksman can, in the right situations, support the squad more than a medic can.  They don't call them fire support roles for nothing.

 

2) Magazines for what, every type of ammo your military uses?  Also, if you're going to go down the route of a spare rocket (or even whole disposable tube?) then you would also reasonably expect explosives in there too, right?  I mean, rockets are still explosives... larger than IEDs too for that matter.

 

3) Purpose of the thread is not that FOB ammo crates are useless, it is in fact the opposite.  They're OP and cause this very odd meta because they are used too much, and somewhat 'cheaply'.  Making this meta a role in the squad is, I suppose, one way to 'fix' it...

 

4) Of course

 

5) I'm not saying the ammo bearer class isn't legit either... I must have been completely incomprehensible above, sorry.  What I'm saying is that he hasn't got a Merry Poppins bag.  RPK gunner carries a bucket load of mags already, and I'm suggesting he should be able to share them.

 

Don't see who's helping or hindering here... I thought we were just having a discussion.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Kendo said:

1) Assume that all fobs are placed with 0 supplies of any kind when created.

2) The use of a logi vehicle then becomes necessary for that squad to create their ammo crates

3) NEW Feature required: allow logi vehicles to load back up the supplies that have been dumped at a FOB. (perhaps SL can hold Q when looking at the radio, like he does for F to unbuild... whatever)

4) A group of INS can take a logi-technical and drop a fob, place their mines and then take out the ammo crate and resupply, pack back up the FOB and move on.

 


Nothing but great ideas imo. that's why i said 0 building and ammo points on placement, then it'll require a logi for it to be usefull.
Thus will force people to be more thoughtfull of their decision making with the supplies and FOB placement and will focus more on strategic benefits then futile stuff like an ammo spawner. 
 

Edited by -MG

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1 hour ago, -MG said:


Thus will force people to be more thoughtfull of their decision making with the supplies and FOB placement and will focus more on strategic benefits then futile stuff like an ammo spawner. 
 

 

Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking.  Moreover, making supply points recoverable from a FOB opens up a whole heap of gameplay scenarios, as well as making it less of a pain if you want to move the FOB, or wish another FOB had your supplies.

 

An ammo spawner class would be pretty grim, imo.  There are so many more subtle and intricate ways of doing that.  The thing that's really got me impressed with offworld is their ability to resist making a game that is a mile wide, but only an inch deep.  

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On 8/15/2017 at 0:08 PM, Gatzby said:

Thanks for the post! We're definitely watching the effects of the changes from 9.6. There will no doubt be further tweaking until it feels right. =)

 

What changes do you folks think could make this more fun? Short of reverting -- we've seen that already. =P Ammo bags, I think, are a good line of thinking there.

 Just a suggestion: give  the ability to drop an extra mag or bandage to a squad mate in need. I'm sure this is something done in real life. The only potential for abuse, that i can think of, would be dropping all of your ammo, then command respawn. You could counter this by only allowing players to drop one mag per life.

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A logi or similar vehicle used as, or requisite for a fob might be an interesting alternative.

'Mobile construction vehicle deployed'...

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2 hours ago, _randombullet said:

Sooo tired of everyone trying to make Squad into PR. PR sucked. For many people it was boring. Yes this will rub fanboys the wrong way, but so be it. Squad is its own game.

PR was great but not flawless, just saying.

btw. if you didnt like PR why did you like Squad both are pretty equal and made by the same developers?

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My guess is somewhere down the line Squad will get supply crates very similar to PR, so that logi trucks drop big crates, smaller vehicles drops small crates, and APCs would drop small ones too.

 

So the FOB/HAB mechanics may change like so: first have a logi truck drop a big supply crate, then SL will be able to place a radio inside a given radius from supply crate (which if such radius being relatively small would potentially also solve the issue of radios being placed in absurd spots in maps as currently happens). Players would be able to resupply in these supply crates, and these would disappear after depleted. Not sure how current FOB(radio)/HAB separation would work out in this case, as in PR they where one and the same, perhaps in Squad they will remain distinct entities, so SLs have the option of creating a HAB or not, depending on which use the FOB will have (just be a resupply spot for the team for example).

 

Besides that, AR kit being able to resupply specific items in very small quantities would be nice too, similar to BF2's ammo bag or something.

 

All that would give logistics its proper importance to the game.

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Posted (edited)

Logistics are already important.
You literally can't do anything without em except drop one supply crate with enough supplies for one LAT via a concerted effort of three people for a period of time at least 400m from another FOB (a situation that's quite rare on pub servers, but I suppose does arise in more organized play).
Removing that "exploit" will do very little because most people don't use it anyway, and those that do are generally wandering in the middle of nowhere (because most contested flags should already have a major FOB nearby, thereby preventing the FOB trick).

Edited by tatzhit

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11 hours ago, _randombullet said:

Sooo tired of everyone trying to make Squad into PR. PR sucked. For many people it was boring. Yes this will rub fanboys the wrong way, but so be it. Squad is its own game.

 

But you can understand why people would feel that way, right?

http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f11-off-topic-discussion/131654-squad-commercial-game-made-developers-inspired-pr-bf2.html

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10 hours ago, Zenrique said:

My guess is somewhere down the line Squad will get supply crates very similar to PR, so that logi trucks drop big crates, smaller vehicles drops small crates, and APCs would drop small ones too.

 

So the FOB/HAB mechanics may change like so: first have a logi truck drop a big supply crate, then SL will be able to place a radio inside a given radius from supply crate (which if such radius being relatively small would potentially also solve the issue of radios being placed in absurd spots in maps as currently happens). Players would be able to resupply in these supply crates, and these would disappear after depleted. Not sure how current FOB(radio)/HAB separation would work out in this case, as in PR they where one and the same, perhaps in Squad they will remain distinct entities, so SLs have the option of creating a HAB or not, depending on which use the FOB will have (just be a resupply spot for the team for example).

 

Besides that, AR kit being able to resupply specific items in very small quantities would be nice too, similar to BF2's ammo bag or something.

 

All that would give logistics its proper importance to the game.

 This sound familiar and would fit into my peronal preferences but im open for a other systems too if they didnt brake the authentic / immersion.

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Posted (edited)

As far as 'ammobags' go, I've already voiced a concern that it seems rather arcadey. Feel free to rip into me if you disagree after reading this.  Thing is, the idea seems to be quite popular, as well as the devs having hinted at it.  So lets discuss.

 

As implemented in battlefield, they initially seem dodgy because what if someone needs more frags, a different member needs more 5.56, another one still needs a rocket, etc.  Does only one person get to 'use' this ammo bag? This means that you get the situation of "hey, can I have some more 5.56 mags mate?" ... " No, sorry, I already gave LAT another rocket".  Like, what?  That would be very jarring, at least for me.

 

What if, instead of a 'Merry Poppins' bag of whatever goodies you need but that is single use, the ammobearer class had a well defined selection of kit?  For example, he may carry, say, 4 extra mags of 5.56, 2 spare frags, 2 spare smokes, a spare LAT tube and a few belts of 5.56 (or 7.62 if/when get the GPMG).  That is enough to keep a firefight going, or help keep the squad combat effective for another engagement, right?

 

But then you realise that, given that the ammo bearer has these things, would he not get to use them too?  Does that mean ammo bearer effectively as an LAT tube, 3 or so frags, like 12 mags of 5.56 etc etc etc.  He's a one man army then.  That's gotta be wrong too.

 

We'll have to see how CoreInventory works, but this is why I think an 'ammo sharing' system is the way to go.  Do some members of your squad desperately need replenished?  Why not do what you would in real life -- gather around and sort out who needs what and divide it up.  Every soldier should be able to donate a magazine, or a bandage, or a frag etc.  Every soldier should be every other mans 'ammo bearer'.  This has got to be the simplest way forward, no?  No 'ammo ex nihilo', just scarcity and sharing to get the job done.  No "don't worry if you run out of something guys, I have whatever you need, just go nuts", but a collective sense of 'OK, we, as a squad, have X resources to use, lets put it all to its best use".

 

Besides, we all know that ammo replen is, for the most part, barely a problem on the scale that would justify ammobags.  Being totally honest here, we have to admit that it's pretty much just for the LAT kits, right?  I mean, bandages do run out, sure, and some people do goose all of their primary ammo, sure, but resupplying right now is 99% of the time just to give the scout another mine or the LAT another rocket to get that pesky armour.  I'm prepared to be completely wrong on this one, but I think its worth questioning, at least, what good a Merry Poppins bag or a walking armoury will do, without assuming off the bat that it would be at all.

 

Edited by Kendo

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Posted (edited)

this is taken from the kickstarter and it is also the reasons why i actually kickstarted this project:

 ""Squad was originally envisioned as a way to carry on the legacy of the popular “Project Reality” mod for battlefield 2. Founded by Will “Merlin” Stahl in early 2014, the project has grown to approx 22 developers the vast majority of who have contributed to the original MOD at some point in its long life.

 

Our goal for Squad is to take 10 years worth of experience, testing and research with the original Project Reality formula and apply it to a modern stand-alone engine. We want nothing less than to reclaim the genre of tactical shooters for the creators, modders and players who have waited a generation to get back to intelligent, satisfying gameplay.""

 

 

Squad is PR and PR will always be the origin of squad. we used years within the community testing diffrent stuff. this type of fob placement was the best option the devs came with and people liked it. 

 

On 17.8.2017 at 4:35 PM, _randombullet said:

Sooo tired of everyone trying to make Squad into PR. PR sucked. For many people it was boring. Yes this will rub fanboys the wrong way, but so be it. Squad is its own game.

offcourse people think it is boring. i promise you that if you play PR for over 7 years you will eventually stop playing for a while

 

Edited by zarenx

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On 8/17/2017 at 0:43 PM, SonofMarsV said:

 Just a suggestion: give  the ability to drop an extra mag or bandage to a squad mate in need. I'm sure this is something done in real life. The only potential for abuse, that i can think of, would be dropping all of your ammo, then command respawn. You could counter this by only allowing players to drop one mag per life.

The counter is the ticket and the crazy long spawn time. If someone's going to suicide for ammo, might as well make the person OUT of ammo suicide and even then that's a pretty hefty spawn time and a waste of a ticket. At least as far as competitive play is concerned tickets matter, I know PUB games seem to hardly care until it's too late lol.

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15 hours ago, Randall172 said:

just die somehow and respawn on a rally, boom fresh ammo

if your whole team does that, you will lose a lot of tickets and therefore probably the match.

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Winning matches already depend on supply trucks too much as it is. You can play pretty much without anything and win but you can't realistically play without supply trucks and HABs and still wait to win the game.

 

I play vehicles a lot and whenever I can trade my 30mm BTR(or any other vehicle in the game) for 2 enemy supply trucks, I do so. Because it doesn't matter what vehicle I just lost(or didn't lose), once I destroy 2 enemy supply trucks, especially at the start of the round, enemy team is already pretty much lost the round because they don't have supply trucks and as a result they can't have HABs. And it doesn't matter if they'll abuse your 'Ammo FOBs' or not. They already lost, because they can't effectively fight against the other team which has 2 supply trucks, 2 FOBs, 2 HABs and more it coming.

 

My point is that if they can somehow make things easy for clever players(who are smart enough to use ammo FOB trick) which can't access supply truck, then it is a good thing. Game should be more skill dependent and less supply truck dependent.

Teams shouldn't lose rounds just because one-two retards got behind the wheel of one or two supply trucks at the start of the round and then lost them 2 minutes later without putting down FOBs and resupplying them.

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1 hour ago, Skul said:

Winning matches already depend on supply trucks too much as it is. You can play pretty much without anything and win but you can't realistically play without supply trucks and HABs and still wait to win the game.

 

I play vehicles a lot and whenever I can trade my 30mm BTR(or any other vehicle in the game) for 2 enemy supply trucks, I do so. Because it doesn't matter what vehicle I just lost(or didn't lose), once I destroy 2 enemy supply trucks, especially at the start of the round, enemy team is already pretty much lost the round because they don't have supply trucks and as a result they can't have HABs. And it doesn't matter if they'll abuse your 'Ammo FOBs' or not. They already lost, because they can't effectively fight against the other team which has 2 supply trucks, 2 FOBs, 2 HABs and more it coming.

 

My point is that if they can somehow make things easy for clever players(who are smart enough to use ammo FOB trick) which can't access supply truck, then it is a good thing. Game should be more skill dependent and less supply truck dependent.

Teams shouldn't lose rounds just because one-two retards got behind the wheel of one or two supply trucks at the start of the round and then lost them 2 minutes later without putting down FOBs and resupplying them.

Nerfing the cookers hasn't added any positive element to the gameplay. Its one of several recent fun killers. I'd wait and see what the eventual finished logistics system is like before I'd render a final judgement though.

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3 hours ago, Skul said:

Game should be more skill dependent and less supply truck dependent.

 

2 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Nerfing the cookers hasn't added any positive element to the gameplay.

I personally like the dynamic of teamplay and asset prioritization that the logistics changes have brought. When airdropped supplies come in the game (which I assume they will, in some form), it will bring even more inter-squad dependency to the forefront of gameplay. I play many games where "individual skill" is the big swing factor, but on a team of (50?), I prefer for the focus to be on teamwork over a single individual or squad making all the difference. 

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On 9/8/2017 at 10:29 AM, Psyrus said:

I play many games where "individual skill" is the big swing factor, but on a team of (50?), I prefer for the focus to be on teamwork over a single individual or squad making all the difference. 

Well, currently if you lose 2 supply trucks at the start of the round, it doesn't matter how MLG you're yourself or how good 'teamplay' in your team is.

If other team is taking 100% advantage of their supply trucks and FOBs, you're done. They're going to teleport the hell out of you using their FOBs all over the map, their armored vehicles are going to exhaust your vehicles using their repair stations, then either destroy your vehicles and spawn rape them or they will just not let your armored vehicles to leave your main(your armored vehicles will have to go to main base to repair every time they get hit, or they'll die).

 

Anyway, that's my experience every single time I play on publics and matches against other teams, when either our logis gets destroyer or we destroy enemy logis at the start of the round.

Edited by Skul

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On 9/8/2017 at 8:23 AM, Zylfrax791 said:

Nerfing the cookers hasn't added any positive element to the gameplay. Its one of several recent fun killers. I'd wait and see what the eventual finished logistics system is like before I'd render a final judgement though.

Who are cookers? Never heard that term before.

Edited by Skul

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11 minutes ago, Skul said:

Who are cookers? 

You mean: What are cookers?

FOBs/radios pre a-9.6

They passively generated ammo and construction points. (referred as cooking)

 

Quote

Alpha v9.6

FOBs no longer passively generate ammo or construction points. Please keep your logistics trucks safe and be sure to give lots of love to the brave drivers! A freshly deployed FOB still starts with 100 ammo points and 200 construction points.


Source: http://joinsquad.com/readArticle?articleId=180

 

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Skul is right that the game is over dependent on fobs and logis as is. Because logis are so slow, fobs need to be so far from each other, a logi can only supply one per trip, and probably more reasons, fobs are very few and logis very vulnerable.

 

Obviously the team with better fobs wins a fight for the flag, and there are so few logis/fobs and some are so easy to kill, directly attacking them.is overly efficient. This renders the game over centralized around FOB and logi destroying. 

 

Hell Ive played games on fools road where it feels im in complete control of the outcome of the game by just camping the us main with a btr for logis, no matter how bad my teammates are.

 

Helicopters in the future will do a massive service to rectify this. Armed logis like.. say a humvee with a .50 cal, 300 supplies in the back and 3 seats would also help. Decreasing the radius between fobs would be nice too.

Edited by 40mmrain

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5 minutes ago, 40mmrain said:

Helicopters in the future will do a massive service to rectify this. Armed logis like.. say a humvee with a .50 cal, 300 supplies in the back and 3 seats would also help. Decreasing the radius between fobs would be nice too.

I'm totally onboard with this kind of stuff! More versatility for the teams so that each game plays out differently :)

 

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