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40mmrain

It's time for the vehicle claim free-for-all to come to an end

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Posted (edited)

Any squad can claim any vehicle and this is having a serious negative impact on the game. Squad thrives on organization, without it the game is a hot mess. Without a squad's ability to control certain vehicles they claim, for the duration of the match, organization goes down by a serious degree and the game suffers.

 

I believe that certain types of vehicles should be able to claimed by a sqyad, before the match even starts, and only the members of that squad can use those vehicles for the entirety of the match. These vehicles would be the BTR, BRDM, Stryker, 30mm MTLB, SPG technical, and maybe some others in select layers. These are highly specialized vehicles that often thrive on operating completely independent from infantry, often together as a group. They also do work integrally with infantry, but this requires special tactics and direction from the squad leader, and having members of the squad that are designated crewmen. These are not the kind of vehicles that randoms squads can just take and use as transport and basic support vehicles without serious considerations on how to optimize their effectiveness.

 

Because these vehicles are optimally used by specialized squads with the vehicles in mind, these squads will get made all the time. Stryker / BTR / SPG squads are very common, and if the assets they intend to use get taken from them by players who aren't going to use them in their optimal way, the whole team suffers. Consider the following scenario: Someone makes a "BTR squad" on Yehorivka as the Russians. The US team makes a Stryker squad. The US Stryker squads gets all their vehicles in the squad, while the BTR squad on the Russian team can only claim 1 before the other 2 are taken. These 3 BTRs then roll around uncoordinated, while the strykers all stay in a group and totally overwhelm each BTR 1 by 1 because they are coordinated. The US team then wins the initial push to storage site and wins the game, all because of disorganization with vehicle claiming. Is that a fun way to lose a round?

 

I want to make it clear that I do not think that light vehicles such as open top humvees and MRAPs, as well as logistics and transports trucks should be changed. These vehicles are different in that they have limited or zero tactical use, and often their optimal use is merely as transport(and building a FOB where you stop) or very temporary fire support, so any old infantry squad can use them nearly to their fullest. Whereas the vehicles that I think should be claimed by squads are much more limited in numbers to a team, and should always be crewed by players whose intention is to use the vehicle for the whole round, not just because its there.

 

Right now there are limited kits (marksman, HAT) that players can claim for the entire match, why not vehicles that are even more specialized and worth a huge volume of tickets?

 

Also, I find that the initial rush for the vehicles at the start of the round is not helpful to organization either. Squads will all make plans based on claiming certain vehicles, and then there's just a roll on who spawns closest and gets there first, and people can be just left with their *** in their hand without the appropriate vehicles to accomplish what they planned to. Some kind of pre-match claim on the initial vehicles would be nice, too.

Edited by 40mmrain

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Well, ideally vehicles shouldn't just spawn on the map. Squads should purchase them, and then spawn them in under their complete control. The current system, including the claiming system, is just extremely disruptive to complex team organization, creates perverse incentives, and repetitive gameplay.

 

Squads and teams should get to decide what vehicles they want to use, not have it decided beforehand by the map layer. This would instantly make a lot of maps much more replayable, and it would solve a lot of issues related to map balancing.

 

The fact that vehicles don't respawn until they're destroyed also results in a lot of cheesy tactics, where you keep enemy vehicles alive to deprive them of their use instead of destroying them. If a team loses both logistics trucks on a map, it just ends up with an extremely boring time for everyone for the rest of the match. Especially considering how easily vehicles can be flipped or stuck at times. Squads should have the ability to despawn abandoned vehicles(With the full ticket penalty) if they end up not being recoverable.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah I'm not a big fan of the current system either. Though Squad locking helps, there really needs to be some UI change that allows for dedication squad. Here's what I've thought about it.

 

You go to create Squad < Drop Down pops up < Options given are "Infantry Squad", "Crewman Squad" (IFV, Tank, etc.), "Pilot Squad", so on and so fourth. < You choose which one you want, and are thus given a specialized kit, for example a Infantry squad gets the same kits as now, whilst if its a Crewman squad, its only a small rifle along with some grenades and bandages and nothing more. Though Im sure there can be some flaws with this idea.

Or just bring in Crewman/Pilot kits and name the squads accordingly. Because as said, at the moment you can just have "Squad 1" be mostly infantry, some guy saying "Hey Squad Lead can we get the BTR-82 IFV at main? I just need the claim approval." So now you have a Infantry squad with a guy who is one-manning a IFV as if its BF4 and a SL who now has to control two entities in his squad. 

 

I know squad isn't supposed to be a PR 2, but there were a lot of things PR nailed that Squad could really use that would greatly improve gameplay. Granted, it's an Alpha. We shall see. 

/2 cents

Edited by Sahara

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Too many words for me to read! 

 

But yes yes it's a bit ****ed up but that's mainly due to shitty players using vehicles as taxis or just getting them blown up fast 

 

vehicle claiming is off in matches but most public games are a bit of a mess 

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I don't believe it can be done. There are far, far too many idiots on the internet. Do you really want the same idiots that take vehicles and abandon them everywhere to now assure that unless the vehicles are destroyed, they're abandoned next to that failed FOB in the corner of the map? How long until OpFor realize that leaving the vehicles abandoned is worth more to them than the ticket loss for your team If they were destroyed?

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Keep in mind an average of 1000 people play Squad every day. Ideas like this would make it 500.

 

By the time you get my age (52) you've learned a thing or two. Especially since I went down to the computer store and bought boxed copies of Half Life, Counterstrike, Quake & Unreal to play on my Gateway 2000 233mhz Pentium box with a 3dfx vidcard the week they came out.

 

That said, the conclusion I've come to is PC gamers are a fickle group of transient players that will always move on to the next greatest thing. Also from what I've seen with the Squad demographic is you have the original PR folks & Clans, then you have the Delta Force & Arma folks like me and then you have the bulk of the rest of the players which are younger and used to playing all the other popular games; CS:GO, COD & Battlefield etc.

 

Bottom line, you make Squad any more restrictive and complicated the popularity will diminish considerably.

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I think having a few preset squad types would be a good idea, instead of turning an inf squad into a armor squad. Within those, there could easily be some flexibility. You could lock it and have a 2 man squad running a single btr, or a 6 man squad running 2. 

 

And, totally agree with being able to claim vehicles in the ready up period instead of all plans going into the trash when the wrong squads take the wrong vehicles. It'd be nice if the squad could see their preclaimed vehicle as well on the map, so we don't have to mill around like idiots trying to get to the right truck. 

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Sounds like you need to do comp matches instead of pubs. As much as it may suck for you, you cant tell others how to play a game they paid for. All this coordinated planning sounds good but youre never going to get that 100% in pub games.

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2 hours ago, _randombullet said:

Sounds like you need to do comp matches instead of pubs. As much as it may suck for you, you cant tell others how to play a game they paid for. All this coordinated planning sounds good but youre never going to get that 100% in pub games.

 

Squad has a clear design philosophy that tells players how to play the game. The vehicle claim system, the limits on kits, the rally points and fobs requiring you to work together. There are countless conscious decisions by the developers of this game to force the player to play as they intend. Do you think it's by coincidence or luck that the players of this game behave extremely differently than games such as Battlefield? It's because of the design of the game. You CAN tell players how to play and Squad is proof of this.

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Posted (edited)

Regardless of what the devs intended, there are many different things you can do, with success, that go completely against the grain. This is not saying playing the game "properly" wont give you the same success. Squad has a structure but its a rough structure. It doesnt mean its mandatory you play a certain way. Organized match play is an entirely different ball game. Everything is highly coordinated and everyone is on the same page 100% You cant expect random people in a random game to do the same. If you can get 3/5 squads coordinating in a public game, consider yourself lucky.

Edited by _randombullet

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This game isn't about handholding, it doesn't matter how good you are if your team as a whole is not working together you should be at a disadvantage

 

its not the game mechanics thats broken its the playerbase 

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52 minutes ago, winterfell said:

This game isn't about handholding, it doesn't matter how good you are if your team as a whole is not working together you should be at a disadvantage

 

its not the game mechanics thats broken its the playerbase 

 

My suggestion would mold the playerbase to be better. In the same way that countless other design decisions force players to coordinate, this would simply be another one that further increases coordination.

 

People like being told what to do. More people are interested in being squad members than leaders. People find this game fun because it has more restrictions than other games, not less. Forcing the players to play a certain way due to design decisions is the essence of Squad. 

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1 hour ago, 40mmrain said:

 

Squad has a clear design philosophy that tells players how to play the game. The vehicle claim system, the limits on kits, the rally points and fobs requiring you to work together. There are countless conscious decisions by the developers of this game to force the player to play as they intend. Do you think it's by coincidence or luck that the players of this game behave extremely differently than games such as Battlefield? It's because of the design of the game. You CAN tell players how to play and Squad is proof of this.

So your observation is that by design that essentially the game itself is self contained and contains everything needed to play it?

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28 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

So your observation is that by design that essentially the game itself is self contained and contains everything needed to play it?

 

My belief is that players act as they do as a result of the game's design, and not for the reason that some kind of special kind of video game player plays squad.

 

The game makes it such that non cooperation makes the game unfun, and that cooperation makes it fun, therefore players either cooperate or stop playing entirely.

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15 minutes ago, 40mmrain said:

 

My belief is that players act as they do as a result of the game's design, and not for the reason that some kind of special kind of video game player plays squad.

 

The game makes it such that non cooperation makes the game unfun, and that cooperation makes it fun, therefore players either cooperate or stop playing entirely.

Interesting. Because I've played in many games... let me rephrase that... many sequential games in a single server where no admin were present for the entire day on multiple days and it typically devolves into the kind of "Wild Wild West" show with mass TK's and people griefing vehicles at main etc. It was to the point where I was worried more about my team mates killing me than the enemy. So from that respect the game didn't guide the players to any kind of gameplay except for just kind of a anarchy system where anything goes.

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6 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Interesting. Because I've played in many games... let me rephrase that... many sequential games in a single server where no admin were present for the entire day on multiple days and it typically devolves into the kind of "Wild Wild West" show with mass TK's and people griefing vehicles at main etc. It was to the point where I was worried more about my team mates killing me than the enemy. So from that respect the game didn't guide the players to any kind of gameplay except for just kind of a anarchy system where anything goes.

 

Well theres a simple explanation for that. There are rules that admins were not there to enforce.

 

There are two sets of rules in the game. One is the games rules itself. This is every element of the game: how many spawns a rally has, how many tickets a flag costs, how many bullets it takes to kill someone. These are all "rules of squad" that are enforced by the code of the game. There are also rules of the game admins enforce: no teamkilling on purpose, etc. 

 

We are in perfect agreement you see? It is my belief that players will behave like idiots without rules. It is your observation that this is the case, and when admins are there to enforce rules they do behave. My suggestion is for more rules. 

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1 hour ago, 40mmrain said:

 

Well theres a simple explanation for that. There are rules that admins were not there to enforce.

 

There are two sets of rules in the game. One is the games rules itself. This is every element of the game: how many spawns a rally has, how many tickets a flag costs, how many bullets it takes to kill someone. These are all "rules of squad" that are enforced by the code of the game. There are also rules of the game admins enforce: no teamkilling on purpose, etc. 

 

We are in perfect agreement you see? It is my belief that players will behave like idiots without rules. It is your observation that this is the case, and when admins are there to enforce rules they do behave. My suggestion is for more rules. 

Perfect agreement? Not really. More like a partial agreement. As you pointed out there already are rules in Squad determined by the code in the game. For example the game itself will auto kick you after 7 teamkills, correct me if I'm wrong. That said, I just don't believe in more rules but rules and options build into that same code you acknowledged exists for a reason. Like teamkilling and friendly vehicle destruction, you should be able to toggle that.

 

So going back to your original point from your perspective who is going to determine who gets to claim a vehicle, the game rules or server rules? And if its server rules how is that going to work out any different than ranking, stats and cred when everyone and his brother on the dev team has said no way never to those things because of the potential for favoritism?

 

This stuff of course is really complicated however its a simple fact that the number one complaints I hear from other players is team killing and not enough vehicles. A major problem I'm seeing lately too is players destroying friendly vehicles at the main base right where they sit (most likely frustrated noobs) which by itself is problematic however what happens next is the new replacement vehicle respawn and because the husk is still there they typically go airborne, sometimes flying a considerable distance but always catching on fire. This goes on and on until the game is over and of course there isn't a single thing any server admin could do in this case.

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5 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

A major problem I'm seeing lately too is players destroying friendly vehicles at the main base right where they sit (most likely frustrated noobs) which by itself is problematic however what happens next is the new replacement vehicle respawn and because the husk is still there they typically go airborne, sometimes flying a considerable distance but always catching on fire. This goes on and on until the game is over and of course there isn't a single thing any server admin could do in this case.

 

Another reason why vehicles shouldn't spawn in on their own, but should be spawned in by the squads that request them.

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2 hours ago, Tartantyco said:

 

Another reason why vehicles shouldn't spawn in on their own, but should be spawned in by the squads that request them.

I like the idea, but only if there is a commander slot. Sure, there will be commanders that will make sure their buddy gets the 30mm, but it'll be the commanders job to make sure that the squad leader requesting to spawn a vehicle be trustworthy enough to use that vehicle. 

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2 hours ago, franklawl said:

I like the idea, but only if there is a commander slot. Sure, there will be commanders that will make sure their buddy gets the 30mm, but it'll be the commanders job to make sure that the squad leader requesting to spawn a vehicle be trustworthy enough to use that vehicle. 

 

Having a Commander in charge of this would be awful for many reasons, one of which you highlighted.

 

You just need a system that dissuades asset wasters and rewards asset survival.

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IDK if you have kept up with development, but i believe they eventually plan to have roles such as vehicle crewman, helicopter crew, Jet Pilot. Only people with these kits can drive their respective vehicles types. Squad role kits i think will accomplish what you have a problem with because the kits will be highly specialized. A Jet pilot is going to come with an absolute minimum amount of personal equipment, perhaps a just a pistol and bandages. With such a limited kit, nobody will ever want to use it for anything other than flying jets or whatever role he is supposed to fill. Your equipment defines your role in a squad more than anything else.

 

Doesn't make sense to do it now since the max player count is only 80 and doesn't leave much room for a support squads other than Logis. Not to mention the other two roles of Pilot and helicopter crewman wouldn't even exist yet because there are none so this the system we have to work with until we have those vehicles. However i do agree with the OP in that small/light vehicles such as Humvees and Transports should be able to be driven by anyone and everyone with approval of course.

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2 hours ago, ♠DEG♠ said:

2 words to add...

Crewman Kit 

That is all

 

Yeah really. I'm a little disappointed they haven't implemented this yet. At least for the APCs. 

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, IronComatose said:

 

Yeah really. I'm a little disappointed they haven't implemented this yet. At least for the APCs. 

I'm pretty sure they said in the past that the crewman kit will be implemented once they get tanks in. Right now theirs really no need for it yet. ;)

Edited by WarEagle751

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