Randall172

AK74 vs M4/16 Recoil

I am pretty sure the AK74 has less recoil than say an M4 or M16, but it does not feel that way in-game

 

Free recoil energy (recoil that is not directly backwards) -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_recoil

-AKM 7.19J -> for comparison

-M16 6.44J

-AK74 3.4J

___________

Bullet energy

7.62x39   2108 J

5.56x45(62gr) 1762 J

5.45x39   1328 J

___________________________

 

 

i've fired both and in honesty with a heavier AK74 you barely notice recoil at all.

Edited by Randall172

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1 hour ago, Randall172 said:

I am pretty sure the AK74 has less recoil than say an M4 or M16, but it does not feel that way in-game

 

Free recoil energy (recoil that is not directly backwards)

-AKM 7.19J -> for comparison

-M16 6.44J

-AK74 3.4J

___________

Bullet energy

7.62x39   2108 J

5.56x45(62gr) 1762 J

5.45x39   1328 J

___________________________

 

Not to be "that guy" but, I've fired both and I can tell you with all honesty both the AK74 and M4 are represented pretty accurately ingame.

Edited by Wonka

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they both are very close, but the M16 is a little better in rapid fire control simply because of the ergonomics.......if you look at some videos you can see soldiers gripping the AK74 at the magazine which is crappy for rapid fire control.

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The only reason the AK feels like crap in Squad is not recoil, damage, rate of fire, or any stat like that. It's that its iron sights are so far from the user's face that they're very hard to shoot accurately with. The animation system overhaul promised for Alpha 10 will be changing the player camera a lot, I hope this is one of the things that get addressed.

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It's the gun construction, thing relating more to how gun is operating instead of how strong the bullet is. 

 

From my small live shooting experience, M4 is a bit better than AK74 in terms of fire control. M4 seems to 'kick' more in a straight line towards your arm and AK74 seems to move a bit more up. But you know, it's just "my feeling". You can get nice grip for both so it's not an issue, but if I can be honest - AK is missing the Red Dot in game, aiming with its oryginal iron sights is a nightmare, not to mention fire selector... Also reloading is in my opinion a bit more 'natural' and faster in M4s.

 

 

For in-game AK, adding Red Dot sights is a must and I think it would be a nice fix.

 

 

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9 hours ago, 40mmrain said:

The only reason the AK feels like crap in Squad is not recoil, damage, rate of fire, or any stat like that. It's that its iron sights are so far from the user's face that they're very hard to shoot accurately with. The animation system overhaul promised for Alpha 10 will be changing the player camera a lot, I hope this is one of the things that get addressed.

 

I hope so too. I've found the same thing with the AKs - the sights being so far away feels very weird and makes shooting (especially at any sort of distance) quite difficult. It applies to all sights in the game, it's just not as much of a problem with the M16's red dot.

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Where did you get those numbers?
It's very difficult to accurately convey gun handling in a game anyway.

556 and 545 are very similar in recoil with regard to the cartridge. Ergonomics and operating mechanism (design) are probably the most significant factor.

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6 minutes ago, Nimbus said:

Where did you get those numbers?
It's very difficult to accurately convey gun handling in a game anyway.

556 and 545 are very similar in recoil with regard to the cartridge. Ergonomics and operating mechanism (design) are probably the most significant factor.

 

^^^ This. 

 

Just like I've wrote - guns are similar, but in Squad M4 have red dot sight, I think AK should get this also. Although not very realistic as from what we can see russian soldier is not using optics (there are of course exceptions) it's directly affecting gameplay. 

 

Closer to eye view of mechanical sights would be also a nice move (and I think it would be not as that hard to implement.

 

 

 

Regards

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In my experience, AK74 kicks significantly less than than M4. However, as mentioned here, game balance is probably more relevant than personal experiences, which vary.

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On 17/07/2017 at 3:52 AM, 40mmrain said:

The only reason the AK feels like crap in Squad is not recoil, damage, rate of fire, or any stat like that. It's that its iron sights are so far from the user's face that they're very hard to shoot accurately with. The animation system overhaul promised for Alpha 10 will be changing the player camera a lot, I hope this is one of the things that get addressed.

 

It's a catch 22 situation where having the sights be a realistic distance from the character ingame becomes unrealistic because the player isn't actually in the game, but viewing from behind a small screen. So you have to make the sights unrealistically close in order to have them look realistic to the player.

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On 7/17/2017 at 4:04 AM, PadrePadre said:

It's the gun construction, thing relating more to how gun is operating instead of how strong the bullet is. 

 

From my small live shooting experience, M4 is a bit better than AK74 in terms of fire control. M4 seems to 'kick' more in a straight line towards your arm and AK74 seems to move a bit more up. But you know, it's just "my feeling". You can get nice grip for both so it's not an issue, but if I can be honest - AK is missing the Red Dot in game, aiming with its oryginal iron sights is a nightmare, not to mention fire selector... Also reloading is in my opinion a bit more 'natural' and faster in M4s.

 

 

For in-game AK, adding Red Dot sights is a must and I think it would be a nice fix.

 

 

I like the idea but it's not representing what the Russian Army actually uses. The standard infantryman doesn't have any red dot on the AK-74's, just iron sights. Special forces have red dots and scopes on their rifles however.

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8 hours ago, b3n556 said:

I like the idea but it's not representing what the Russian Army actually uses. The standard infantryman doesn't have any red dot on the AK-74's, just iron sights. Special forces have red dots and scopes on their rifles however.

 

Yea, it bothers me also. From one side, it would be fair to get them on both weapons, on other side it would be unrealistic ... I think it would be best to change the zoom level of a gun when aiming down the iron sights.

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On 7/17/2017 at 1:04 PM, PadrePadre said:

It's the gun construction, thing relating more to how gun is operating instead of how strong the bullet is. 

 

From my small live shooting experience, M4 is a bit better than AK74 in terms of fire control. M4 seems to 'kick' more in a straight line towards your arm and AK74 seems to move a bit more up. But you know, it's just "my feeling". You can get nice grip for both so it's not an issue, but if I can be honest - AK is missing the Red Dot in game, aiming with its oryginal iron sights is a nightmare, not to mention fire selector... Also reloading is in my opinion a bit more 'natural' and faster in M4s.

 

 

For in-game AK, adding Red Dot sights is a must and I think it would be a nice fix.

 

 

 

It's not just your experiences. There's a very good scientific explanation. The M4 uses an in-line design which means that the stock is in line with the bore-axis. That means that the recoil forces are directed straight back into the shooter's shoulder. The AK74 has a stock that seats below the bore-axis which means the rifle will want to tip upwards when fired.

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40 minutes ago, Kern said:

 

It's not just your experiences. There's a very good scientific explanation. The M4 uses an in-line design which means that the stock is in line with the bore-axis. That means that the recoil forces are directed straight back into the shooter's shoulder. The AK74 has a stock that seats below the bore-axis which means the rifle will want to tip upwards when fired.

 

That's theory. In practice, AK74s less powerful round means less recoil overall, and I find it to be more controllable personally. As I said above, YMMV.

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1 hour ago, Kern said:

 

It's not just your experiences. There's a very good scientific explanation. The M4 uses an in-line design which means that the stock is in line with the bore-axis. That means that the recoil forces are directed straight back into the shooter's shoulder. The AK74 has a stock that seats below the bore-axis which means the rifle will want to tip upwards when fired.

 

Thats exactly what free recoil is, and the AK74 is better at directing the recoil force back into the shoulder. ill post sources in the first post.

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On 7/20/2017 at 11:53 PM, tatzhit said:

 

That's theory. In practice, AK74s less powerful round means less recoil overall, and I find it to be more controllable personally. As I said above, YMMV.

 

This chart here shows that the difference in recoil forces between the 5.56x45mm and the 5.45x39mm are negligible at best:

 

Recoil-Energy.png

 

On 7/21/2017 at 0:53 AM, Randall172 said:

 

Thats exactly what free recoil is, and the AK74 is better at directing the recoil force back into the shoulder. ill post sources in the first post.

 

An in-line stock, like the one on the M16 and M4, is inherently better for automatic fire control than a stock design like on the AK74. The recoil forces are transmitted directly into the shooter's shoulder along the axis of the bore rather than below which reduces the weapon's tendancy to rise. You may 'feel' more of a kick from an M16 but it will be more easy to control.

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^ Yep.  Absolutely correct.  It is indeed one of the reasons the AR is so easy to shoot and control.  I have a couple ARs in 5.56 and a couple AKs, neither in 5.45 but I have shot some 74 variants.  They are both pretty comparable with a small noticeable difference.  Either way, Squad is a game and they can only match real life stuff so much.  Eventually we're just going to have to be happy with what they give us.

 

I am definitely excited about V10 and the changes it brings.  I like AK style iron sights personally, but I do think that in game the FOV or something needs some tweaking.  The rear sight seems a bit too far away as it is now.  When I look down my AK the rear sight is much closer to my eye.  That does depend on what rifle I'm shooting as I have different stocks on both of my AKs.  I generally shoot my AKMS the most which is an under folder.

Edited by Converge

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