kirusha_love

FOB ammo abuse

47 posts in this topic
10 minutes ago, Smee said:

Isn't it more that a full ammo box  loads only has room for 1 HAT round  , infantry supply shouldn't need massive amounts of logistic.

 

This isn't about "massive" or "minor" amounts of logistical support, it's about literally no logistical support.

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How about allowing vehicles to drop off ammo crates like in PR? It worked perfectly there and I imagine it would here. You drive to your objective, you unload your squad and drop off an ammo crate that can be used 5 or whatever amount of times before disappearing- and has limited resupplies for certain kits; for example, 1 HAT resupply, 1 LAT resupply, 1 grenadier resupply, 1 Scout resupply, 2 rifleman resupply (grenade spam), ect, and the rest of the kits can resupply as many times as they need to if there is still enough resupplies left on the ammo box. Possibly add a 100m radius for ammo drops so you can't easily stay in one spot with multiple ammo, making it more difficult to spam them in one spot and LAT spam ect.

 

You can even see ammo crates in the back of humvees, MRAPs, ect. already.

Edited by Catindabox

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Yeah, allowing jeeps and other vehicles to drop a bit of supply (~300 build/ammo) is a great idea.
Not sure it would do anything about the "problem" Tarantyco keeps complaining about, since presumably any wandering unit would have a jeep with them, and hence would be able to resupply LATs just the same.

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Ammo boxes should have their own pool of supplies.

They could still take those points away from resupplying/kit switching, but it wouldn't decrease the ammo points of FOB's anymore. 

 

You could see its available supplies by looking at it. When all of the ammo is gone, only the pallet will stay on the ground.

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I think the trade off of infantry being able to quickly and simply replenish ammo and health contrasted with the nerfing of the cooker FOB's passively accumulating ammo and build points is a natural and logical progression towards the realism factor of Squad.

 

People that understood the game and knew wtf they were doing would quickly drive around laying down strategic cookers only to come back much later in the game with insane amounts of manna which created exponential superiority. I'm going to miss that function but I see how it fits into the realism pardigm.

 

So yeah when you look at it in this context the Devs know what they're doing.

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3 hours ago, tatzhit said:

Yeah, allowing jeeps and other vehicles to drop a bit of supply (~300 build/ammo) is a great idea.
Not sure it would do anything about the "problem" Tarantyco keeps complaining about, since presumably any wandering unit would have a jeep with them, and hence would be able to resupply LATs just the same.

 

But that wouldn't be a problem, provided that those vehicles would also have to resupply. You do understand that the problem is resources that appear out of thin air, right? Not that anyone could be resupplied in the backfield.

 

We will see vehicles with ammo carrying capacity in future updates. We will see Rifleman ammo bags in future updates. We will see droppable ammo crates in future updates. None of this is an issue. The issue is that I could walk my squad all the way over to the edge of the map with neither friendly or enemy around, just drop a FOB and have enough supplies on it to resupply 1-2 squad members. And I could do it an infinite amount of times.

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12 hours ago, Tartantyco said:

You get resources for nothing. It materializes out of thin air. Everyone should be able to just agree that this shouldn't be a thing. Regardless of whether it's being abused or not.

 

kinda reminds of the current rally mechanics ¬¬

 

I guess if someone dies it does cost tickets at least though

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8 minutes ago, Tartantyco said:

 

But that wouldn't be a problem, provided that those vehicles would also have to resupply. You do understand that the problem is resources that appear out of thin air, right? Not that anyone could be resupplied in the backfield.

 

We will see vehicles with ammo carrying capacity in future updates. We will see Rifleman ammo bags in future updates. We will see droppable ammo crates in future updates. None of this is an issue. The issue is that I could walk my squad all the way over to the edge of the map with neither friendly or enemy around, just drop a FOB and have enough supplies on it to resupply 1-2 squad members. And I could do it an infinite amount of times.

 

What's the difference tho? You won't need to resupply an infinite amount of times. You said yourself you only needed 1-2 LAT resupplies.
From a practical standpoint, supplying from a rifleman ammo bag or the back of a jeep would be MORE abusable because it wouldn't require 3 people and a bunch of digging/undigging, and would also presumably provide more supply than the current one-shot ammo crates. I suppose there's a realism argument, but I don't think any of this makes any difference from gameplay perspective.

PS. Well, jeeps dropping a small amount of FOB supplies (200-300) would be good. I actually like that one.

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4 minutes ago, 40mmrain said:

 

kinda reminds of the current rally mechanics ¬¬

 

I guess if someone dies it does cost tickets at least though

 

It does cost tickets, yes. However, the Rally Point system is also something that needs to be nerfed and, from the last thing I heard, it will be nerfed. I've provided one suggestion in my logistics system thread, but one of the possible implementations suggested by the devs was Project Reality RPs. Timed RP(1:30, I think in PR), 10 minute cooldown, but you can get an instant RP resupply on a FOB(Probably ammo crate in Squad).

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2 minutes ago, tatzhit said:

 

What's the difference tho? You won't need to resupply an infinite amount of times. You said yourself you only needed 1-2 LAT resupplies.
From a practical standpoint, supplying from a rifleman ammo bag or the back of a jeep would be MORE abusable because it wouldn't require 3 people and a bunch of digging/undigging, and would also presumably provide more supply than the current one-shot ammo crates. I suppose there's a realism argument, but I don't think any of this makes any difference from gameplay perspective.

PS. Well, jeeps dropping a small amount of FOB supplies (200-300) would be good. I actually like that one.

 

No, it wouldn't be more abusable because you're actually physically transporting the supplies to the location where they're being consumed. That is the entire point of this discussion, tatzhit. It means the enemy can intercept and destroy the supplies. Right now, in 9.6, I can get my squad behind enemy lines, drop a rally, and keep my squad fully supplied without any vehicle having to drive through enemy lines, or without any poor Rifleman having to walk the distance with an ammo bag. That's not good for gameplay.

 

Physical supply lines provide a team with secondary and tertiary objectives to take out in order to cripple the enemy team. It was somewhat effective pre-9.6, but now taking out enemy logistics can be a devastating blow. Targeting logistical vehicles and camping supply lines is a viable strategy, and consequently having to defend those trucks and supply lines becomes a necessity. Recon becomes vital to ensure that a BTR or Stryker doesn't just sneak past your lines and take out all your logistics. Layers upon layers of depth of gameplay are added to the game. Just look at how FOB construction and vehicle field repairs have changed so far in 9.6. To get a HAB up on an advance objective, you need to get the logistics truck up there first, and that is a vulnerable and limited asset that the enemy can target and take down. This impacts how, when, and where HABs are placed.

 

I just hope that they implement spawning on HABs consuming resources so that you have to keep a FOB supplied to keep it operational, just like it is currently with ammunition and repairs.

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1 hour ago, Tartantyco said:

I just hope that they implement spawning on HABs consuming resources so that you have to keep a FOB supplied to keep it operational, just like it is currently with ammunition and repairs.

 

Yes you're right, also I haven't played 9.6 yet but if you just dig up an FOB do you get the resources back or are they spent for good?

 

See guys, the point is, Squad is supposed to also have an operational and something of a strategic layer of gameplay to it. It's why we even have logistics vehicles available; this establishes physical supply lines that will have to be mantained by the team, and which the enemy can potentially exploit and ambush. But all of that doesn't matter much if it's so easy to exploit the system and keep squads magically supplied, because it elimiantes the actual need for logistics. Likewise, the Rally Point system also overpowered and I do think a system similar to PR's would work just fine. Rally points are *supposed* to be a way for late joiners to spawn together with their squad and/or to bring back 2-3 members who died because of a mine or something. Right now, it's a way to pretty much circumvent the necessity of HABs whenever applicable.

Edited by FelipeFritschF

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like the idea of keeping a hab operational in some way... that certainly would put emphasis on supply routes and perhaps slow spawn abuse down? ... overall I think the changes in 9.6 are good .. but would take away the fob start points altogether ... I don't like the soldiers ability to erect sandbags anywhere... not that it really affects game play but would have preferred digging ditches or rubble build up ... sandbags should only be available at the fob...  it does setup a dynamic that people may think there is a fob around with loads of sandbags built... still not sure about one man to claim a vehicle but it is funny watching a squad member spawning on main and asking for approval only to be told no.. which I agree with, just cos they want to drive a Humvee.. just think it means there is more vehicle spam and destroy.  What it does do however is create a lot more 2 man squads to screw about with vehicles... so this is not for the better of the game.

 

no way should each player get an ammo box... that's what supply pts are for.. perhaps there could be supply pts taken from the fob and used on rallies so an ammo box could be placed?

Edited by embecmom

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i'd like vehicles to have some ammo, particularly the heavy ones but also the soft ones for insurgents and militia

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3 hours ago, suds said:

i'd like vehicles to have some ammo, particularly the heavy ones but also the soft ones for insurgents and militia

 

Already confirmed. IIRC, vehicles will have construction/ammunition capacity depending on the vehicle type, and may also have a modular system where you can sacrifice player carrying capacity for resource carrying capacity in some instances. Players will interact with the vehicle to resupply, or the vehicle can drop the supplies. And of course the infantry will get ammo bags, as well.

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17 minutes ago, Tartantyco said:

 

Already confirmed. IIRC, vehicles will have construction/ammunition capacity depending on the vehicle type, and may also have a modular system where you can sacrifice player carrying capacity for resource carrying capacity in some instances. Players will interact with the vehicle to resupply, or the vehicle can drop the supplies. And of course the infantry will get ammo bags, as well.

All that is planned, yes.

 

Also, the current ammo box "meta" should be replaced in the future with RIfleman carried ammo bags and vehicle required radio placements.

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21 minutes ago, SgtRoss said:

All that is planned, yes.

 

Also, the current ammo box "meta" should be replaced in the future with RIfleman carried ammo bags and vehicle required radio placements.

Can you elaborate on that at all?

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On 7/14/2017 at 7:06 PM, FelipeFritschF said:

 

Yes you're right, also I haven't played 9.6 yet but if you just dig up an FOB do you get the resources back or are they spent for good?

 

See guys, the point is, Squad is supposed to also have an operational and something of a strategic layer of gameplay to it. It's why we even have logistics vehicles available; this establishes physical supply lines that will have to be mantained by the team, and which the enemy can potentially exploit and ambush. But all of that doesn't matter much if it's so easy to exploit the system and keep squads magically supplied, because it elimiantes the actual need for logistics. Likewise, the Rally Point system also overpowered and I do think a system similar to PR's would work just fine. Rally points are *supposed* to be a way for late joiners to spawn together with their squad and/or to bring back 2-3 members who died because of a mine or something. Right now, it's a way to pretty much circumvent the necessity of HABs whenever applicable.

 

Let me quote the reply I made in 9.6 thread. It also applies to restricting the Rally Point system, which would result in people having to play Walking Simulator from the nearest HAB to get anywhere near the action:

"... now it seems that the people are complaining that it should be much harder to get resupplied compared to ALL previous versions of Squad, which is an entirely different argument. When it comes to that, I think it's not a bad idea IF done correctly - that is, done in a way that doesn't detract from the game experience.

Unfortunately, I believe doing it correctly would be problematic. Even now, oftentimes no one wants to play "Afghanistan Truck Simulator" on pub servers.
The "respawn trick" is part of the same problem - it's not a loophole that needs to be closed, it's a symptom that indicates the resupply system isn't working properly and people have to respawn in order to get resupplied. If resupply system gets "fixed" by further restricting resupply, those who don't cherish playing Walking Simulator for 10 minutes in order to get another HAT rocket will just leave the game, and Squad would go the way of other ARMA-likes that accurately and realistically captured the boredom of modern warfare.
 

"

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16 hours ago, SgtRoss said:

All that is planned, yes.

 

Also, the current ammo box "meta" should be replaced in the future with RIfleman carried ammo bags and vehicle required radio placements.

 

Interesting... seeing that standard riflemen now get sandbags, would it be reasonable  to assign AR Role as the Ammo bearers? Carry one full resupply for squad (less explosives/rockets), magazines & medic bandages only.

Edited by PROTOCOL

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At first I didn't like the ammo box in 9.6 because of the ammunition points it took on refill effectively eliminating the unlimited ammo. However after playing these last few days I notice a lot of players including myself volunteering to do Logi runs and just generally better usage of the logistical trucks is finally taking place. I don't think there's abuse since it would be faster and easier to get a resupply to the FOB with a logi versus dig/rearm/undig repeatedly. Not to mention the man power it takes away from the objective. 

 

I haven't seen any abuse happening as of yet. 

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@CptDirty I concur. Tonight i saw over 4 games with designated logi squads. Which did nothing but dropped points for the entirety of the games. Much better all around for the game. And the insurgents even tried hanging around our main one game just to kill the logis. We had to have a whole squad spawn back at main just to kill them so they would stop blowing up our logis. Much more balanced.

Edited by madcat768

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29 minutes ago, madcat768 said:

@CptDirty I concur. Tonight i saw over 4 games with designated logi squads. Which did nothing but dropped points for the entirety of the games. Much better all around for the game. And the insurgents even tried hanging around our main one game just to kill the logis. We had to have a whole squad spawn back at main just to kill them so they would stop blowing up our logis. Much more balanced.

Haha nice, what server was that? 

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