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Hello, comrades ! :)

I know, that R-DEVs have too many works and I am sure, that R-DEVs have plans about AP-rifleman class (like a PR class).

In this topic, I suggest to discuss realisation AP-rifleman kit for both conventional and unconventional factions and write my vision of AP-mines in SQUAD .

 

Firstly, I note, there is Ottawa Treaty ("anti-AP-mines") , but many counties in "Ottawa" save AP-mine storage, moreover, some big countries don`t join to "Ottawa" (RF, USA, China, India, Pakistan, Iran, Egypt, Lybia, Syria...) Also it is important , that AP-mine is very simple construction and using, so the renewal of production can be fast, if it is necessary for armed conflict.

Spoiler

Try to told lieutenant in defense on 1 km front with incomplete company: "You shouldn`t use AP-mine, it is "Ottawa"-restricted!.." ,

then lieutenant ask you: "Go to hell with you "Ottawa"! I have defence order and, for me, life of my soldier is higher than life of enemies! I will use AP-mines!"

 


There are three common types of AP-mine:

1) "press activation" , step foot directly on mine for blow up,  hit only one person, very lightweight (<0,5 kg).

2) "tripwire" , touch wire near mine for blow up (basically, "tripwire-mines are bouncing-mine) , can hit several persons around, heavyweight (~2-5 kg).

3) "guided" , remote-operated by watcher which command blow up from cover (also can be "tripwire"), can hit sevearal persons in sector , enough lightweight (~1,5-2 kg).

 

I) Unconventional factions (Militia, Taliban and for future Iraq, Syria, Africa, Gaza, Lebanon insurgents).

AP-rifleman is a squad-limited kit (like a G3 kit / AKS-74 with optics / LAT kit ... ) , becouse AP-mine is essential part of ambushs - common tactics of unconventional faction.

 

- "Press" mines:

PMN-1 (weight=0,55 kg, minimum 3 min for "save-to-armed" mode after planting),

PMN-2 (weight=0,4 kg, minimum 0,5 min for "save-to-armed" mode after planting) ,

it is VERY simple and wedespread mines, exported and copies produced in many coutries.

- "Tripwire" mines:

POMZ-2 (weight=2,3 kg, radius of guaranteed lethal~7 m, wire lenght=max 4 m, minimum 3 min for "save-to-armed" mode after planting) ,

POMZ-2M (weight=1,77 kg, radius of guaranteed lethal~6 m, wire lenght=max 4 m, minimum 3 min for "save-to-armed" mode after planting) - it is VERY simple and wedespread mine, copies (especially Yugoslavian) produced in many coutries ,

OZM-3 (bouncing, weight=3 kg, radius of guaranteed lethal~10 m, wire lenght=max 5 m, minimum 3 min for "save-to-armed" mode after planting) ,

OZM-4 (bouncing, weight=3 kg, radius of guaranteed lethal~14 m, wire lenght=max 10 m, minimum 3 min for "save-to-armed" mode after planting) .

... there are similar copies of OZM-3,4 AP-mines.

- "Guided" mines:

MON-50 (weight=2 kg, radius of guaranteed lethal~30 m, frag-sector=54 deg, minimum 50 sec for "save-to-armed" mode after planting). Note: can be "tripware" - wire lenght=40-65 m.

 

II) Conventional factions

AP-rifleman is a team-limited kit (like a HAT kit ... ) , 2 kits per full team , becouse ambushs is a not common tactics of conv. factions in SQUAD, mainly AP-mine should use for defence key-positions .

 

a) RF

- "Press" mines:

PMN-3 (weight=0,6 kg, minimum 7 min for "save-to-armed" mode after planting, self-destruction after min 12 hours) , very rarely mine , because has simple electronics inside ,

PMN-4 (weight=0,3 kg, minimum 1 min for "save-to-armed" mode after planting) .

- "Tripwire" mines:

OZM-72 (bouncing, weight=5 kg, radius of guaranteed lethal=minimum 25 m, wire lenght=max 30 m, minimum 3 min for "save-to-armed" mode after planting) .

- "Guided" mines:

MON-50 (weight=2 kg, radius of guaranteed lethal~30 m, frag-sector=54 deg, minimum 50 sec for "save-to-armed" mode after planting). Note: can be "tripware".

 

b) USA (for other future NATO-factions can be use US or self-produced mines)

- "Press" mines:

M14 (weight=0,1 kg, without timing "save-to-armed" mode after planting) , widespread mine, many copies and produced in many countries.

- "Tripwire" mines:

M16/M16A1/M16A2 (bouncing, weight=3,74 kg (A2=2,84 kg), radius of guaranteed lethal~20 m, wire lenght=max 10 m (in one side), without timing "save-to-armed" mode after planting ), also has "press" activation.

- "Guided" mines:

M18A1 "Claymore" (weight=1,59 kg, radius of guaranteed lethal~30 m, frag-sector~60 deg, without timing "save-to-armed" mode after planting). Note: can be "tripware".

"Tripware" method for "Guided" mines (MOH-50/M18A1):

Spoiler

m18-08.jpg

 


It is necessary to discuss:

- How much AP-mines and types of AP-mines can carry AP-riflemans (unconv./conv.) ?

- How much the number of active AP-mines per one AP-rifleman? 5? 10? Various for different type?

- Maybe be able to mix different types of AP-mines for one kit ?

- Maybe std/alt AP-kits (like PR) for AP-riflemans with different types of mine?


III) AT-mines for conventional factions

Combat engineer (sapper) is a team-limited kit (like a HAT kit ... ) , 2 kits per full team , becouse ambushs is a not common tactics of conv. factions in SQUAD, mainly AT-mine should use for defence key-routes.

RF : TM-62,

US : M15 or M19,

GB : Mk.7,

GE : DM21.

Only 1 mine would be to carry by sapper, becouse AT-mine is heavyweight (9-13 kg) , after planting AT-mine sapper need ammo-crate for reloading.

Also sapper should to carry some (~5 items) lightweight (~200 g) distance explosives for blow up enemy (or friendly, if it is necessary) AP-mines or AT-mines.

 

P.S. All names of mines in this post is canonical, so you can to find them in Wikipedia, for example.

But I was guided by russian-language sapper-database, which contents many descriptions of many mines - http://saper.isnet.ru/index-mines.html

Edited by XAHTEP39

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The number of times I used something like a claymore in PR has been about 0. I think that's partially due to the kit being something you need to request.

I'm all for the idea of operator detonated explosives for anti personnel but not the fictional laser claymores.

If victim operated antipersonnel mines exist it would be best for them to be on the redfor side, making it another tool for the asymmetrical equipment aspect.

 

It would also be preferable that they would not be tripped by teammates. This works just fine in Rising Storm Vietnam and removal of spotted ones in Squad could be as simple as using the shovel.

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7 hours ago, Rybec said:

The number of times I used something like a claymore in PR has been about 0. I think that's partially due to the kit being something you need to request.

I'm all for the idea of operator detonated explosives for anti personnel but not the fictional laser claymores.

If victim operated antipersonnel mines exist it would be best for them to be on the redfor side, making it another tool for the asymmetrical equipment aspect.

 

It would also be preferable that they would not be tripped by teammates. This works just fine in Rising Storm Vietnam and removal of spotted ones in Squad could be as simple as using the shovel.

 

Remember that in PR we had grenade tripwire traps and pressure activated waterjug IEDs that the insurgents could use fairly effectively.

 

True that rifleman AP was useless in PR, though. I think this was the case because claymores are a fairly strategic weapon for slow-paced battles that give the users enough time to set up a significant amount of them in areas the enemies will probably pass through or stage an attack from. Combined with the fact that there was no wall-penetration of shrapnel, and that wounding an enemy in an otherwise safe location really did nothing, as a medic could just revive them, and remote detonated AP mines in that game were useless.

 

I think in Squad a claymore kit COULD be useful though. We already have penetration of walls with explosives, which people have been shown to take advantage of with the IEDs. This would make littering a position the enemy will likely stage an attack from with claymores would have much more effective results, especially combined with the fact that you can not pick up medic kits in Squad. Also letting the claymore user carry a lot of them into the field at once would alleviate a huge issue with the claymore class; as it takes a huge amount of time to set up an appreciably sized field, and the game is very fast paced.

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"Guide" AP-mines (MON-50/M18A1) are really effective, but not flexible - you (or teammate) must to keep vision you Claymore constantly.

I play PR AP-rifleman too much, especially on INS-maps. There are few cases in PR, where I kill several soldiers by 1-2 guided Claimors , often - it is only 1-2 man per 5 (!!!) Claymors :|

 

So...

For convent. faction AP-rifleman, I suggest set of AP-mines:

2*"tripware" (bouncing M16/OZM-72) = 6-10 kg + 2*"guided" (M18A1/MON-50) at first channel = 3-4 kg + 2*"guided" at second channel = 3-4 kg;

summary convent. AP-rifleman has 12 (US) - 18 (RF) kg of AP-mines - it is a limit, not more, maybe less (1+1 "guided", for example).

Other weapon is std primary without addition features, 1*grenade (maybe without?), 2*field-dressing, 1*shovel.

 

Don`t forget, that "wire" for bouncing OZM-72/M16 is 10-20 metres (not as PR 2 metres booby-trap) and lethal frags fly around minimum 20 metres, accordingly, M16/OZM-72 is maximum effective on open terrain, not CQB.


For insurgent AP-rifleman, I suggest to refuse "guided" AP-mines, I think insurgents use it not so wide, as convent. forces. But add light "press" AP-mines (PMN-serie): 3*bouncing "tripware" (OZM-3/4) = 9 kg OR 4*not bouncing "tripware" (POMZ-2/2M) = 7-9 kg + 6*"press" (PMN-1/2) = 2,4-3,3 kg;

summary ins. AP-rifleman has ~12 kg of AP-mines.

Other weapon is std AK-serie (preferably collapsible butt), 1*grenade (maybe without?), 2/field-dressing, 1*shovel.

 

Don`t forgen, that "wire" for bouncing OZM-3/4 is 5-10 metres and lethal frags fly around ~10 metres and wire for not bouncing POMZ is 4 metres and lethal frags fly around ~4-6 metres, accordingly, OZM-3/4 and POMZ-2/2M is both effective on open terrain and CQB, PMN-1/2 is for SQB mainly.


About amount of AP-mines per one AP-rifleman...

Firstly, I note, that PR has 10 AT-mine, 30 pressure activated waterjug IEDs, 5 mortar/mine IEDs, 1 arty-shell IEDs, 10 Claymores, 4 (!!!) F1-booby-trap.

In my opinion, for SQUAD, this numbers are quite enough with some adjustments:

even if 5 (now is only 3O.o) AT-mines, 3 mortar IEDs (it is enough, becouse it is necessary to control it), 3-5 Claymores per channel , 8 "press" AP-mines (only INS have it), 5 "tripware" AP-mines.


"Cloaking" of AP-mines (in-game)

Neither shovels!!!

"press" AP-mines plant default under ground, visible only target sensor (visible like a TM-62) ;

"tripware" AP-mines plant with 2 clicks: 1 click LMB - planting half mine under ground with wire from apex 2 click LMB you choose place for max range end of wire with stick.

Don`t forgen about "save-to-armed" time of some mines (see 1 post) !


Disarmed AP-mines (in-game)

"press" AP-mines can be neutralized by bullet, it is save, PMNs didn`t have frags; "tripware" can be neutralized by lightweight (~200 g) distance explosives (which must have sapper)


Overcoming AP-mines (in-game)

In PR, you can overcome "wiretraps" and "press watercontainer" in prone pose. It is like a very careful movement, also you see you can jump over AP-mine (or "wire").

Don`t know, but I would prefer this mechanics for SQUAD.

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yeah I like the player detonation explosives but a trip mine for infantry would be too frustrating for such a slow game.

 

current system is quite nice actually. I like that mines are not always present.

Edited by suds

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@suds , if AP-rifleman for every INS squad is too much (for convent. it should be team-limited), then AP-rifleman can be team-limited (like a HAT, Sniper) , just 2-3 mans with AP-mines is not so much to abuse .

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