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Gews

Damage drop-off...?

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Gews   

I noticed some strange things concerning damage and specifically, drop in damage, from this spreadsheet (apparently last updated in version 9.2). It got me wondering how the initial damages and their drop-offs were calculated. This system is extremely simplistic but it still looks like there's plenty of room for improvement.

 

Just a handful of examples:
 

PPSh-41 vs M9A1
 

For comparison—values from ballistic calculator:

PPSh-41 starts with much higher muzzle energy, but the high-speed bullet experiences more drag and rapidly slows down. By 100 m, the remaining energy of the two projectiles is almost equal.


WSjb03y.png

In-game:

 

PPSh-41 bullet loses damage gradually, while the bullet from the M9A1 experiences a sudden cliff-like drop. At 20 meters, the PPSh bullet has over 5 times the damage of the 9 mm bullet. Final damage of PPSh-41 bullet is more than double that of M9A1.


rejf7in.png

?

Unexplained, extremely sharp drop on damage for all pistols past a short range. Doesn't seem to apply to SMG firing pistol cartridge. M9A1 at 200 m would have about the same energy as Makarov pistol point-blank, yet in Squad it would have less than 1/4 the Makarov's damage (in fact, as shown above, it would have less than 1/4 the Makarov's initial damage at only 20 m...). Why is the final damage so low on the pistol projectiles?

 

 

AKM vs AK74

 

Ballistic calculator:
AKM starts with higher muzzle energy but the AK74's more aerodynamic projectile slowly closes the gap. At 500 m, remaining energy is almost equal between the two rounds.

 

qokeqDT.png

 

In-game:

 

AKM has a fast drop off in damage at just 150 m, after which, for a good distance, the AK74 is much superior.

 

qN4nRBu.png

?

 

 AKM has a less aerodynamic projectile than the AK74, but this doesn't explain such a sharp drop so soon. Could it be that AK74's bullet tumbling inside target was taken into account? Probably not, since AKM has 18% higher damage for the first 150 m. Not sure what that drop-off is based on.

 

 

 

M110, SVD, G3A3
 

Ballistic calculator:
All three rifles have fairly similar drop in energy. M110's projectile has the highest ballistic coefficient and initial energy, using book values. 

 

o9MntM5.png

 

In-game: M110 damage starts to drop off at only 283 m, but SVD's damage doesn't start to fall until an incredible 365 m. In addition to drop-off advantage the SVD has 8% higher initial damage than M110. The G3A3 experiences a drop in damage much sooner than the other two.
 

tqZVQOi.png
 

?

Why does SVD's damage not drop off sooner? The SVD projectiles are lighter and have an inferior ballistic coefficient compared to those of the M110. Why does the SVD have more initial damage than the M110? AFAIK Squad doesn't attempt to account for body armor and therefore I would expect the M110's 175-gr SMKs to provide equal or greater damage, depending on variables. If projectile construction was simply ignored, M110 still has the highest muzzle energy. Why does G3A3 experience its damage drop-off so soon? It reaches its minimum damage of 35 just 40 meters after the M4A1 and RPK74 hit the same number, which doesn't seem right. 

Edited by Gews

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Skul   

Squad is a video game. It has nothing to do with RL.

Squad has more things in common with chess and tic tac toe games than with anything from real life.

 

It has it's own rules, which have nothing to do with RL. And there are no any reasons why would these rules have anything to do with RL.

So I don't really understand why would you even start to compare weapons in game to weapons from real life.

Edited by Skul

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40mmrain   

The ballistics values aren't supposed to be simulative.

 

It's true that some of the things are a bit wildly non-sensical, like the PPSH carrying so much of its damage compared to the other pistol cartridges (though its muzzle velocity should be a lot better thanks to its barrel length), but for the most part the damage and ballistic values roughly look like the real thing, and serve the gameplay purposes a lot better.

 

While I would like to see a bit more more realistic ballistics, most of this stuff is trivial.

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suds   

Looks like some good data analysis (giggidy)

 

Right now development seems to be more about structures and testing than filling in detail which is not critical to gameplay and enjoyment. I am sure the ballistics stuff will get more fleshed out as the game matures. 

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TinyTimm   

Long-time lurker here that finally stopped being so lazy.

 

This provides some valuable insight into the system. Thanks for sharing it. I personally love data analysis (double giggidy), and the inconsistencies are patent as you've pointed out.

 

I'm a touch concerned by the contradictory data here, considering it doesn't set a very positive precedent for the logical balancing of firearms in this game. As you said though, it's all got plenty of room for improvement, and I think the consensus is that it will be improved upon when time is made available. For instance, I'd much rather have the new animation system than have someone grind out the nuances of firearms ballistics. That takes a lot of time, and isn't fully appreciated by the community (ArmA 3 is a great example of a lot of effort without much love). 

 

I would of course love to hear from the Squad devs about this to see their intentions first hand. While I totally understand the need for prioritizing aspects of the game, I'm also of the opinion that if you're going to do something, you should do it right, so this ought not be neglected forever.

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Gews   
22 hours ago, Skul said:

Squad is a video game. It has nothing to do with RL.
 

[...]

 

It has it's own rules, which have nothing to do with RL. And there are no any reasons why would these rules have anything to do with RL.

So I don't really understand why would you even start to compare weapons in game to weapons from real life.

 

 

Developers seem to be telling a different story (emphasis mine):

 

 

On 12/11/2015 at 0:14 AM, Z-trooper said:

Making something like the Lee Enfield do more damage than the SVD because it is a bolt action would be an insult to ballistics and the realism many of you crave.

 

On 11/8/2015 at 9:03 PM, Z-trooper said:
There is currently bullet drop. Realistic amount. Some weapons feel it more than others due to the muzzle velocity / kinetic energy of the round. Some have a flatter trajectory some have a more curved one, just like IRL.

 

 

In the future

when we have done more work on the ballistics I hope to make all weapons reticles work as they do IRL, including the SVD.


 

On 1/26/2016 at 8:22 AM, SgtRoss said:

Optics will be as realistic as we can get them without compromising too much on gameplay. Still plenty of work to be done on them as well as balancing out how they are distributed.

 

The range and accuracy of the AK and M4 are based on real life data, however there may be things are that exaggerated or lower than realistic levels for a specific gameplay purposes. Example being the recoil curve and non-ADS recoil modifiers to "inspire" players to ADS more often and use semi-auto more often.

 

Changed the way RPG-7 and SPG-9 rockets behave.

Previously they all had too high muzzle velocity, now they have an accurate and lower muzzle velocity and a rocket assisted boost after leaving the barrel.

 

 

No, it's not totally 1:1 with real life, it's not intended to be, and couldn't be in any case. But your comment is hyperbolic. Even without relating to real life the question of how or why the specific values are chosen remains just as valid.

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