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FishMan

Change in ticket bleed system?

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Guys, can you please adjust ticket bleed system a little bit?

Correct me if i wrong...

The current system makes impossible to play in defence, cause if you control on 1 flag less than the enemy - you're gonna lose the whole round, because of the ticket bleed, doesn't matter how well you defending.

 

So every match you win is because your team plays 2 times better, in balanced games the team which was faster in capturing the middle flag is winning. It just not fare.

 

In PR if the enemy team play better you can at least go to defence. In squad - defence means defeat, because of this sily ticket bleed system. And if your team for example lost two flags you can just change the map cause the round is lost.

 

Before you implement this it was like the team which controls more flags still lose the round and it was stupid, I agree, but right now you made that if the enemy team controls just this one middle flagg - they winning just because of that. In my opinion both are bad. But I agree, that the second one is better, but still I want to have an ability to play in defence the whole round and win it. In current implementation in 99% it is just impossible because of the bleed.
 

It's not AAS game mode you made out there it's more like "domination".

In BF3 it works because you can capture flags in any order but in Squad I think its a bad decision.

 

And yeah there are no point in hiding enemy tickets with system like this...

Edited by FishMan

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If its just one flag its not that bad, either 2-3 tickets a min. Then you have a chance to kill the enough enemy then you could win. But If you really want defend then you need the bleed flag. even in neutral you could camp it . Holding it would be another thing.

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If its just one flag its not that bad, either 2-3 tickets a min.

 

I am trying to remember at least one round where we was able to win in this case and I can remember only one (from many many rounds I've played), and it was becase the enemy team was wasting their vehicles very heavily and at the end we was able to capture the middle flag. 99% of the time if you control the middle flag - you win.

 

Try to remember by your self how often there were rounds in which you controlled more points and at the same time you lost because of too high losses? How many? 1 out of 100? This is wrong!

 

2-3 tickets in a min still a huge advantage, especially when you have usual casualties. I think it should be zero. Cause if you look from territory control perspective and compare with real life for example - losing 100-200 meters doesn't mean that you lost the war, but in Squad it does.

 

Quote

defend then you need the bleed flag. even in neutral you could camp it 

Yeah but this is more like offense actually. I mean... ok... lets say you tried to attack the enemy and it didn't worked, you understood that they play better: they aim better, they can see you faster and etc.

In PR in this case I just call a defence for entire team and most of the time it work, cause you gaining back some of the advatage by forcing the enemy team to come at you, while you sitting in cover. In Squad this tactics doesn't work even if you manage to defend all of your flags that you have left - you still will lose, cause you have a bleed.

Espeсially when at some point the enemy undestood that they can't break you and fall back, forcing you to offensive actions. Time is not on your side at this point. Thats what I mean. And it's not fare.

 

Also in my opinion gamplay in PR is more like tug of war, while squad is more like raping and I think its one of the reasons...

Edited by FishMan

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You need to take some clay first before having the luxury of playing defense. Why should a team be rewarded for digging in and not bothering to attempt to take ground?

You get to do that if you've already made a push.

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You shouldn't plan your game on the bleed, you should plan it on taking flags from the enemies and destroying their assets. That's how you win with current mechanics.

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My problem with the ticket bleed mechanic is that if you control the majority of the flags, there is no actual incentive to play offense. Once the majority are controlled, if and you commit your entire team to defending, there's no way you can lose, if the teams are even remotely even.

 

This is because the team with the minority of the flags must commit a reasonable amount of their forces to defend their rear flag, while the offending team can afford to commit none. Attacking a larger force than your own is not something that will be successful, unless you're just a far superior force in skill, which should not happen often when the server distributes players randomly to the teams.

 

Because the minority-flag team never has perfect intel, they can never afford to leave their active flag completely unguarded. If they do, then a very small enemy force could completely disrupt them by neutralizing their flag. Even if this small force never causes a net-positive in tickets, they will delay the minority-flag team by forcing them to send some of their resources back to kill them and re-cap the flag. Obviously the team that has the majority of the flags benefits from delaying the minority-flag team, bleeding them further.

 

While it is true that you will rarely see people actually DO this (This happens on the Popanov layer on Fool's Road a lot though), it's mostly because

 

1) Players haven't figured this out yet, really. I don't think most people really think AAS through. They assume the best way to victory is to capture the enemy's flags. This isn't really a bad assumption on the part of the players, it's kind of implied by the premise of the game.

 

2) It's kind of boring to just play pure defense for most people.  While I personally don't think this is the case, because proper defense is pro-active protection of flanks and shifting forces to disrupt enemy staging positions, which is very dynamic and strategic, most don't see it this way. If you try and order your squad members to hold at a position, no matter how key it is, if they do not take contact for a very short period of time, they will begin to wander towards the enemy. They're not soldiers, they're video game players, I don't really blame them for this. They don't understand the strategic intention behind the order and just want to kill baddies, that's not something you can design out of a game.

 

now both of these reasons are big red flags in terms of game design. Because players WILL eventually figure this out and if they're disciplined enough to want to win, they will do it, and it will ruin the game. Secondly, a game should not be balanced by the winning strategy being so boring that people won't willingly do it. While like I said, defense isn't inherently boring, defending against an inferior force in the same place every time you play a map certainly is.

 

My solution would be to just remove the ticket bleed completely. This is the way it worked in PR, and while AAS has always had flaws, it was a lot better then. There was an incentive to hold more flags than the enemy, even with no bleed. Your units could be more forward in the map, which gave the enemy less room to work with, which made them more predictable and easier to box in. Further, you were closer to capping the enemy out, which means you have to win less battles than them to deal a fatal blow. However there was actually some benefit to holding less flags, your supply lines were shorter, which benefited any vehicle trying to rearm, repair, and flee to safety. The frontline was closer to your base so being short of FOBs was less of a problem too.

 

While PR's AAS was not perfect, it rewarded no team for just exclusively attacking or defending and the outcome was never determined by who more quickly rushed the middle flag. This made matches much more fair and enjoyable.

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25 minutes ago, 40mmrain said:

My problem with the ticket bleed mechanic is that if you control the majority of the flags, there is no actual incentive to play offense. Once the majority are controlled, if and you commit your entire team to defending, there's no way you can lose, if the teams are even remotely even.

 

This is what you get with a linear capping order. That's why more work needs to be done on Conquest mode, and/or an adjacency-based capping game mode needs to be introduced. If you just remove the ticket bleed like in PR, you can just have a team sit on its first flag and let the enemy cap up to there, then push out. You only lose tickets from losing capped flags, and if you never cap them, you don't lose them. The enemy, however, stands to lose more tickets as a consequence of capping more flags.

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FishMan actually has a good point here. Even the introduction of HABs has not significantly slowed down the game pace. Don't get me wrong, the matches can be really fun, but sometimes it feels like the rounds end a little too fast with the current ticket bleed. Sometimes it is just a matter of map layout.  Kokan, for example, still favors the rush meta due to its layout and the emphasis made on the central point, whereas the new Yeho with Mil vs Rus has an even number of points and altough it is a good thing there is still too much reliance on rushing. I wish we could test AAS using the PR parameters of the ticket bleed when the actual bleed happens on the second from central or on the last CP. It would emphasize the importance of not losing assets and actually prolong the lifetime of each session.

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18 minutes ago, Tartantyco said:

 

This is what you get with a linear capping order. That's why more work needs to be done on Conquest mode, and/or an adjacency-based capping game mode needs to be introduced. If you just remove the ticket bleed like in PR, you can just have a team sit on its first flag and let the enemy cap up to there, then push out. You only lose tickets from losing capped flags, and if you never cap them, you don't lose them. The enemy, however, stands to lose more tickets as a consequence of capping more flags.

 

Just capping one flag in PR's AAS is a gamble, though. If you lose the initial battle and get pushed back, you'll suffer such a huge ticket loss that it's basically impossible to recover from. This contrasts with the enemy who can afford to lose a flag or two, and while they will be on the back foot, they still have the second half of the match to win two flags and have a chance at victory. You're also fighting at a bit of a disadvantage, because the bases are always in the corner of the map, if you're relegated to your last flag, you can't really maneuver around the enemy, who can effectively box you into your little corner.

 

I agree that a more dynamic game mode would be a good thing, removing the bleed is easy and improves the game a lot.

Edited by 40mmrain

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We had no bleed before, it was terrible.

 

Players are advancing and generally doing what we desire. Tweaks can always be made, but I doubt we will ever go back to "no bleed."

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Ticket bleed encourages your team to be aggressive. We can't spend the game sitting around. Once you have a majority of objectives, that is all you need as you've said.

 

But many times the enemy likes to keep going and take more objectives. If your team is slow and they capture more than the basic majority, you can easily win the game by combining your forces as one and capture their objectives one by one.

 

Becaise you didn't own the objectives in the first place, there is no penalty for you. Even though they had a majority of the points, the action of capturing their points penalizes them greatly to push your side to victory.

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I see no reason to reward people for turning an objective-based game into a deathmatch. Technically, the team who has more flags is the one on "defense." If you have less flags and you are pulling back and turtling, you are clearly not the better team.

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dont see why you would want to reduce ticket bleed for a team defending a flag when they have fewer objectives.. if you want a defensive based map then invasion is your game mode.. I do think there needs to be some adjustment to the ticket allocation though.. too many times there are squads that think they are just a meat grinder and waste tickets via vehicle spam or just thinking they are in a DM .. so there should be an allocation per squad (based on no. of squads and team members) once that squad uses up its allocation then they can get tickets from the left over pool but at a much slower rate and they can only spawn at base or on an RP not fobs.. so they would have to beging to protect tickets more.

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I think there should be more tickets in general. I've logged 90 hours since I started playing a week ago and my game time on average is 35-45 minutes... It takes 10-15 minutes just to get out of Main and back cap. Another 10-15 mins to get a H.A.B. setup; I'm talking set radio, logi run, and set H.A.B.; basic setup no super FOB. I know some games will be longer but it's usually when there's 3 squads or less on a side which I feel 4 full squads minimum is where the game gets good. The game is extremely fun but I find myself wishing there was another 20 minutes at the end of each match. The game needs enough time for the battle lines to progress forward and back and set up multiple FOBS and to build on those FOBS more then just the basics. MORE TICKETS PLEASE!!

Edited by basher25

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