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WhiskeyTango

Squad leaders with no idea what they're doing

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18 minutes ago, Keha said:

Plenty more to it... Just some basics here.

 

Call me crazy but it seems like you know what you're doing... why not lead squads and teach people how to do all those various useful things in game? Change the game population 8-players-at-a-time :) 

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13 hours ago, Keha said:

The only thing I expect from a SL is a damn rally point being up as much as possible. I can't stand walking in a squad without fireteam tactics. How many times have I witnessed this? only twice in over 120hours play time...Granted I play 100% pubs. By keeping this mindset, SL's rarely irk me as much(long as rallies are put down!). So instead I coordinate myself around his orders, to at least have some tactical advantage over the enemy(but only if my SL shows no tactics, beyond move here!).

 

 You don't just flank or go head on. You order 1-4 to suppress location, while making a sharp flank with the environment. Most times another squad is firing headon to position, I take that as my means to flank. If soldier on point stops you stop. If soldier on point moves across open field, the last 2-4 members should cover location, then proceed when point reached cover.

 If entering a building, you slice the pie before entering. Then if following point you look at opposite direction, then towards your point. There are not closed doors in this game.

 

Plenty more to it... Just some basics here.

 

But I never see this really. Just bone head squad leading. Wanting to build. Wanting you to wait for nothing. Wanting you to wait for their mistakes. Wanting you to do blah blah, just to get mowed down because no tactics are being displayed beyond "Move this way". Calling out enemies without distance in relation to direction(I find the keypad system is lacking in fluidity, especially since its been expanded further).

 

I just don't expect this anymore beyond vague leading as we normally see. Now I would expect this out of a clan, or I'd quit said clan. But I rarely even see active clans on the American side of servers. A clan actually deploying fire team tactics? not once... Or I would have asked to join. 

 

 

 

 

You don't see it because I'm guessing you don't SL much. It's hard enough trying to get even 4 people in your squad to follow you and not wonder off get killed only to repeat 3 times over squad comms there is an enemy squad 2 grids off. Then there's always one who thinks there's a better approach to the objective and voices his concerns (which is valid a good deal of the time). But when we had just spent the last 2 minutes herding the cats to SL attempting to run a strait line to the move marker, then there's no way we can can try run all the way around the point while not having someone named x420blazenoscopex firing and giving away our position. There's a reason military men and women follow orders even if there wrong that I never really understood before trying to lead in this game.

 

And even if I could get people to me in a timely fashion by the time we got to the point we needed it will have taken too long simply because this isn't real life where people are afraid to get shot. You will have some crazy bastard on the other team that will run out behind you knowing he will die but taking 1-2 of you out only to respawn at the point 45 seconds later which is about how long it will take a medic to be called back and pick those 2 up to keep moving.

 

So with both of those in mind you also have to deal with placing FOB's, destroying enemy FOB's, taking objectives, going back to defend because squad 1 is "pinned down" 3 grids off any point and any other issues that might arise and you can't effectively take point and micro manage people as needed for that kind of play.

I feel like once you get 75+ hours in this game everyone needs to squad lead for at least 15 games to get a better understanding of how to help a squad lead. I myself didn't realize how much harm I was doing to my SL going against bad orders and lone wolf flanking until I started leading myself for the last month or so.

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The first thing I did when I was squad leader for the first time of my life back in 2015 september was say "Hey, we're going to the first flag. We'll get a lot of resistance. so be ready".

 

And everyone thought I knew what I was doing because I sounded firm and confident saying that, 

 

I just went with the flow mwuahahaha.

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There is definitely some dissolution of teamplay because of the frequent newbie squad lead. It's hard to blame them, though, as there is no good tutorial or reminders built in-game to guide new squad leaders into doing their job properly. Of course, it is alpha, but a new player should not have to watch youtube video tutorials just to avoid being yelled at by your teammates your first time squad leading.

 

A new squad lead should not be taught how to win the battle immediately, but instead taught how to properly communicate with other squad leaders and squad members, and also properly indicate that they are new to the Squad experience. If there's any "tutorial" this game needs, its just something that encourages talking and asking questions. One of the best features of Squad is its great community; people (often) love to help someone trying some role for the first time, as long as they know the person is new to that role (e.g. being a squad lead, firing mortars, being BTR gunner, etc).

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8 minutes ago, Mumble said:

There is definitely some dissolution of teamplay because of the frequent newbie squad lead. It's hard to blame them, though, as there is no good tutorial or reminders built in-game to guide new squad leaders into doing their job properly. Of course, it is alpha, but a new player should not have to watch youtube video tutorials just to avoid being yelled at by your teammates your first time squad leading.

 

A new squad lead should not be taught how to win the battle immediately, but instead taught how to properly communicate with other squad leaders and squad members, and also properly indicate that they are new to the Squad experience. If there's any "tutorial" this game needs, its just something that encourages talking and asking questions. One of the best features of Squad is its great community; people (often) love to help someone trying some role for the first time, as long as they know the person is new to that role (e.g. being a squad lead, firing mortars, being BTR gunner, etc).

+100*squared

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Posted (edited)

From my personal experience as someone who Squadleads all the time in an ArmA unit, and have been a leader all my adult life, I don't quite enjoy leadership in this game. 

 

I've seen good and bad in my time, but I have a fairly limited amount of hours in this game. Allow me to provide my perspective as a somewhat newer player with lots of background in milsim. It might shed some insight on the matter.

 

Much of this bad squad leading, in my mind, is the commonly expressed problem of not having consistent team members. The unit I'm a member of has a substantial consistent playerbase, and in that, I meet with my team leaders constantly, and I chat with their lower enlisted all the time too. I know the men, their strengths and weaknesses, their competency levels, and I know who I can task to carry out different types of orders.

 

In Squad, there's not that kind of cohesion. The same can be said for public ArmA missions for Pogoman's Insurgency, or Liberation as well, so it's not unique to Squad by any means. Not to mention ArmA's listless problems in PvP matches.

 

So with this lack of cohesion, many squad members generally cannot provide true tactical reads: while they know enemies are likely to assault from a certain sector because that's what they've seen in previous matches, they're not really educated in the matter, and can often conflate their past experiences with the reality of the current battlefield. There doesn't seem to be a common authority for Squad that helps correct false assumptions. This is one of the more vague points to be sure, but I've observed it nonetheless.

 

Speaking of sectors, rarely do my men watch them. They don't pull 360 when we conduct a short halt (even though I order it), they don't watch entrances of compounds when we occupy them often enough (I don't demand total diligence in the matter, only a constant glance back. That's enough for public experiences, and would only demand that from players in a dedicated community like the one I'm in), and they most certainly don't watch our rear as much as they should (which I order them to). 

 

This is all to be expected of course, but layered atop that is a necessary understanding for the maps and the game's mechanical nuances. I have to act against intuition: FOBing up atop a point is a cardinal sin in many contexts, even if you provide ample fortification. I can understand that problem, but I didn't know until I saw people get ripped to shreds for doing it; on paper, fortifying a contested point sounds like a reasonable idea, and it takes quite a lot of negativity from players to convince people otherwise. 

 

As I said, I know better now and agree it's not as viable as your senses may initially say, but I was lucky enough to not be the recipient of someone's anger in order to learn it.

 

Such matters made me uncomfortable with leadership in the game. I began to wonder just how many mechanics I was missing out on, or how some gamey decision might win me the vitriol of other players. I'm a resilient individual, and can weather negativity, but that doesn't mean I enjoy it, nor does it mean I'll subject myself to it for the purposes of a game. 

 

Now, I've subsequently gained the confidence to lead and am doing it more as I educate myself thoroughly so I might lead properly. Yet I hope my experience can shed some light on the "bad Squad leaders" conundrum. There are people who have no tactical sense, and they need to be built from the ground up as leaders in a way that public experiences can't provide easily. Yet people like me with real milsim backgrounds and strong leadership potential need a truely earnest, instructional guide that presents the game as what it is: a compromise between realism and gameplay. Karmakut's videos don't really do this, as it's more of the realism than anything else.

 

I know how to move across open terrain, or how to avoid it entirely, but I don't quite know the nuances of FOB building, or the particular damage model for the Strykers. While I have lurked the forums for months, what was truly enlightening was seeing these lessons play out for myself in game, and that can be a very bad experience when you do something that's considered a huge mistake by other players. Needless to say, it unnecessarily deterred my engagement in the game, and it took me a while to come around from it and try again.

Edited by TinyTimm

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In my experience, 

THUNDERDOME for the most part has very competent squad leaders (which would include me :)). Usually if I try to stray away from this server, the quality of SL's usually goes down significantly (Although, I could just have bad luck every time I join another server). 
Because of this, I will say that I tend to squad lead over 90% of the time, because I have confidence that I know how to effectively lead a squad, listen to my squad, and communicate with other squad leaders as well. In my experience, If SL's do not communicate to one another, you might as well just give up. Communication and teamplay wins over skill.

I will also admit I squad lead a lot, because other squad lead's may frustrate me with ideas that I may disagree with. All-in-all, I have had numerous friend requests on Steam from squad leading and for the most part have the same people in my squad's because we enjoy being a team together. 

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Squad leading is an excellent adventure in management, I recommend everyone try it. Don't worry if you think you're bad, some people are bad even though they think they're good and have several hundred hours. Just learn what is important to build in a FOB and you're groovy. 

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Posted (edited)
On 9.5.2017 at 0:51 AM, Socrates said:

The first thing I did when I was squad leader for the first time of my life back in 2015 september was say "Hey, we're going to the first flag. We'll get a lot of resistance. so be ready".

 

It's always good to start by communicating an initial goal and roughly what you expect from your squad. Makes it much easier for everyone to put any further details into context (the human mind works that way).

 

 

11 hours ago, TinyTimm said:

From my personal experience as someone who Squadleads all the time in an ArmA unit, and have been a leader all my adult life, I don't quite enjoy leadership in this game. 

 

My history is from playing OFP, ArmA and some other games, mostly with a group of friends. A group without any ranks or structure whatsoever. Whenever we play, someone steps up to lead the team.

However, due to the slower pace of ArmA and us all knowing and trusting eachother (with some quirks and differences ofcourse) leading that team is usually a breeze. There may be some arguments about how to do certain things but ultimately it doesn't matter much since they all know and trust each other.

 

With a team like that, the leader just has to point them into a direction and say "go". (the less you tell them, the more they work out on their own) This gives the SL much time to plan ahead and assess the situation.

 


Obviously, this is all different on a public server in Squad.

There are a shitload of differences and difficulties an SL has to cope with in order to even try to get everyone on the same page. Just to name a few:

- people don't know eachother

- people don't communicate enough

- people don't trust each other

- people don't know what is expected of them

- people don't know what they shouldn't do

- people don't want to do something wrong and therefor don't take initiative

- not everyone is a native speaker

- there may be bad mics or other technical difficulties

- people might have to leave on short notice

- new people join the squad midgame

- some people don't want to take orders

- some people just don't care and only join a squad for a certain kit

- there may be complete chaos on commandchat (the other day, some asshat was playing music on command, so loud that I couldn't give any more orders to my squadmembers)

- ...

this list basically goes on and on, for as long as your imagination allows it...

 

 

So next time you want to blame someone for beeing a bad SL, just remember that list and instead think of a way to help him out.

Edited by Tajin

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On 2017-5-7 at 2:30 PM, Tartantyco said:

 

People just feel threatened by the thought that someone else might actually know better than hem, so they just dismiss them as "knowitall dickheads".

 

No. A lot of what makes a knowledgable player a dickhead is his tone, and I've seen plenty of people who were very condescending constantly. While they might have been knowledgable and me being a teamplayer who doesn't mind to do a shitty job every once in a while if it helps the team, I shut right down when I hear that shit. Even if he's winning us the game, he can **** right off.

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Sometimes, it could take being a dickhead to get people to listen, because rookies do not listen.  Sometimes you got to scream, and raise your voice, get upset, to get through to some thick skulls who got no ears.  Then when they hear and understand and can do their part, they got respect and will see why the SL had to be a dickhead to get people to listen. :)

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On 05/05/2017 at 7:08 AM, WhiskeyTango said:

Something thats been a real problem in the past few weeks more then the past, is the competency of squad leaders. Yes obviously there are new players and somewhat of a learning curve to the game but there's also blatant disregard for the rest of the team. It's so frustrating when there's a squad leader wondering off to the middle of nowhere with his mates as the rest of the team is trying to rangle him in and hes simply in goring everyone.

 

I feel there should be some sort of system implemented to allow you to be a squad leader, whether it's a rating that's effect by overall teamscore or number of matches played. Also I feel there should be a system in place were the SLs of the team can vote another on from his position or the squad itself could do so.

 

In the finished game, what i'd like would be that you cannot create a squad if you haven't done the official training for squad lead.

And you cannot even launch a game if you haven't done the basic official training.

 

There should be at least two tutorials : one for squad leading, one for the basics of the game.

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Posted (edited)

You just have to consider that many squad leaders have watched everyone fail again and again doing the same things, and when you disobey orders, the squad leader will get annoyed because he or she realises you are likely going to fail in the same way AGAIN. It is also much worse to disobey orders at the start of the game and you'll find many games get lost instantly such as when people drive off in your vehicles against orders, which as you can imagine is annoying for the experienced player, knowing they have half an hour to an hour of failure, walking and damage control ahead of them. Personally I'm just happy if my SL puts a fob down because for most SL's they just charge enemy territory head on with the logi truck, get it blown up, then alll the squads yell at each other to stop the enemy taking our pivotal point which is unguarded. I will say the aussie servers seem to have more co-ordination (less rambo fantasies) and it does probably help for me that there's never any mic latency or anthing.

Edited by scallops

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Posted (edited)

oh and another thing... considering you have to yell at your squad just to get medics and light anti-tanks... maybe there's just as big a problem with a lot of the grunts not being committed to the squad. But you need a successful squad to get lots of kills so you gr unts are only robbing yourselves There's lots to think about as a grunt... being familiar with your bearings to call out contacts quicker when theyhappen, minding your surroundings, watching the flanks... if you get distracted as a grunt thinking of team strats it can be dangerous (not always)... I'm sure i still have lots to learn about being a grunt haha.. it's an art form just like squad leading. I also heard there's a server where it's against the rules to ignore command chat, which is a cool idea, but i can't remember which one it was.

Edited by scallops

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Im playing most of the time as SL:

The biggest problem of noob sls are to insist same failures repeating again and again..SL should have dynamic ideas and alternative plans..SLs should read the game very well and play for objective..Insisting to kill remaining enemies uncapable flag is a complete failure of these type SLs..

 

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Join a group/clan, relaxed, casual or milsim, doesnt matter just means you  know who you play with... becomes a better experience

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Its all about patience, there are good games and bad games, I've seen people with 100s of hours squad lead poorly and people with under a 100 do an amazing job. Unfortunately this is what we have to go through to build and expand the community. I just tend to stick to servers that have Good active admin, multiple clans and frequent players, for that good game play.

But yeah terrible Squad leads is a hard subject of wanting good game play but also wanting  to expand the community.

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I sympathise, but you can always leave the squad or try to get them to promote someone else to squad leader. You're not forced to put up with a shitty SL.

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Squad Leading does require a certain set of skills, but it's achievable by everyone.

Personally i started doing Squad Lead as little as 2 hours on file. I was really interested in first learning how to play the game, but usually squads were full so it'd require me to start a new one, and everyone else that would join would typically have about 20 hours on file but not be confident enough to take on the role. I personally would take on it and just learned as i go, communicating and taking tips and advice from my teammates, also asking them how their nights were going, just to lighten the mood and not make everyone feel judged or nervous, created good memories. 


-If you encounter a new SL, instead of insulting or bashing, try to help out and teach so that more people can become better at being SL.
this game is based on communication, and if you can communicate what is being done wrong, or right, you can clear someones view on what is suppose to be done.

 

Communication is key!
 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Syruphs said:

Squad Leading does require a certain set of skills, but it's achievable by everyone.

Personally i started doing Squad Lead as little as 2 hours on file. I was really interested in first learning how to play the game, but usually squads were full so it'd require me to start a new one, and everyone else that would join would typically have about 20 hours on file but not be confident enough to take on the role. I personally would take on it and just learned as i go, communicating and taking tips and advice from my teammates, also asking them how their nights were going, just to lighten the mood and not make everyone feel judged or nervous, created good memories. 


-If you encounter a new SL, instead of insulting or bashing, try to help out and teach so that more people can become better at being SL.
this game is based on communication, and if you can communicate what is being done wrong, or right, you can clear someones view on what is suppose to be done.

 

Communication is key!
 


I agree with the premise of what you said, but don't agree with your definition of communication. Communication can be quite passive. If you want to learn how to squad lead, don't make a squad. Join a squad and communicate with the SL through listening to him, observing what he's doing, when he's doing it and how other people react. Whether what he tells the squad to do, the squad does and if so, is it effective at achieving the objective.
The crucial part of squad leading isn't about communication. That's something you can hardly affect. It's mostly determined by who joins your squad.
What really matters when squad leading is reading the map and making decisions - only after you've made a decision is when you communicate it.
There's this notion throughout a part of the playerbase that I really hate, that the squad lead, unless he's not telling you a 400 word plan, before you're even remotely close to the frontline, he doesn't have one or knows what he's doing.
Shut up for a moment and listen to your SL, when he says something instead of constantly asking for a plan and drowning out comms with useless crap.
If you do that, you listen to the SL, keep the comms clear and it doesn't work out and you have a horrible experience because he has no idea how to run a squad then you can say he's a bad SL and never join his squad again.
But you can't do that on the grounds that he doesn't communicate, if you were the one who didn't listen.

 

EDIT: Obviously a SL who doesn't talk at all is a different issue entirely.

Edited by Peerun

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Try being an SL for the first time, it is extremely stressful and yet you're here, instead of helping them you bash them. Ok 

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Just now, MINTY said:

Try being an SL for the first time, it is extremely stressful and yet you're here, instead of helping them you bash them. Ok 


Are you talking to me?

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24 minutes ago, Peerun said:


Are you talking to me?

Did I quote you? 

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