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I agree that on smaller maps the mortars can be virtually non-stop. I like the concept, but there should be some limitations put in place IMO. Although that being said, the mortar splash damage is so small right now that even if they stay in their current form, I wouldn't mind that much ^_^

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I haven't seen mortars do that much damage tbh. Maybe in the future they'd be a problem, but currently they don't kill that much. More a psychological effect than anything.
The only time they can rack up lots of kills is when an enemy are bunched up within a small area without a roof, like when a team places a HAB within a walled compound, and they get attacked and unable to come out. But that's not a problem with mortars - an HMG vehicle, grenadiers, or even frag grenades, that can all be used to massacre people within walled compounds as well.

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I have no idea what tatzhit is referring to, as a former infantryman who has deployed and who has been harassed by mortars on just about a daily basis i can vouch that these mortars are way too frequent at the moment. They need a higher requirement to utilize to prevent spamming. Mortars in real life. I'm having fun right now and i'm enjoying the game and all these new updates, i can't wait to see more.

 

But if you want to make the game realistic and modern, please take my advice. I don't know if there's any veterans on the development team for Squad but if there is, show them this post, i really doubt that they'll disagree if they've deployed before. Right now the current status of mortars are equivalent to the invasion on D-day. That's not how it is in everyday Afghanistan, these hajis load up mortars in the back up pickup trucks, they pop shots and they drive off for SF to chase them down and kill them.

 

Also if there's night maps  it would be really cool to get NODS or some sort of night vision device, and the reason i bring this up is because of the "mortars" mortars can shoot IR rounds onto an objective so that it brightens up the whole site while wearing NODS but when you look at the site with a naked eye you see nothing but pitch black. Anyways, you guys are doing great, if you need any tips email me at [email protected]

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14 minutes ago, Tiger89 said:

I have no idea what tatzhit is referring to, as a former infantryman who has deployed and who has been harassed by mortars on just about a daily basis i can vouch that these mortars are way too frequent at the moment. They need a higher requirement to utilize to prevent spamming. Mortars in real life. I'm having fun right now and i'm enjoying the game and all these new updates, i can't wait to see more.

 

But if you want to make the game realistic and modern, please take my advice. I don't know if there's any veterans on the development team for Squad but if there is, show them this post, i really doubt that they'll disagree if they've deployed before. Right now the current status of mortars are equivalent to the invasion on D-day. That's not how it is in everyday Afghanistan, these hajis load up mortars in the back up pickup trucks, they pop shots and they drive off for SF to chase them down and kill them.

 

Also if there's night maps  it would be really cool to get NODS or some sort of night vision device, and the reason i bring this up is because of the "mortars" mortars can shoot IR rounds onto an objective so that it brightens up the whole site while wearing NODS but when you look at the site with a naked eye you see nothing but pitch black. Anyways, you guys are doing great, if you need any tips email me at [email protected]

 

I am referring to low effectiveness ingame, not realism.
I agree that obvs a lot of gameplay is much too hectic by "real life" standards, so what? Most people don't want to play boredom simulator.

 

That said, possibly a good idea would be to make mortars more lethal but less frequent, so that people are more terrified of them - I'm afraid players will soon figure out mortars are more loud than dangerous.

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Mortars as is, have very little damage radius. We played 9.4 from the evening it came out. We got mortared and we used them on the enemy aswell. When they were dropping it on us, it was falling right next to us and we took no damage, it was laughable how ineffective the damage radius is. When we used them, we got used to dropping it very accurately with good and fast spotters. I mean we would drop them right on the enemys position. At the end of each round, on average, we would kill 10 guys per tube. So that sums up to 20 kills per 3 man mortar team. 

Now compare those 20 kills on 2 guys that usually have from 15 to 30 kills each per round. 

If anything, they need to UP THE DAMAGE. Not lower it.

Edited by Rainmaker

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16 minutes ago, tatzhit said:

 

I am referring to low effectiveness ingame, not realism.
I agree that obvs a lot of gameplay is much too hectic by "real life" standards, so what? Most people don't want to play boredom simulator.

 

That said, possibly a good idea would be to make mortars more lethal but less frequent, so that people are more terrified of them - I'm afraid players will soon figure out mortars are more loud than dangerous.

I didn't say to add weapon malfunctions and jams, i didn't say to add water for when the soldier is dehydrated, and many other things that would truly make it a "boredom simulator" as you so call it. All i'm saying is you guys are relying too much on the mortars, they are meant for harassment, they're not made to get a lot of individual kills as a rifleman should. Yet there's people like you who assume mortars should be equivalent to a nuclear attack, uhm no. With that being said i would agree to make them a bit more lethal but to add a heftier requirement to utilize them. 

10 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

Mortars as is, have very little damage radius. We played 9.4 from the evening it came out. We got mortarted and we used them on the enemy aswell. When they were dropping it on us, it was falling right next to us and we took no damage, it was laughable how ineffective the damage radius is. When we used them, we got used to dropping it very accurately with good and fast spotters. I mean we would drop them right on the enemys position. At the end of each round, on average, we would kill 10 guys per tube. So that sums up to 20 kills per 3 man mortar team. 

Now compare those 20 kills on 2 guys that usually have from 15 to 30 kills each per round. 

If anything, they need to UP THE DAMAGE. Not lower it.

That's a lot of kills for a mortar actually. They're not meant for individual targets anyhow.

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@Tiger89

It sounds like you are talking about the arty trucks. What about being harassed by actual mortar placements? Like from the russians, do you think that would still be considered really too frequent of volleys? Would you say the taliban having actual mortar placements would be unrealistic if they actually had control of a city?

@suds

Maybe they will add earplugs, i dont know about the whole frequency thing. Like I said i think the sound lvl is fine for me. But if they do add earplugs i hope they add sunglasses.

Edited by madcat768

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33 minutes ago, Tiger89 said:

I didn't say to add weapon malfunctions and jams, i didn't say to add water for when the soldier is dehydrated, and many other things that would truly make it a "boredom simulator" as you so call it. All i'm saying is you guys are relying too much on the mortars, they are meant for harassment, they're not made to get a lot of individual kills as a rifleman should. Yet there's people like you who assume mortars should be equivalent to a nuclear attack, uhm no. With that being said i would agree to make them a bit more lethal but to add a heftier requirement to utilize them. 

That's a lot of kills for a mortar actually. They're not meant for individual targets anyhow.

 

I'd say from a gameplay perspective, mortar should be far more lethal than a marksman/AR/grenadier, for the following reasons:
1. Mortars require an impressive amount of teamplay - they need 4-5 competent people who know what they're doing and listen to comms (2 gunners, 1 logi driver, 1-2 spotters, not counting anyone defending the mortar base and supply route if enemy decides to shut mortars down). In many pub matches, that could be easily a third of all the competent people on the team ))

2. Those 4-5+ people are now out of the game and not fighting for cap zones, leaving the team at a huge disadvantage

3. Mortars are in many ways more limited than riflemen - can't hit moving targets, can't clear buildings, etc.

 

For comparison, 4-5 competent people who decide to competently build a superfob in capzone can often win the game.
4-5 competent people who decide to hunt vehicles can often leave the enemy team without rides.
4-5 competent people who decide to simply advance and fight the enemy can help take over a few objectives and score about 10 kills apiece.
4-5 competent people with mortars can... score about 4 kills apiece under most ideal conditions, and not contribute anything else?

As the previous poster said, mortars are weak in game terms, although that is likely somewhat realistic.

PS. One caveat about realism: now even modern-day militia and jihadists increasingly use UAVs for correcting mortar fire. This hugely increases their lethality, as mortar fire is often pinpoint accurate, with direct hits on 2nd-3rd round. We can consider minimap, markers, and perfect comms as being some approximation of using a UAV maybe?

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11 minutes ago, tatzhit said:

 

I'd say from a gameplay perspective, mortar should be far more lethal than a marksman/AR/grenadier, for the following reasons:
1. Mortars require an impressive amount of teamplay - they need 4-5 competent people who know what they're doing and listen to comms (2 gunners, 1 logi driver, 1-2 spotters, not counting anyone defending the mortar base and supply route if enemy decides to shut mortars down). In many pub matches, that could be easily a third of all the competent people on the team ))

2. Those 4-5+ people are now out of the game and not fighting for cap zones, leaving the team at a huge disadvantage

3. Mortars are in many ways more limited than riflemen - can't hit moving targets, can't clear buildings, etc.

 

For comparison, 4-5 competent people who decide to competently build a superfob in capzone can often win the game.
4-5 competent people who decide to hunt vehicles can often leave the enemy team without rides.
4-5 competent people who decide to simply advance and fight the enemy can help take over a few objectives and score about 10 kills apiece.
4-5 competent people with mortars can... score about 4 kills apiece under most ideal conditions, and not contribute anything else?

As the previous poster said, mortars are weak in game terms, although that is likely somewhat realistic.


Well said.

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2 hours ago, tatzhit said:

 

I'd say from a gameplay perspective, mortar should be far more lethal than a marksman/AR/grenadier, for the following reasons:
1. Mortars require an impressive amount of teamplay - they need 4-5 competent people who know what they're doing and listen to comms (2 gunners, 1 logi driver, 1-2 spotters, not counting anyone defending the mortar base and supply route if enemy decides to shut mortars down). In many pub matches, that could be easily a third of all the competent people on the team ))

2. Those 4-5+ people are now out of the game and not fighting for cap zones, leaving the team at a huge disadvantage

3. Mortars are in many ways more limited than riflemen - can't hit moving targets, can't clear buildings, etc.

 

For comparison, 4-5 competent people who decide to competently build a superfob in capzone can often win the game.
4-5 competent people who decide to hunt vehicles can often leave the enemy team without rides.
4-5 competent people who decide to simply advance and fight the enemy can help take over a few objectives and score about 10 kills apiece.
4-5 competent people with mortars can... score about 4 kills apiece under most ideal conditions, and not contribute anything else?

As the previous poster said, mortars are weak in game terms, although that is likely somewhat realistic.

PS. One caveat about realism: now even modern-day militia and jihadists increasingly use UAVs for correcting mortar fire. This hugely increases their lethality, as mortar fire is often pinpoint accurate, with direct hits on 2nd-3rd round. We can consider minimap, markers, and perfect comms as being some approximation of using a UAV maybe?

The issue here is balancing. If the devs were to make mortars more lethal, then where does that leave room for the A-10 warthog in the future? If you want accuracy so bad that's what close air support and an 8 digit grid coordinate is for. Mortars have been and always will be used as an "indirect fire method". They were used to eliminate enemies behind structures and walls so that the infantry could advance not to rack up kills and to eliminate a platoon entirely, that's the job of close air support or infantryman or even MLRS. As for your comparisons on 4-5 competent people being used to run a mortar i really think that has a lot to do with skill level of the individual. Granted a logi run is a must, i've successfully killed many soldiers with a three man team. That three man team that knows what they're doing can eliminate all of your previously mentioned statements given the scenario. 

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2 hours ago, madcat768 said:

@Tiger89

It sounds like you are talking about the arty trucks. What about being harassed by actual mortar placements? Like from the russians, do you think that would still be considered really too frequent of volleys? Would you say the taliban having actual mortar placements would be unrealistic if they actually had control of a city?

@suds

Maybe they will add earplugs, i dont know about the whole frequency thing. Like I said i think the sound lvl is fine for me. But if they do add earplugs i hope they add sunglasses.

To answer your question madcat768, I do think it is unrealistic. There was a taliban stronghold in Marjah back in 2007 when my platoon helped aid in the surge by flushing them out. They had full control of Marjah, like i said previously the only time taliban mortared us was when they put the tubes onto the back of their Toyotas and they would harrass fire and drive off, hoping that they killed 1 or two people. There's a reason that the insurgent forces in this game doesn't have optics like the U.S. does. Because of their weakness in equipment they use different tactics to hit us, such as IEDS,VBIES, IDF, etc.

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To limit mortar spamming they're going to have to increase the resources cost.

 

I like the sound of mortar trucks for insurgents. Hmmmm.

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teamwork requirement for mortars will reduce pretty fast. once you get a feel for it you can make a good guess, once you start placing them in the same location each time you will learn the numbers and just spam them.

Supplies can change that, perhaps some variable wind to cause a less predictable result, wouldnt need to be realistic, it could just effect the high altitude? or even better, some random velocity variation applied to each tube when it is placed so 2 mortars need slight tuning variation to hit the same range.

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Quote

I'd say from a gameplay perspective, mortar should be far more lethal than a marksman/AR/grenadier, for the following reasons:
1. Mortars require an impressive amount of teamplay - they need 4-5 competent people who know what they're doing and listen to comms (2 gunners, 1 logi driver, 1-2 spotters, not counting anyone defending the mortar base and supply route if enemy decides to shut mortars down). In many pub matches, that could be easily a third of all the competent people on the team ))

2. Those 4-5+ people are now out of the game and not fighting for cap zones, leaving the team at a huge disadvantage

3. Mortars are in many ways more limited than riflemen - can't hit moving targets, can't clear buildings, etc.

 

 

I agree with the above to some degree.

 

If they are to cause more damage, they should cost more. Increase ammo cost. And add smoke rounds, and other rounds (not sure what options exist). 

 

I think the hype train surrounding mortars will end soon. Long term it will be somewhat of an added luxury to defence positions. The range is incredible. 

 

A defensive Squad has to take responsibility for this, as loosing another 4-5 man  mortar Squad is a serious misallocation of valuable military resources. 

 

In my experience having a dedicated mortar Squad can makes certain situations difficult when it comes to defence on one point and offence on the other. We end up getting overrun somewhere. 

 

This is my present opinion. It might change. 

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Wel the only thing i can think off is a cooldown period....except for the insurgents, they like to cook off frags in mortars i have seen x'D bhahaha. Then again downside of cooldown is making mortars less attractive, cuz Pub' matches is all about rushing and high velocity firepower from what i can usually tell

Edited by -MG

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One possible solution to at least slightly slowing the SPAM but still being fun to use is as follows:

 

Treat the interaction with the mortar more like planting ieds.  That is to say.  Be "mounted" in the mortar sight long enough to set distance and direction,  then have to get out and "grab" a mortar round.  It would be in your hands as if you had the ied.  But the ONLY place it would turn green (to place) is at the tip of the mortar tube as if you were "hanging" the round.  When you clicked to "place", the mortarman does the "duck" animation,  the mortar round slides down the tube and fires.  At which point the mortarman can either get back in the sight to correct the next shot, or go "grab" another mortar from a crate that is auto built as part of the mortar tube.

 

This accomplishes two things.  

1. It increases the immersion for the mortar team as if single crewed, it would take longer.  And if crewed would improve teamplay.

 

2.  Slow down mortar spam unless the mortar is multicrewed.  

 

It would also provide the currently missing mortar animation.  (Hanging the round, then ducking,  which is a cool extra bit that very few if any other games have).

 

Basically just like the video above.  But slowed slightly due to "picking up" the rounds.  

 

Edited by Hooves
Adding comment

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Oh, are you getting wrecked by mortars? Poor princess... 

 

The only things about mortars which might need more work are pretty superficial - a bit of damage tweaking and animations, apart from that - these babies are awesome!

 

Here is some footage from a forward observer eyes of a super FOB getting wiped, and I think someone requested to change mortar sounds :D 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGVkmFWN2s4

 

 

 

 

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I am researching one great battle that took place in the 90s in europe. It was the siege of Croatian city Vukovar. Where armored mechanised force of 80000 (yugoslav national army with large volonteer force of serbian paramilitary) men with 1600 MBTs and APCs were besieging the town against 1800 defenders without much weapons or ammo, and only few anti-tank weapons, like two ''M79 Osa'' and few of ''RB M-57''. They couldn't take the city for 3 months, in which they lost about 500 vehicles, meaning tanks and APCs and even 3 jets.

 

Now, the point is, from the evidence that exist, statistics and all that, not to go into too much detail - in those 3 months the aggressor lost 10000 to 15000 men KIA and 5000 to 10000 wounded. 80% of those casualties are from the 60 and 81mm mortars.

 

The importance and deadliness of mortars and its good crew operating it is clear. And from the game point of view we need stronger mortars to reward the teamplay work we are doing. Give us that importance and power the weapon deserves. As is, its too weak...

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Even better solution. Make the mortars exactly the same as they were in Project Reality.

It took a while to calibrate them, and you had to physically rearm them with ammopacks.

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2 hours ago, -MG said:

Easy solution; Cooldowns after each 6 rounds of 5 minutes ?

Thats not even a full load, that would be rubbish. Cooldown would completely kill the mortar especially the (LOL....) 5 minute one...

Edited by Rainmaker

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3 hours ago, Rainmaker said:

in those 3 months the aggressor lost 10000 to 15000 men KIA and 5000 to 10000 wounded.

 

:D yeah sure

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