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Cavazos

How to keep fireteam implementation simple

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So people want fireteams, but I think the implementation is not so simple. You have to consider how they will communicate.

 

Some people want an extra fireteam chat button. Do we want more complexity? I do not think so. Some will say, "it's only one more button", but it isn't the button that is the issue. It is the principle of keeping this game simple and easy to use.

 

On the principle of being simple and easy, some people rather just have one big squad that moves as one. A lot of firepower controlled by one leader.

 

Besides, where exactly are we supposed to find two fireteam leaders? It isn't like every player in this game is a team leader. A lot of times, we have a lack of team leaders just for squads.

 

So let's do this: have squads have the option to be turned into a fireteam-able squad. A button changes the color of the squad name or an icon shows up, and the squad leader now has fireteam capability.

 

You can see which squad you can join in which you have the chance to be a fireteam leader! Or one you want to avoid because you don't want to be assigned as a leader.

 

How about fireteam comms?

 

Well, make it so that the "squad chat" is now your own fireteam chat. When a fireteam member uses his squad chat, it is actually to his fireteam. When the fireteam leader uses his squad leader chat, it is actually chat between the SL and two fireteam leaders.

 

For the SL, his squad chat only goes to the fireteam leaders while his squad leader chat remains the same.

 

"But I need to be able to talk to all my squad members!"

 

Then use your local chat.

 

If you want fireteams, that means having two leaders to lead them for you. It is leading through delegation. This is how platoon leaders lead. If you do not like this, you have the option to stay as a normal squad.

 

What makes a fireteam isn't weapons or equipment. What makes a fireteam is how you organize and communicate.

 

 

Edited by Cavazos

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I don't need distinct comms below the squad level. I don't think many others do either. What I do need is a simple way to split the squad into two or three elements to ease commanding the squad. Being able to break the squad into two four man teams and reference each team with one word is so much easier than trying to use distinct player names. 

 

I want to be able to say, "red team, hold here and put fire down north, blue team, we are flanking left." You cannot do that in the pub atmosphere during protracted engagements.

 

We don't need more comms, we just need a simple way for the SL to split the squad into elements for more precise command and control.

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Automatic FT assigning, the ability to adjust who is in what FT and color coding are planned in the future UI redesign. We plan on having FT-specific markers available too.

 

We do not plan on creating separate FT comm. channels.

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16 minutes ago, SgtRoss said:

Automatic FT assigning, the ability to adjust who is in what FT and color coding are planned in the future UI redesign. We plan on having FT-specific markers available too.

 

We do not plan on creating separate FT comm. channels.

Sweet. I was worried that was all borked when player status colors were implemented.

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Might be nice if the SL could assign fireteam leader so as to change his I'd so to have a stripe on the bottom compass.  Or simple squad layer to be able to drag names around the squad list.

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37 minutes ago, grimshadow said:

Aw man was hoping for a seperate comms button.

I've said it before and I'll say it here, I don't see the need for separate comms. Any use that would separate the squad up that requires that much communication is best done with two separate squads.

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We're aware you don't, however I do. Being a squad leader that has a communicative squad as well as communicative squad leaders on your team makes it difficult to filter your comms. Having subleaders organizing and leading their own teams within your own squad will just add even more noise to the SL's radio.

 

Either way, I am very glad to see Ross' answer on how fireteams will take shape.

Edited by Cavazos

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Fire teams sounds great. Use local for comms, another channel would be unnecessarily complex imo. 

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I want the ability to assign fireteams, but I don't feel the need for a fireteam leader role. That's so many layers of communication going on in a game, it's too much. It's easier for you to say "fireteams talk in 3d, unless you have something to share that is of importance to the whole squad". Fireteams are only important over longer distances, at close range you might as well keep everybody together. 

 

All I really need is a way to change colours, ie red and blue teams like in SWAT 4. Just to make things easier in general situations, like when you want to build an FOB. "Team red, help me dig. Team blue, overwatch."  

Simple.  Simplicity in communication is key.

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2 hours ago, Cavazos said:

We're aware you don't, however I do. Being a squad leader that has a communicative squad as well as communicative squad leaders on your team makes it difficult to filter your comms. Having subleaders organizing and leading their own teams within your own squad will just add even more noise to the SL's radio.

 

Either way, I am very glad to see Ross' answer on how fireteams will take shape.

Exactly. O well will just keep using 3rd party anyway 

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What about a mute button? It could generally be used to mute annoying players in the game and be used to just mute the squad members in that particular fire team so the SL only has to hear the fire team leader(s) and the mates which are still with him. Could be a lot of chat going on in the radio if there are two fireteams - probably even at separate locations - and they all have to use the squad channel to communicate in their own fire team. Local voice doesn't work that well when you get two far away and distance shouldn't be a obstacle in fire teams.


edit: Actually, there is already a lot of things going on in the radio and fire teams won't be that effective if you can't easily communicate. 

btw: I love how you can't hear anyone speaking when artillery goes down near you. (no sarcasm, really)

Edited by EKzyis

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On 4/30/2017 at 12:36 AM, SiC said:

I want the ability to assign fireteams, but I don't feel the need for a fireteam leader role. That's so many layers of communication going on in a game, it's too much. It's easier for you to say "fireteams talk in 3d, unless you have something to share that is of importance to the whole squad". Fireteams are only important over longer distances, at close range you might as well keep everybody together. 

 

All I really need is a way to change colours, ie red and blue teams like in SWAT 4. Just to make things easier in general situations, like when you want to build an FOB. "Team red, help me dig. Team blue, overwatch."  

Simple.  Simplicity in communication is key.

Thats exactly what is being suggested and by the look of the Dev post earlier in the thread, what is likely to be implemented. Fireteams are not a long range unit, they are to allow a Squad Leader (if we insist on using American terminology ;)) to better organise his Squad/Section. 

 

As a SL myself, being able to arrange my lads into two teams ahead of time and then be able to call out "red team, provide fire support, blue follow me on the assault" will only further aide the squad's overall effectiveness. 

 

Any serving or veteran will tell you the same thing. Fireteams aide tactics and communication. 

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On ‎29‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 8:18 PM, PolishKruk said:

I've said it before and I'll say it here, I don't see the need for separate comms. Any use that would separate the squad up that requires that much communication is best done with two separate squads.

I think it needs something to separate the FTs... to avoid confusing communication... we get it now when there are split up people using squad comms when they should be using local... so I think something for FT2 leader for his squad communication... with override being the SL to everyone...its not a must have but would be useful

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So right now:

 

Local Chat

Squad Chat

Command Chat

Whisper Chat

 

That should be it. Adding any more channels is going to be a MESS. I also see the Fire Teams within the squad as a fancy way of encouraging the suppression/advancement mechanic. One fire team provides suppression as the other advances. I trust the devs will do the right thing as they always do it's just the way people decide to use it. 

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1 hour ago, CptDirty said:

So right now:

 

Local Chat

Squad Chat

Command Chat

Whisper Chat

 

That should be it. Adding any more channels is going to be a MESS. I also see the Fire Teams within the squad as a fancy way of encouraging the suppression/advancement mechanic. One fire team provides suppression as the other advances. I trust the devs will do the right thing as they always do it's just the way people decide to use it. 

Huh?

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22 minutes ago, Ti0mat said:

Huh?

Whisper? By default it's your numpad to talk directly to Squad Leaders aside from the Command Chat...?

 

 

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Just now, CptDirty said:

Whisper? By default it's your numpad to talk directly to Squad Leaders aside from the Command Chat...?

 

 

Never heard it refereed to as such.

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1 hour ago, CptDirty said:

So right now:

 

Local Chat

Squad Chat

Command Chat

Whisper Chat

 

That should be it. Adding any more channels is going to be a MESS. I also see the Fire Teams within the squad as a fancy way of encouraging the suppression/advancement mechanic. One fire team provides suppression as the other advances. I trust the devs will do the right thing as they always do it's just the way people decide to use it. 

Exactly! Since, the (0) key isn't used in the whisper mode, maybe it can be set to the default for SL & FTL direct com. 

 

I'd also like to see the devs clean up the overall coms in general (See below). 

 

 

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7 hours ago, embecmom said:

I think it needs something to separate the FTs... to avoid confusing communication... we get it now when there are split up people using squad comms when they should be using local... so I think something for FT2 leader for his squad communication... with override being the SL to everyone...its not a must have but would be useful

Just no. What you are describing is two smaller squads with the SLs using direct chat between them. That is already possible, yet no one uses it.

 

You want less confusing comms? Then teach SLs that not every thought that pops into their pea sized brains needs to be broadcasted over the command net. Many times its better if a SL communicates with just the specific SL he needs to work with instead of the entire command staff. THAT is what overburdens comms and makes being a SL a pain in the ass.

 

Also, again as a primer for fireteams, they are apart of a squad and designed to mutually support each other. They should never be far away from each other. You shouldn't have one fireteam on one objective and the other on a completely different one. Thats not how they are designed to work. Nor does Squad need or require that level of complexity at the tactical level.

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Posted (edited)

The only other channel i'd probably vouch for is maybe a "Vehicle Channel" just because sometimes it would be nice to have a direct line to the crew, as local get's a bit crowded sometimes when you're a passenger.

Local chat basically IS the fireteam channel. I find if it's a good game and I'm leading, managing the radio chatter of both the squad channel and the command channel is difficult enough. You don't need an additional layer adding to that. A squad leader should issue orders to the fireteam via the squad channel. The fireteam should use the squad channel to acknowledge the order, then carry it out. If there's anything else the squad leader should know, then the squad channel can be used.

Assuming no-one ha swallowed their microphone and everyone speaks clearly, there should be no confusion regarding who's doing what.

Edited by mangoman65

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17 hours ago, PolishKruk said:

You want less confusing comms? Then teach SLs that not every thought that pops into their pea sized brains needs to be broadcasted over the command net. Many times its better if a SL communicates with just the specific SL he needs to work with instead of the entire command staff. THAT is what overburdens comms and makes being a SL a pain in the ass.

Yep! Keeping it short and sweet. 

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, PolishKruk said:

.

 

You want less confusing comms? Then teach SLs that not every thought that pops into their pea sized brains needs to be broadcasted over the command net. Many times its better if a SL communicates with just the specific SL he needs to work with instead of the entire command staff. THAT is what overburdens comms and makes being a SL a pain in the ass.

 

Also, again as a primer for fireteams, they are apart of a squad and designed to mutually support each other. They should never be far away from each other. You shouldn't have one fireteam on one objective and the other on a completely different one. Thats not how they are designed to work. Nor does Squad need or require that level of complexity at the tactical level.

are they apart from squad or a part of a squad?

 

How I or anyone decides to use a fireteam, is of personal game play, but ultimately will depend on how fireteams are implemented into the game, I forsee it being useful in other ways than just simple firesupport teams.  The fact is you can lead a horse to water but cant make him drink so teaching anyone to use anything in the game is dependant on how willing that person is to use it..it does not mean the tool itself is useless.   There is no complexity in pressing a button only the ability to use it.

 

People want a separate in vehicle communication because a) when they use squad comms it can get confusing when directions are shouted out not meant for the rest of the squad, b) local cant be heard for some reason although that could just be settings volume.. 

 

being able to split a squad and speak to them separately is useful rather than cluttering up squad chat with information not required by the other fire team it may also help in the 'who said that' scenario if the display showed the colour of the fireteam leader speaking... 

 

as always its an opinion and conjecture until the devs decide... then we can all utilise it how we wish.

 

 

Edited by embecmom

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More coms buttons/channels would be a bad thing.

 

FIX:

Have a longer range for local chat for squad members. Not increased volume, just range.

 

"spacing" of a squad limited by local coms is a nice treat for a loan wolf :)

 

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9 hours ago, embecmom said:

are they apart from squad or a part of a squad?

 

How I or anyone decides to use a fireteam, is of personal game play, but ultimately will depend on how fireteams are implemented into the game, I forsee it being useful in other ways than just simple firesupport teams.  The fact is you can lead a horse to water but cant make him drink so teaching anyone to use anything in the game is dependant on how willing that person is to use it..it does not mean the tool itself is useless.   There is no complexity in pressing a button only the ability to use it.

 

People want a separate in vehicle communication because a) when they use squad comms it can get confusing when directions are shouted out not meant for the rest of the squad, b) local cant be heard for some reason although that could just be settings volume.. 

 

being able to split a squad and speak to them separately is useful rather than cluttering up squad chat with information not required by the other fire team it may also help in the 'who said that' scenario if the display showed the colour of the fireteam leader speaking... 

 

as always its an opinion and conjecture until the devs decide... then we can all utilise it how we wish.

 

 

Bottom line, by the time two or three fireteams are so spread out that they need separate comm channels two or three independent squads with their own rally points will be more effective making this commo issue, well, a non-issue. People just need to stop being pussies about being a SL and do it.

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