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UniversalRemonster

SL Experience Requirement

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I'll just get right down to it. 

 

90% of the SL's I join have no idea how to be effective. This might be a byproduct of pubby squads but, either way, it's the biggest con in the game. Join squad, deal with idiot for 30 minutes. Drop squad join new one, deal with uncommunicative SL for 10 minutes. Rinse, repeat. Join new server....start it all over again. 

 

Anyway, there should but some sort of play time requirement, or training requirement...or something in order to be an SL. Something should be done about the incompetence that most SL's suffer from. Your response may be "well then YOU lead a squad". I can and I do. That's not the point of my post. The point is that  the majority of SL's don't know what they're doing and ruin it for new players. It's an issue that should be noted/addressed. 

 

That's the meat of my post but I can justify it a little more: Why have a MilSim game NAMED Squad if there's little to no actual tactics used. I came from PlanetSide and was excited that I found a game that not only encouraged teamwork, but practically mandated it. However, I've become increasingly surprised at the blatant lack of teamwork. Examples I can cite in first 6 hours of play time:

  • SL doesn't know what Kit to be to get into car. 
  • SL doesn't know how to start engine once in said car.
  • SL gets into another squads car without another member and drives off abandoning all players at main.
  • Not ONE SL knows how to create FOB on team. 
  • SL has squaddies roaming around entire map with no regroup.
  • Probably the most frustrating one I see the most - SL runs DIRECTLY AT objective. "Hey lets go re-secure this point and run through  the most defensibly obvious street/building. Flank. Smoke. Whatever. FFS do not run straight line path to the objective. Everyone that's ever played a tactical shooter knows this...at least that's what I thought. 

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Valdr   

I'd just like to address the "If you don't like it then YOU lead a squad" argument. It's not always that simple. Some people don't make good leaders. It's not about skill or knowledge or experience, it's just that you need certain qualities and a bit of charisma to get guys to want to follow your lead. When I am in a Squad, I try to act as an adviser to the SL. I do not backseat squadlead, I do not argue with the SL, but I try to give them tips and offer positive suggestions. I am a quieter person over comms, I do not use them for chatter or anything that isn't important information that needs to be shared over comms, and I have found that people tend to get the impression that a quiet SL is an SL who doesn't care or isn't paying attention and they feel like they aren't being led properly.

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MilosV   
1 hour ago, UniversalRemonster said:

I'll just get right down to it. 

 

90% of the SL's I join have no idea how to be effective. This might be a byproduct of pubby squads but, either way, it's the biggest con in the game. Join squad, deal with idiot for 30 minutes. Drop squad join new one, deal with uncommunicative SL for 10 minutes. Rinse, repeat. Join new server....start it all over again. 

 

Anyway, there should but some sort of play time requirement, or training requirement...or something in order to be an SL. Something should be done about the incompetence that most SL's suffer from. Your response may be "well then YOU lead a squad". I can and I do. That's not the point of my post. The point is that  the majority of SL's don't know what they're doing and ruin it for new players. It's an issue that should be noted/addressed. 

 

That's the meat of my post but I can justify it a little more: Why have a MilSim game NAMED Squad if there's little to no actual tactics used. I came from PlanetSide and was excited that I found a game that not only encouraged teamwork, but practically mandated it. However, I've become increasingly surprised at the blatant lack of teamwork. Examples I can cite in first 6 hours of play time:

  • SL doesn't know what Kit to be to get into car. 
  • SL doesn't know how to start engine once in said car.
  • SL gets into another squads car without another member and drives off abandoning all players at main.
  • Not ONE SL knows how to create FOB on team. 
  • SL has squaddies roaming around entire map with no regroup.
  • Probably the most frustrating one I see the most - SL runs DIRECTLY AT objective. "Hey lets go re-secure this point and run through  the most defensibly obvious street/building. Flank. Smoke. Whatever. FFS do not run straight line path to the objective. Everyone that's ever played a tactical shooter knows this...at least that's what I thought. 

This, it's nerve wrecking anxiety inducing when i have a SL that behaves like he started playing 2 hours ago, i've played project reality since 2006, squad since 2015, and i don't EVER squad lead, overconfidence in this case is fatal. I support your suggestion. I've been lucky enough to find and add a couple of people on steam who have played PR for as long as i have, difference is night and day, it's like playing against bots once you have a SL and squad that's like that.

Edited by MilosV

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SSIXS   

First, SQUAD is not a MilSim.

 

While I understand your frustration, and I think your reasoning is sound...there's the overwhelming pitfall of public matches. 

 

What happens if only 1 or 2 players on a team meet the time requirement?

 

I don't see where implementing a time requirement specifically solves the issue either, as someone could have hundreds of hours in the game, but still not be as effective as you want in the SL role.

 

The fact  is, outside of organized matches and events...SQUAD is always going to be a crap-shoot, as to how effective squad leaders and a whole team will be in coordination/communication.  That's just the nature of public matches, in a game that wishes to appeal to the masses and turn a profit.

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Smee   

Always think maybe SL could get server award as being an approved admin SL. Not that it would stop  people creating squads but seeing  quality SL might inspire.  Change the sarge stripes to pips.

Edited by Smee

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1 hour ago, SSIXS said:

First, SQUAD is not a MilSim.

 

While I understand your frustration, and I think your reasoning is sound...there's the overwhelming pitfall of public matches. 

 

What happens if only 1 or 2 players on a team meet the time requirement?

 

I don't see where implementing a time requirement specifically solves the issue either, as someone could have hundreds of hours in the game, but still not be as effective as you want in the SL role.

 

The fact  is, outside of organized matches and events...SQUAD is always going to be a crap-shoot, as to how effective squad leaders and a whole team will be in coordination/communication.  That's just the nature of public matches, in a game that wishes to appeal to the masses and turn a profit.

 

Well, it certainly seems like a MilSim type game.

 

I was hoping that it was not a byproduct of all public games, but that's the feeling I'm starting to get. As far as implementation; there are many options and my ideas were just off the top of my head. I'm sure an incentive/requirement could be found that is more appropriate. I like Smee's idea - Highlite the guys who know what is going on. 

 

I'm not here to crap on the game, it seems very enjoyable once you get into a squad that's coordinated. I'm just giving my feedback, and what I believe is one of the biggest downfalls of the game. 

 

I understand finding good leaders is always a challenge, however, I think that's kind of a mandate for this game to succeed. Crap leaders make for crap gameplay...and that's just not a great equation for a game that revolves around teamwork/good leading. 
 

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Valdr   
7 minutes ago, UniversalRemonster said:

 

Well, it certainly seems like a MilSim type game.

 

Some of it is just semantics, but a milsim like ARMA for instance goes to great lengths to really simulate all the tiny details like exact bullet physics, whereas Squad has massive drop on marksman rifles because it is a realistic shooter that also takes game balance into consideration. I guess you could maybe put it into the "tactical shooter" genre, but I feel like that is a label traditionally for infantry-only games. Squad is somewhat unique in this regard.

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Melbo   

Server plug in that requires a certain amount of play time on that particular server before being able to select SL role. Have it running silently in the background for a few days/weeks to get the regulars of the server time logged then unleash it.

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first off, quit blaming the newbs that don't know any better for doing your job for you. Where do you guys expect the new people to learn to squad lead if not of the veteran's are stepping up to do it? Is there some magical squad leaders course that OWI made or some clan is running that I haven't heard about? 

 

The problem is us, that too many of us don't want to do the job, have negative connotations about the job yet have actually never done it. I remember when I first started playing PR, didn't really know what I was doing but no one else would squad lead so I stepped up to it. Even went to the forums to ask for advice. Got a lot of responses that were very encouraging. Also got a lot that amounted to "don't do it if you don't know how" to which I responded, if you're not going to then don't bitch when I step up and lead. And so, I say again to everyone here, don't shit on the new guys. They are just doing our jobs for us. Yes they suck at it, but that's our fault. 

 

The problem isn't the new players leading, the problem is that the beginning of every round plays out like a bunch of boys at a middle school dance that are all too shy to go ask the girls to dance with him. Step up, get out on the floor and lead. If you aren't going to do that then don't bitch about those that do. You are always free to make and lead your own squad at any time.

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Valdr   
47 minutes ago, PolishKruk said:

snip

 

How do you know they are all noobs, though? Just the other day I was playing Al Basrah and our SL decided to build a FOB at that southern bridge that runs east/west, the very last one you come to if you leave Insurgent main and go west. It was plainly clear based on the current conditions of the round that the better choice was for us to support the defense on Courtyard as they had a FOB in a better position. I could tell the SL was very set on his plan of putting a FOB there, so I took my AT kit and started drifting toward courtyard because I could hear a humvee over there. When the SL asked why I was moving away, I told him that the fob being built was not going to have any value and that I was going to attempt to actually hold objectives and do things which will win us the match. His response was "This is the meta for this map, it has been forever, you don't know anything about how to play the map." After 5-10 more minutes of building constructions and MGs and such, he finally orders the rest of the Squad to courtyard. We push them off it, continue onward, win the round, and not a single person spawns at the FOB he built.

 

Long story short: there are plenty of "experienced" SLs who think they know a lot more than they do. If they are a new SL and they are willing to learn, it's all gravy.

Edited by Valdr

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26 minutes ago, PolishKruk said:

first off, quit blaming the newbs that don't know any better for doing your job for you. Where do you guys expect the new people to learn to squad lead if not of the veteran's are stepping up to do it? Is there some magical squad leaders course that OWI made or some clan is running that I haven't heard about? 

 

The problem is us, that too many of us don't want to do the job, have negative connotations about the job yet have actually never done it. I remember when I first started playing PR, didn't really know what I was doing but no one else would squad lead so I stepped up to it. Even went to the forums to ask for advice. Got a lot of responses that were very encouraging. Also got a lot that amounted to "don't do it if you don't know how" to which I responded, if you're not going to then don't bitch when I step up and lead. And so, I say again to everyone here, don't shit on the new guys. They are just doing our jobs for us. Yes they suck at it, but that's our fault. 

 

The problem isn't the new players leading, the problem is that the beginning of every round plays out like a bunch of boys at a middle school dance that are all too shy to go ask the girls to dance with him. Step up, get out on the floor and lead. If you aren't going to do that then don't bitch about those that do. You are always free to make and lead your own squad at any time.

 

First of all...you're not being very encouraging. I tried to make it clear that I do lead. However, if it's either "lead or get wrecked 90% of SL's not knowing wtf is going on" then this game might not be what I thought. I fully expected there to be more proficient people leading (specifically because it was a game that revolved around teamwork). 

 

I expect people to learn not by "well, nobody else is going to do it", and instead by observing or reading guides. I guess that's my whole point. 

 

If you design a game around teamwork/leadership then you better offer incentive's or restrict players who will ruin that experience. My "bitching" is actually feedback from a new player who plays "tactical shooters" quite often. Newbs shouldn't have the option of shooting noob juice all over the rest of the team...or it should be heavily discouraged, specifically because this is a game that revolves around teamwork. 

 

You'd have a lot less shy middleschool boys if the ladies guaranteed a pants drop at the end. I ain't goin out there to do a bunch of work so my buddies can have a good time and I leave with nothin. 

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1 hour ago, PolishKruk said:

first off, quit blaming the newbs that don't know any better for doing your job for you. Where do you guys expect the new people to learn to squad lead if not of the veteran's are stepping up to do it? Is there some magical squad leaders course that OWI made or some clan is running that I haven't heard about? 

 

The problem is us, that too many of us don't want to do the job, have negative connotations about the job yet have actually never done it. I remember when I first started playing PR, didn't really know what I was doing but no one else would squad lead so I stepped up to it. Even went to the forums to ask for advice. Got a lot of responses that were very encouraging. Also got a lot that amounted to "don't do it if you don't know how" to which I responded, if you're not going to then don't bitch when I step up and lead. And so, I say again to everyone here, don't shit on the new guys. They are just doing our jobs for us. Yes they suck at it, but that's our fault. 

 

The problem isn't the new players leading, the problem is that the beginning of every round plays out like a bunch of boys at a middle school dance that are all too shy to go ask the girls to dance with him. Step up, get out on the floor and lead. If you aren't going to do that then don't bitch about those that do. You are always free to make and lead your own squad at any time.

I can totally agree with you. +1

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2 hours ago, Valdr said:

Long story short: there are plenty of "experienced" SLs who think they know a lot more than they do. If they are a new SL and they are willing to learn, it's all gravy.

I'm shocked you weren't kicked from the squad for running away with such a valuable kit. You're talking tactics, not leading. Everyone is going to have different tactics. Part of being a good SL is being able to read the map and employ the correct tactics for the situation and at the same time be able to cooperate and compromise and sometimes coerce the other SLs into what you consider the proper action.. You running off on your own was, however, not the correct response.

 

You are more than able to lead your own squad if you find the leadership abilities of others to be inferior.

2 hours ago, UniversalRemonster said:

 

First of all...you're not being very encouraging. I tried to make it clear that I do lead. However, if it's either "lead or get wrecked 90% of SL's not knowing wtf is going on" then this game might not be what I thought. I fully expected there to be more proficient people leading (specifically because it was a game that revolved around teamwork). 

 

I expect people to learn not by "well, nobody else is going to do it", and instead by observing or reading guides. I guess that's my whole point. 

 

If you design a game around teamwork/leadership then you better offer incentive's or restrict players who will ruin that experience. My "bitching" is actually feedback from a new player who plays "tactical shooters" quite often. Newbs shouldn't have the option of shooting noob juice all over the rest of the team...or it should be heavily discouraged, specifically because this is a game that revolves around teamwork. 

 

You'd have a lot less shy middleschool boys if the ladies guaranteed a pants drop at the end. I ain't goin out there to do a bunch of work so my buddies can have a good time and I leave with nothin. 

I'm not trying to be condescending towards you. I'm simply saying that Squad is a game, not some ultra competitive tournament with thousands of dollars on the line. We play it to have fun. You know what I find fun? Squad leading or watching the matches unfold while doing admin work. Rarely do I have fun in other roles so I don't play other roles. You know what makes Squad NOT fun? When there are no squad leaders and no one makes squads.You know what the newbs are doing? They're making squads so they can play the game and try to have fun. We shouldn't criticize for that. If you don't have fun in other people's squads then SL more, meet other players that you consider good at leading and only join their squads.

 

New people have the right to enjoy this game as much as those with hundreds of hours. If the only way for them to learn is by trying and failing then so be it. You don't like it? Teach more people how to SL better. Squad will ALWAYS want for more SLs. We can never have too many of them. Try to remember how you learned to lead and provide that information to newer players.

 

As for your last remark... Well if you aren't having fun as a SL then you are playing the wrong game. Sure it can be frustrating at times but I've never had a rush like leading a squad to overcome the odds. There are forty players per team right now. As a SL you are one of FIVE that gets to have a direct influence on how the match plays out. If that doesn't excite you than nothing here will.

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Valdr   
Just now, PolishKruk said:

I'm shocked you weren't kicked from the squad for running away with such a valuable kit. You're talking tactics, not leading. Everyone is going to have different tactics. Part of being a good SL is being able to read the map and employ the correct tactics for the situation and at the same time be able to cooperate and compromise and sometimes coerce the other SLs into what you consider the proper action.. You running off on your own was, however, not the correct response.

 

I am not talking a difference of tactics, I am talking basic knowledge of the battlefield. And I was not running off on my own, I was supporting other squads who were actually engaging enemies in territory that mattered. I am not going to sit and watch 9 guys in the middle of nowhere build sandbags for absolutely no reason, and your steadfast defense of terrible SLs is frankly disappointing.

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Just now, Valdr said:

 

I am not talking a difference of tactics, I am talking basic knowledge of the battlefield. And I was not running off on my own, I was supporting other squads who were actually engaging enemies in territory that mattered. I am not going to sit and watch 9 guys in the middle of nowhere build sandbags for absolutely no reason, and your steadfast defense of terrible SLs is frankly disappointing.

I never defended him. I said you should have been kicked or if you disagree so heartily against his ideas that you make your own squad and try to convince him of his error and show him how to do better. Lead, follow or get out of the damn way. You chose to get out of the way. Admirable but it does absolutely *** to solve the issues you find with the game.

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Valdr   

But suggesting I should be kicked for putting my team before one man's stupid strategy is a defense of that strategy, whether you choose to call it such or not. I'm not going to have someone else waste the valuable kit by listening to him. If he chose to kick me it would have been his choice and I would not have resorted to TKing or whining in chat like so many, but I will not be less useful than I can be.

Edited by Valdr

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10 minutes ago, Valdr said:

But suggesting I should be kicked for putting my team before one man's stupid strategy is a defense of that strategy, whether you choose to call it such or not.

Negative, merely referring to his authority as a SL.

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Valdr   
Just now, PolishKruk said:

Negative, merely referring to his authority as a SL.

 

And normally I would agree. In fact just today I had a match where some squaddies were totally ignoring SL orders and when one of them got an attitude and said "You're not the boss of me" I told him that the SL is in fact the boss, that's what SL means. However, they were ignoring orders that were in the best interest of the team simply because they did not like the idea of someone telling them what to do. Everything I do, I do for my team.

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4 hours ago, Melbo said:

Server plug in that requires a certain amount of play time on that particular server before being able to select SL role. Have it running silently in the background for a few days/weeks to get the regulars of the server time logged then unleash it.

Thats a horrible idea. Someone could have a decade of time spent squad leading on another server. Now if devs could make a plugin like you suggest that universal, then there you go!!!

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1 minute ago, Valdr said:

Everything I do, I do for my team.

How do you know? If I'm the SL and you're in my squad you only have a fraction of the tactical picture that I do. I may suggest a course of action for the squad that in your opinion may be total bs but due to my communication with fellow SLs may in fact be instrumental to the entire team's success.

 

At its base, Squad is extremely simple. Attack the orange objective and defend the purple one. Now, when players get involved with the toys we have the game can get infinitely more complex. As the complexity rises differing tactics come into direct confrontation with one another.

"Do we superFOB?"

"Do we rush?"

"Where do we place the next FOB?"

"How many vehicles should we take into the field?"

 

All of these questions arise along with many, many more and depending on who you are or how you've learned to play Squad or if you play PR they will all be answered in a different way. A newb SL has none of the answers to these questions. This is our chance to shape that person's tactical view of Squad to our own beliefs. If you see a bad idea happening, don't just say its bad and leave. Explain why its bad, explain what other options there are and take the moment to expand someone's knowledge. Because not only are you teaching that SL but you are also teaching seven other guys in that squad. If you yourself are squad leading you have an even better position because you can reach every SL on the team. You can provide advice and and help keep them focused on what you consider is important if they are lost. It doesn't take much. You dont have to get upset, or yell at anyone, just start the conversation. Squad is that game that will keep evolving with its gameplay as new assets and maps and factions join the fray. Hopefully its playerbase will continue to grow right along with it. But we must be willing to accept the new people in. We must be ready and willing to be apart of their mistakes and be there to show them why it failed and provide an alternative solution. Sure, you can yell at that terrible squad that didn't seem to do anything but if you can't provide them direction for the next round then all you've done is made it that much more likely that those players will quit Squad and not return.

 

Squad isn't hard, but it also isn't easy. Instead of expecting that everyone already knows exactly what to do, accept the idea that we must be ready and willing to help those that may lack the knowledge or experience or confidence. Lets bring people in and help them see how awesome Squad can be. Not throw up artificial barriers to gameplay because some noob ruined your match when you decided you didn't want to squad lead yourself.

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Melbo   
7 minutes ago, shawn7186 said:

Thats a horrible idea. Someone could have a decade of time spent squad leading on another server. Now if devs could make a plugin like you suggest that universal, then there you go!!!

 

Works fine on RO2/RS servers.

 

Attracts and keeps players on particular servers and creates a good community. Obviously the script/plugin wouldn't be done by OWI but written by the server owner.

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Valdr   
Just now, PolishKruk said:

Snip

 

I know simply because I am not a fool. I do not have merely a fraction, as I can see just as much of the map as the SL can. If there is a flag that must be taken or defended, and it already has a FOB to provide reinforcements for that fight, and that FOB is located in an area where it will continue to provide reinforcements even if the objective is entirely overrun, and the SL is building a FOB that much too far away to provide those reinforcements and is much too far away to attack the next flag and is much too far away to defend the previous flag, I can say with absolute certainty that is a useless FOB and will help precisely nobody do anything.

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1 hour ago, Melbo said:

 

Works fine on RO2/RS servers.

 

Attracts and keeps players on particular servers and creates a good community. Obviously the script/plugin wouldn't be done by OWI but written by the server owner.

Oh hush, this isnt RO2/RS. 

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