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Eldiablo1989

Is the game too casual (alternate game mode solution detailed in thread)

Revives and Damage System  

16 members have voted

  1. 1. Is it too lenient as it is?

    • Absolutely - it should be like real life, but a video game.
      1
    • Yes - a hardcore mode might be nice
      6
    • Somewhat - a couple of tweaks would suffice *please detail in reply
      2
    • No - keep it as it is
      6
    • Not at all - actually might not be forgiving enough cough*weenie hut jr's*cough
      1

Hi guys! I've played 37 hours of this game as well as playing project reality, and I have to say that this game is nice in quite a few areas, but also needs polishing.

 

One of the areas that, to me, is glaringly obvious, is the current death/medic/revive balance. I think its safe to assume that many people will agree with me that the system is a tad too forgiving right now, and could use a bit more thought.I'd also say that this is a very delicate subject as we are not just talking about simple realism here, we are talking about gameplay; That's what matters most. Now if realism and gameplay can be in harmony that would obviously be ideal but when push comes to shove, gameplay is key.

 

The facts: 80% of wounded soldiers don't die. 99% probably died because of headshots.

Spoiler

 

With some help from wikipedia we can get a vague idea of what a realistic figure of deaths to wounded look like. I will mention 4 of the most large wars America has been in and the added tally for all deaths (combat,sickness,other) combined and then match that against all wounded. This is certainly a broad overview and not a scholarly opinion.

 

Revolutionary war (war of independence): 25K dead, 25k wounded = 50% survival rate. 8k of those deaths are combat, so more like 66% for actual combat deaths.

WW1 204k dead, 320k wounded = 33% survival ratio. 52k of those deaths are combat deaths, so more like 85% survival rating

WW2 671k dead, 1,076k wounded = 38% survival ratio. 292k deaths are combat, so more like 73% survival

Vietnam 153k dead, 211k wounded = 28% survival ratio. 47k are combat deaths, so 78% ish survival rate.

AVERAGE = 263k dead, 408 wounded = 36% survival ratio. average 100k combat deaths, from 408k wounded is roughly 76% survival rating.

 

So if we are counting combat deaths rather than all other deaths you will see realistically the survival rate is quite high. The reason is that:
-Most deaths were from complications from injuries or non-combat related, such as being executed by an enemy, suicide, dying due to illness, or dying due to the terrain or some other freak death.

-modern medicine (as in hygenic incision surgery to remove bullets and other such things) came around the 1850's and started to reach its hayday around the 1950's after all the ww2 stats and practices came in.

-all the aforementioned wars are large scale events with triage centers and professional doctors not far from the front lines.

-the chance of a head shot was/is extremely small, and we can assume that most of the combat deaths are headshot related.

 

In a macro look at war we can see that instant death is unlikely, we can see that death over time is much more likely, and we can see that pure statistics, while interesting on paper, are not a real indicator of how things look in every battle, every instance.

 

 

 

The current situation: a appeasement of all as the expense of some: casual mode.

Spoiler

So as it is right now, the current statistics are that 100% of all people that are shot will be wounded, not insta-killed, that almost all of the wounded are revived at least once and able to continue as if nothing happened, and that as long as there are medics, a couple of hills, and some sandbags that everything will be hunky dory.

We also can see that medics can simply patch a guy and wave his hand over people for a few seconds that they'll be ok, as if nothing ever happened.

To sum it up:

-Quick revives

-Full health healing

-As long as you don't die 2 minutes after revive you can be revived an infinite amount of times.

 

now before we go further i'd like to review the pro's and con's on a purely gameplay perspective just to explain what works and what doesn't about the current system.

 

Pro's

-encourages people to revive fallen players instead of just respawning

-creates incentives to create FOB's and entrench yourselves to blast the enemy across the way doing the same.

-simulates a battle environment while still qualifying as a video game.

 

Con's

-discourages people who score headshots

-encourages people to spawn camp

-markedly departs from reality (.50 bmg's and direct rocket hits do not instakill)

-discourages raids on FOB's since the person with no FOB will certainly lose - unless VERY well coordinated

 

Proposed solution: "hard core mode" for those looking for more challenging, more tactical gameplay. LONG VERSION

Spoiler

So since we can see clearly that there is a situation that causes issues with a significant number (still waiting for the polls, assuming), lets explore the solution.

"Hard Core" mode, not a new concept to grand battle/war games, fosters a sense of reality mortality as opposed to the "standard" mode. It's reasonable to adopt a middle ground from "casual" play and ultra realism. If we went ultra realism then any wounded would be incapacitated for the rest of the match, just about any sniper bullet, rocket, grenade, or HMG would INSTANTLY KILL ALWAYS, and only a milsim nerd would want to play it. A VERY small group of people indeed.

So then, a HardCore mode is recommended that is a more difficult variation of casual gameplay

 

Here are core issues i would like to review and, if possible, resolve.

 

Revives:
Currently all players become wounded and never die.

Medic practically waves a wand and people are revived.

No ill effects of being revived.

No real lethality to the affair.

 

Damage:

Headshots don't kill instantly.

Direct hits from BMG and Rockets or impact grenades don't kill instantly.

One gun is about as good as the next in a straight up bullet exchange damage wise small-arms wise. excluding snipers and hmg's.

You cannot kill wounded opponents with bullets.

 

The solution:

 

The current health model is simple: 100 HP,  weapons do a set amount of damage, and as soon as a soldier is out of health he goes unconscious/incapacitated. This means that nothing can ever kill a soldier outright.  We've established that while this is usually the case, it isn't always.

There also is the system of soldiers being invincible when capacitated: this is because its INTERNATIONALLY ILLEGAL to kill a wounded enemy with intent. This is a good and moral reason, but this does not address lethality in combat at all; it gives a carte blanche excuse to never kill anyone.

Then when a solder is revived, the medic waves a magic wand and - presto! he's back on his feet, good as new. no revival should ever cause someone to go to 100%, NOR should it be as simple.

So then we need to revise the health system, the medic system, and the damage system to fit a more realistic model.

 

a.) Damage and Health

 

Simply put, a person should have "conscious health" and "vital health". So conscious health is what we have now, that will stay the same, but until that soldier completely falls to the ground - for about oh lets say 4 seconds - he can be damaged. So if you manage a lucky potshot from across the hill at someone you probably won't be able to kill him, but if you're say 10 meters you can unload on him and kill him; like real life.

 

Conscious health - 100% - the amount a soldier can take before being incapacitated.

Vital health - 200% (total of 300%) - the amount a soldier can withstand before dying completely.


Bleeding will then drain vital health by 1% per second - 3 minutes 20 seconds.  So lets assume it takes about 3 shots with a m4 to incapacitate someone, taking about 40% of health each shot: if that and nothing else happened a person would have 3 minutes of bleed out time, like it is now.  6 shots would leave him with a minute.  8 shots would kill him.

 

Head shots will do 400% damage. so that 40% turns into 160%. shoot him twice, he's dead.  Perhaps its a sniper rifle that does 100%? its now an insta kill weapon.

this makes slow and hard hitting guns like the g3 or the dragunov worthy weapons to inflict lethal kills in conflicts.

 

So any weapons that are able to take 300% health before you hit the ground are now insta-kill weapons. This would have to be limited to being directly hit by a rocket or standing on top of a grenade, a single headshot from a large caliber gun such as a sniper rifle or .50 bmg round,  or being run over by a tank or apc. Any other damage would be less than lethal unless totaling 300% health within 4 seconds time.

 

b.) Medics and Revives

 

Medics currently have it easy. no tourniquets, no surgery, no blood transfusions or plasma packs to worry about, nothing. And it should stay that way because a game that forced you to do that crap would suck; but hopefully with the tweaks above revives will be much more time sensitive, and sometimes impossible.

 

In addition to field bandages being required and the medical kit being used, a medic will now have to heal vital health. A person who is merely unconscious is much easier to treat than someone 30 seconds from death... this means a medic will now have to go around and stop the bleeding on everyone before even getting to treatment.

Sounds much harder doesn't it? it is, but as it is, its necessary to increase the difficulty.

 

And for those who have been revived, they get 2 "lives". This is an expansion of the insta-death 2 minute system; When you revive, you now come back with less conscious health. This means you will go down easier and your vision will be impaired. You can only be healed to 50% of your "conscious" health now if you are revived. There is nothing you can do about it- assuming you do not take any more damage, your health can be restored completely in 5 minutes, and thus, your vision, or a rate of 1% every 6 seconds... you still need to be healed by a medic, it won't regenerate like in call of duty.  If you go down again for a second time within this 5 minute window, you die.

No questions asked.

 

c.) Closing analysis

 

This system would have the following advantages and disadvantages:
 

Pro's:

Encourages more skill based gameplay - close combat prowess, raids, and good aim are now rewarded.

More realistic damage models - makes players more cautious

better immersion - medics now are more involved, riflemen try to kill not just incapacitate, rockets and grenades are more lethal, ect.

A well coordinated raid or FOB assault will now end earlier if you're doing your job right.

 

Con's:

More lethality means less chances - more ticket bleeding and a shorter game unless ticket limits are raised.

higher skill curve will piss off casual players

higher deaths mean less bunker building, and more assalts. being trapped in a fortress and bombarded by snipers, .50 cals, and rockets means being downed a lot more, for a lot longer, and possibly being killed outright.

 

These changes, with perhaps a tweak here or there, would ensure a highly competitive environment, more need for teamwork, and less room for mistakes. This would bring a more profound realism to the game without changing any of its core values, and would bring it more up to snuff with more realistic sim games such as ARMA for example.

 

 

Short summary of suggestions:


Headshots now do much more damage, and have a chance to kill - see long suggestion notes

Players now have "conscious health" (the current system), and "vital health", making it possible but difficult to "insta-kill" someone

Players can now be damage for 4 seconds after they go "unconcious". they then become immune to fire as they become incapacitated.

Medics now have to deal with a variety of medical situations as players now have lesser or worse conditions regulated by vital health. - see long suggestion notes

Being revived now is not a blank check. Reduced conscious health with a 5 minute "cool down"

 

this will please the hardcore players, but keep the game playable, while not making the game unrealistic in making it impossible to kill people.

 

Edited by Eldiablo1989

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3 hours ago, Eldiablo1989 said:

Headshots don't kill instantly.

Direct hits from BMG(erm: HMG ..?) and Rockets or impact grenades don't kill instantly.

really?! these should definitely be instant (un-revivable) kills

 

3 hours ago, Eldiablo1989 said:

You cannot kill wounded opponents with bullets.

downed? or still running around?

yeah tricksy one that. i'd like to be able to finish-off wounded enemies to force them to respawn, but on the other hand it means literally one person could wipe an entire squad by finishing off downed (revivable but incapacitated (helpless)) players, so prolly not so good on the Gameplay>Realism thing.

 

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So just to be clear - i know this is a placeholder system. BUT it has to be replaced with something... and it seems like the kickstarter description sounds like the right direction. However, certain damage should ALWAYS BE INSTANT DEATH.

I also think that allowing for a 5 second window to shoot at someone to kill them is reasonable. Being able to kill people while they're down is gameplay breaking, but if they're in the falling down state and you're unloading a magazine clip into them they should be dead, not just incapacitated. Just to be clear: a 5 second window from the time you incapacitate them to the time they hit the ground and stop moving, and then after the 5 seconds you are invulnerable to damage of any kind... like now. this is because if people are grenade spamming it gives downed players a hope. it may not be realistic to survive a grenade, but thats what the 5 second window is all about; giving a fair window of opportunity to kill someone, but not making a player vulnerable forever to all damage.

The thing is, if you're able to unload a barrage of bullets, hit someone with a rocket launcher round, or a headshot, they should be totally dead.

Now if this isn't good for most, then that's fine, thats what hard core mode is all about; a harder version of normal gameplay, more realistic.

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Every weapon will one hit someone to the head. Certain weapons deal so much damage they put you immediately into dead-dead instead of just downed. Killing downed enemies was scrapped for the same reason headshots don't cause dead-dead, Squad cohesion. We are trying to get people to work and play together. Forcing people to have to respawn all the time lowers cohesion and eventually will remove the need for medics. You can always try a SquadOps one life event.

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