Rhino118

US way too powerful now, please balance the AK a little better

95 posts in this topic

First off, I have to say, huge shout out to the Developers for such a great game thus far!

I have been playing Squad for a little over a year and I feel it is by far the best Sim that I have played as far as merging realism and fun.

Great job guys! I can't get enough.

 

I have a few suggestions to help the game

 

1) Make the AK's a little more competitive against the M4's

 

It feels to me that about 2 or 3 updates ago (past couple months) the US M4 now has too many advantages over the AK in this game and has just made it unrealistically too easy for any noob with an M4 to desecrate a decent skilled player with an AK.

It feels as though this game has given the RL advantages of the M4 to the M4, and has given the RL advantages of the AK 47 (double the grain (size of trajectory) 76% of the velocity) more knock down power also to the M4. Why is this? It is so bad that the game feels absolutely bias for the US to me.

 

Did you guys give the US mega armor or something?

 

The AK seems to have gotten more inaccurate, even when you take plenty of time for single shots while prone firing less than 1 time per second, your efforts are still worthless, then the US target, after 5 bullets go past him that should have ended him, turns while standing with way less time aiming, fires at about 3 rounds a second and hits 3 out of 4 and you're dead. Way too often that it gets old.

 

And it is not just the one on one, it shows, US has become noticeably the easier side to win on.

 

The AK is not inaccurate like the myth has it and the iron sights are not that bad either. Check out the video.

 

So, please make the AK a little more balanced with the M4, it has got a little ridiculous lately.

 

Now I do understand that the recovery time between shots is worse on the AK's because they do have more recoil, so with quick shooting the M4 should have a decent advantage, but then we should give at least the AK 47 it's advantage, and that is power, knock down power! And should still be just as accurate after waiting 1.0 to 1.5 seconds after firing the previous shot or something along those lines.

 

2) Allow all hand held guns to be fired while in the air.

 

No, I am not a frag whore jump and shoot unrealistic turd, but I do believe in realism, and making the weapons unable to shoot while the character is in the air is just retarded.

The correct way to simulate this instance is to have about 2 to 3 times the amount of recoil on the gun if it is fired while in the air, and go ahead, even give them a retarded amount of lift if firing full auto while falling. But it should still fire. Tac Ops (Tactical Operations) did this back in 2000. That game was built off of the Unreal 99 engine.

 

3) Give the AK 47 to all the Russians. Or let all the Russians chose between the 74 and the 47.

 

Why wouldn't you? The AK 47 was designed by a Russian, for Russia, yet they do not get the AK 47? WHAT???

 

4) Make all, or at least some, vehicles able to be taken and driven by enemy personal.

 

Why not, who does not know how to drive a truck? and why can't anyone hop on that enemies dirt bike? That is part of war.

 

5) Allow passengers to shoot out of vehicles

 

Especially open personal carriers. Make it hard to aim, and hard to hit, but still possible to do.

 

6) Pick up ammo from fallen allies with the same ammo type.

 

Or even share ammo, say if a teammate is on their last magazine, make it to where you could give him a magazine or two. Perhaps even give him your grenade after he has thrown his.

 

7) Drop your weapon for another.

 

I know, this might be a stretch for you guys, but again, I believe in realism. If you see a gun on the ground from a fallen person of any team, why can't you pick it up and fire it?

It is part of war and often happens in the military. I have had a vet tell me how he picked up an AK'47 while in service and kept it strapped on his back as back up whilst mainly using his M4.

Now I am not saying allow characters to be able to carry 2 main arms. But why not trade out? Yes, that might mean one team could end up with more snipers, that is more incentive to protect your snipers, and Light AT's for that matter. And perhaps make it to where you cannot get more ammo for it unless you pick up mags from like enemy bodies.

 

8) Make the pull out time for weapons faster.

 

Really guys, my Grandma can draw faster than these guys pulling out their guns in this game, and she is almost 90. Make the delay time shorter for when you click your primary or secondary, to when it is ready to fire. And if not for everyone, than perhaps for one class or two. Like the sub machine guns in the raider class etc. That could be a relevant advantage for the more inaccurate, close range guns, they could be lighter, more agile, and quicker to arm.

 

9) One glitch after this last update, I notice sometimes the words like "secure all the objectives in order" will stay on my screen for the duration even though I have all of the quick guide messages off in the settings. I have figured out though that if you go into the settings menu, turn them all on, hit apply settings, then turn them back off, hit apply settings again, it will then go away.

 

Again thank you Dev's for all the hard work!

I hope you consider these suggestions and please respond. I would like to hear feedback.

 

Thank you

[FATE]RHINO

Edited by Rhino118

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10) After having some RL experience shooting some Full Auto's including the AK 47 and the AK 74, I would recommend making the AK's sway less left to right while firing full auto. I remember when I shot both of those guns, no matter how tight you hold it, it shakes up and down around it's own center of gravity, but other than that, it was pretty easy to hold level and straight (straight meaning horizontally, left to right).

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I agree that the US seems too tanky. For instance, two or three body shots doesn't seem to drop them, and the AKs feel very inaccurate. What damage do the AKs do to the chest, and how much health does each character have?

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I have to say that the no-shoot jump feature is not only retarded, but also incosistent. For example, you cannot fire, while falling off 3 stairs, but if you continuously jump up a wooden trench wall and keep sliding down from it just after you touched it, you can fire no problem.
Perfectly realistic to aim at a person while you're peeling off bark with your boot, but not when effortlessly free falling. NOT.
Hopefully this all gets sorted with V10/11.

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On 3/25/2017 at 3:57 AM, Rhino118 said:

First off, I have to say, huge shout out to the Developers for such a great game thus far!

I have been playing Squad for a little over a year and I feel it is by far the best Sim that I have played as far as merging realism and fun.

Great job guys! I can't get enough.

 

I have a few suggestions to help the game

 

1) Make the AK's a little more competitive against the M4's

 

It feels to me that about 2 or 3 updates ago (past couple months) the US M4 now has too many advantages over the AK in this game and has just made it unrealistically too easy for any noob with an M4 to desecrate a decent skilled player with an AK.

It feels as though this game has given the RL advantages of the M4 to the M4, and has given the RL advantages of the AK 47 (double the grain (size of trajectory) 76% of the velocity) more knock down power also to the M4. Why is this? It is so bad that the game feels absolutely bias for the US to me.

 

Did you guys give the US mega armor or something?

 

The AK seems to have gotten more inaccurate, even when you take plenty of time for single shots while prone firing less than 1 time per second, your efforts are still worthless, then the US target, after 5 bullets go past him that should have ended him, turns while standing with way less time aiming, fires at about 3 rounds a second and hits 3 out of 4 and you're dead. Way too often that it gets old.

 

And it is not just the one on one, it shows, US has become noticeably the easier side to win on.

 

The AK is not inaccurate like the myth has it and the iron sights are not that bad either. Check out the video.

 

So, please make the AK a little more balanced with the M4, it has got a little ridiculous lately.

 

Now I do understand that the recovery time between shots is worse on the AK's because they do have more recoil, so with quick shooting the M4 should have a decent advantage, but then we should give at least the AK 47 it's advantage, and that is power, knock down power! And should still be just as accurate after waiting 1.0 to 1.5 seconds after firing the previous shot or something along those lines.

 

2) Allow all hand held guns to be fired while in the air.

 

No, I am not a frag whore jump and shoot unrealistic turd, but I do believe in realism, and making the weapons unable to shoot while the character is in the air is just retarded.

The correct way to simulate this instance is to have about 2 to 3 times the amount of recoil on the gun if it is fired while in the air, and go ahead, even give them a retarded amount of lift if firing full auto while falling. But it should still fire. Tac Ops (Tactical Operations) did this back in 2000. That game was built off of the Unreal 99 engine.

 

3) Give the AK 47 to all the Russians. Or let all the Russians chose between the 74 and the 47.

 

Why wouldn't you? The AK 47 was designed by a Russian, for Russia, yet they do not get the AK 47? WHAT???

 

4) Make all, or at least some, vehicles able to be taken and driven by enemy personal.

 

Why not, who does not know how to drive a truck? and why can't anyone hop on that enemies dirt bike? That is part of war.

 

5) Allow passengers to shoot out of vehicles

 

Especially open personal carriers. Make it hard to aim, and hard to hit, but still possible to do.

 

6) Pick up ammo from fallen allies with the same ammo type.

 

Or even share ammo, say if a teammate is on their last magazine, make it to where you could give him a magazine or two. Perhaps even give him your grenade after he has thrown his.

 

7) Drop your weapon for another.

 

I know, this might be a stretch for you guys, but again, I believe in realism. If you see a gun on the ground from a fallen person of any team, why can't you pick it up and fire it?

It is part of war and often happens in the military. I have had a vet tell me how he picked up an AK'47 while in service and kept it strapped on his back as back up whilst mainly using his M4.

Now I am not saying allow characters to be able to carry 2 main arms. But why not trade out? Yes, that might mean one team could end up with more snipers, that is more incentive to protect your snipers, and Light AT's for that matter. And perhaps make it to where you cannot get more ammo for it unless you pick up mags from like enemy bodies.

 

8) Make the pull out time for weapons faster.

 

Really guys, my Grandma can draw faster than these guys pulling out their guns in this game, and she is almost 90. Make the delay time shorter for when you click your primary or secondary, to when it is ready to fire. And if not for everyone, than perhaps for one class or two. Like the sub machine guns in the raider class etc. That could be a relevant advantage for the more inaccurate, close range guns, they could be lighter, more agile, and quicker to arm.

 

9) One glitch after this last update, I notice sometimes the words like "secure all the objectives in order" will stay on my screen for the duration even though I have all of the quick guide messages off in the settings. I have figured out though that if you go into the settings menu, turn them all on, hit apply settings, then turn them back off, hit apply settings again, it will then go away.

 

Again thank you Dev's for all the hard work!

I hope you consider these suggestions and please respond. I would like to hear feedback.

 

Thank you

[FATE]RHINO

Knock down power is a complete myth and has no basis for comparissons. Shot placement will always be the key regardless of the small arms being used...

I take it you have never used an AK in 7.62..the accuracy problems are not just because of its construction, but also the fact it's recoil is atrocious. The m4 should dominate it in most situations. That's why every modern army uses very small, fast rounds. Yes, it's a cost saving and weight saving measure but arguing against modern 5.56 munitions and comparing it to the antique 7.62 ak platform and crying OP is silly.

 

Of course the engagements are one sided...your not playing a game based on balance...irregular forces in terms of body count get absolute slaughtered in the real world when trying to face modern armies.

 

Umm the Russian forces don't use the AK in 7.62 widely anymore at all...hence the above explanation. 

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People don't jump around on the battlefield in the first place, so why let them SHOOT while jumping?

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4 hours ago, Catindabox said:

People don't jump around on the battlefield in the first place, so why let them SHOOT while jumping?


Not saying that, read my post again, it's all there.

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1 hour ago, Peerun said:


Not saying that, read my post again, it's all there.

I'm replying to the OP, not you

Edited by Catindabox

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I was thinking the AK was less accurate too but when I go to the firing range it seems every bit as accurate as the M4.  Watching some of my recordings, I've learned that the difference is that when stressed and required to aim quickly - you just can't beat a red dot sight.

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16 hours ago, Catindabox said:

People don't jump around on the battlefield in the first place, so why let them SHOOT while jumping?

Why not allow it? Make the game realistic. like I explained above, you can make the gun actions extreme while firing in the air.

9 hours ago, JJarrowGaming said:

I was thinking the AK was less accurate too but when I go to the firing range it seems every bit as accurate as the M4.  Watching some of my recordings, I've learned that the difference is that when stressed and required to aim quickly - you just can't beat a red dot sight.

Red dot sights can be equipped on just about any gun, Including AK's

 

I just bought a scope and a laser for my AK 47.

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8 minutes ago, Rhino118 said:

Why not allow it? Make the game realistic. like I explained above, you can make the gun actions extreme while firing in the air.

 

I see where you're coming from. However, even by that logic, if they were to make firing whilst jumping realistic, you should expect to not hit a damn thing. Sorta useless. 

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18 hours ago, Fritz45 said:

Knock down power is a complete myth and has no basis for comparissons. Shot placement will always be the key regardless of the small arms being used...

I take it you have never used an AK in 7.62..the accuracy problems are not just because of its construction, but also the fact it's recoil is atrocious. The m4 should dominate it in most situations. That's why every modern army uses very small, fast rounds. Yes, it's a cost saving and weight saving measure but arguing against modern 5.56 munitions and comparing it to the antique 7.62 ak platform and crying OP is silly.

 

Of course the engagements are one sided...your not playing a game based on balance...irregular forces in terms of body count get absolute slaughtered in the real world when trying to face modern armies.

 

Umm the Russian forces don't use the AK in 7.62 widely anymore at all...hence the above explanation. 

Oh my, Not sure where to even begin here. um....

 

"Knock down power is a complete myth and has no basis for comparissons."

Are you serious? The 7.62 shoots a projectile over twice the mass at around 78% the speed on average. That is a lot more energy, that is physics, not a myth! so,,...... You are wrong. Oh and you spelled comparisons wrong.


"Shot placement will always be the key regardless of the small arms being used"

Yes, I agree, but when a shot is placed on target, larger bullets (or masses with more energy) will do more damage (put more energy into target) plus a bigger object just simply displaces more material (like flesh).

 

"I take it you have never used an AK in 7.62.."

You take it wrong, because I own one, I have a DDI 47S AK 47, shoots 7.62x39, only put about 200 rounds through it yet, but before I bought it, I have fired a 7.62 AK 47 full auto, as well as a AK 74 full auto , as well as all these other full auto's, M16, glock pistol, MP5 A2, Uzi, Mac 10, M 14(308), Saw 249, only 10 rounds on the M2 50 Cal, Krinkov, Styr Aug rifle, and I think that is about it for the full auto's.

I also own a Savage Winchester 308, and a 9mm HK USP Compact.

 

"the accuracy problems are not just because of its construction, but also the fact it's recoil is atrocious."

Uh, NO, that first part you said "the accuracy problems are not just because of its construction" That is the myth part there! There absolutely no evidence, what so ever, that AK's are inaccurate! The video I shared proves it, and there are many more out there. It also proves at the same time that the iron sites are good as well. Capable of hitting a man from 500 yds (that is 1500 feet, in case your math is as bad as your physics), with iron sites. Thats pretty ****ING accurate if you ask me.

 

"but also the fact it's recoil is atrocious."

Yes that is why I included this in my post

"Now I do understand that the recovery time between shots is worse on the AK's because they do have more recoil, so with quick shooting the M4 should have a decent advantage, but then we should give at least the AK 47 it's advantage, and that is power, knock down power! And should still be just as accurate after waiting 1.0 to 1.5 seconds after firing the previous shot or something along those lines."

Just because the recoil is more, does not make the first shot inaccurate. Or every shot for that matter as long as you take a second to re aim.

 

 "Of course the engagements are one sided...your not playing a game based on balance...irregular forces in terms of body count get absolute slaughtered in the real world when trying to face modern armies."

Apparently we weren't modern enough against an AK equipped army in Vietnam, because America lost that war.

 

So, are you saying this game should not be balanced? That is really retarded, because most games are. Who wants to play a game where one side (country) always wins, trying hard or not, simply because it is no longer a challenge to beat any other side (country).

No the guns should not be perfectly balanced, what I am saying is that they were well balanced before, now you can see that the AK is balanced according to these anti-AK bullshit myths vs the "godly" M4. It is so off balance, it is not even realistic, it has been taken too far.

 

Is it not possible for the DEV's to make the AK's just as accurate when taking your time aiming, but quit a bit more inaccurate if trying to fire a second shot within a 1/2 to 1 second after firing the previous? Again, all gun's should have a recovery time (the time it takes after shooting, for the next shot to be again accurate) Make the M4 recovery 1 second to the AK 74's 1.5 seconds, to the AK 47's 1.8 seconds.

Makes sense to me.

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31 minutes ago, LMR Sahara said:

I see where you're coming from. However, even by that logic, if they were to make firing whilst jumping realistic, you should expect to not hit a damn thing. Sorta useless. 

For the most part, so say you are running, jump over a fence, as you are just stepping off the fence you see a contact point blank underneath you, but now you can't shoot at him aiming straight down because some person wrote computer code that say "nope, he heh, you cannot pull the trigger because you are falling (or jumping) off the fence.

With someone underneath you like that, you can very likely land some mid air shots. it can happen.

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39 minutes ago, LMR Sahara said:

I see where you're coming from. However, even by that logic, if they were to make firing whilst jumping realistic, you should expect to not hit a damn thing. Sorta useless. 

 

Yep, but a user choice none the same. Suppressive fire can also be effective in certain situations and you might just get lucky. Right now with your character unable to fire it just feels wrong. 

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11 minutes ago, Major Trouble said:

 

Yep, but a user choice none the same. Suppressive fire can also be effective in certain situations and you might just get lucky. Right now with your character unable to fire it just feels wrong. 

Agreed!

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7 hours ago, LMR Sahara said:

I see where you're coming from. However, even by that logic, if they were to make firing whilst jumping realistic, you should expect to not hit a damn thing. Sorta useless. 


Not really.
90% of my deaths while "jumping" are when dropping from a 0.5m prop and the enemy is 2m infront of me.

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24 minutes ago, Peerun said:


Not really.
90% of my deaths while "jumping" are when dropping from a 0.5m prop and the enemy is 2m infront of me.

 v10 you'll hopefully be vaulting that 0.5m prop and be unable to fire anyway.

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18 minutes ago, Major Trouble said:

 v10 you'll hopefully be vaulting that 0.5m prop and be unable to fire anyway.


Hopefully you will just be stepping over.

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18 hours ago, Rhino118 said:

Oh my, Not sure where to even begin here. um....

 

"Knock down power is a complete myth and has no basis for comparissons."

Are you serious? The 7.62 shoots a projectile over twice the mass at around 78% the speed on average. That is a lot more energy, that is physics, not a myth! so,,...... You are wrong. Oh and you spelled comparisons wrong.


"Shot placement will always be the key regardless of the small arms being used"

Yes, I agree, but when a shot is placed on target, larger bullets (or masses with more energy) will do more damage (put more energy into target) plus a bigger object just simply displaces more material (like flesh).

 

"I take it you have never used an AK in 7.62.."

You take it wrong, because I own one, I have a DDI 47S AK 47, shoots 7.62x39, only put about 200 rounds through it yet, but before I bought it, I have fired a 7.62 AK 47 full auto, as well as a AK 74 full auto , as well as all these other full auto's, M16, glock pistol, MP5 A2, Uzi, Mac 10, M 14(308), Saw 249, only 10 rounds on the M2 50 Cal, Krinkov, Styr Aug rifle, and I think that is about it for the full auto's.

I also own a Savage Winchester 308, and a 9mm HK USP Compact.

 

"the accuracy problems are not just because of its construction, but also the fact it's recoil is atrocious."

Uh, NO, that first part you said "the accuracy problems are not just because of its construction" That is the myth part there! There absolutely no evidence, what so ever, that AK's are inaccurate! The video I shared proves it, and there are many more out there. It also proves at the same time that the iron sites are good as well. Capable of hitting a man from 500 yds (that is 1500 feet, in case your math is as bad as your physics), with iron sites. Thats pretty ****ING accurate if you ask me.

 

"but also the fact it's recoil is atrocious."

Yes that is why I included this in my post

"Now I do understand that the recovery time between shots is worse on the AK's because they do have more recoil, so with quick shooting the M4 should have a decent advantage, but then we should give at least the AK 47 it's advantage, and that is power, knock down power! And should still be just as accurate after waiting 1.0 to 1.5 seconds after firing the previous shot or something along those lines."

Just because the recoil is more, does not make the first shot inaccurate. Or every shot for that matter as long as you take a second to re aim.

 

 "Of course the engagements are one sided...your not playing a game based on balance...irregular forces in terms of body count get absolute slaughtered in the real world when trying to face modern armies."

Apparently we weren't modern enough against an AK equipped army in Vietnam, because America lost that war.

 

So, are you saying this game should not be balanced? That is really retarded, because most games are. Who wants to play a game where one side (country) always wins, trying hard or not, simply because it is no longer a challenge to beat any other side (country).

No the guns should not be perfectly balanced, what I am saying is that they were well balanced before, now you can see that the AK is balanced according to these anti-AK bullshit myths vs the "godly" M4. It is so off balance, it is not even realistic, it has been taken too far.

 

Is it not possible for the DEV's to make the AK's just as accurate when taking your time aiming, but quit a bit more inaccurate if trying to fire a second shot within a 1/2 to 1 second after firing the previous? Again, all gun's should have a recovery time (the time it takes after shooting, for the next shot to be again accurate) Make the M4 recovery 1 second to the AK 74's 1.5 seconds, to the AK 47's 1.8 seconds.

Makes sense to me.

You obviously don't know anything about ballistics that much is evident...your wall of text means nothing. Vietnam? What the hell are you talking about? I mean, are you arguing or just spewing shit? Everything you're saying is either blatantly false or has no relevance. I mean, I don't care if you own an armory your lack of understanding of small arms munitions is laughable. One video? That's your proof? You think because something is bigger it's better? I mean, if your a simpleton sure. 

Edited by Fritz45

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1 hour ago, Fritz45 said:

You obviously don't know anything about ballistics that much is evident...your wall of text means nothing. Vietnam? What the hell are you talking about? I mean, are you arguing or just spewing shit? Everything you're saying is either blatantly false or has no relevance. I mean, I don't care if you own an armory your lack of understanding of small arms munitions is laughable. One video? That's your proof? You think because something is bigger it's better? I mean, if your a simpleton sure. 

I think you need to calm down, and go back and re-read all my posts. I never said make the AK's better than the M4's, Just don't make the M4 unrealisticallt godly in all ways possible over the AK's like it is now. An AK 47 can be very accurate if you take your time and know how to aim.

 

Yes it has more recoil, which does not affect that bullet fired, so if you take a little more time between shots to get your site back on target, it will still be accurate. Yes, the M4 will land more bullets on average firing full auto or fast repetitive single shots. So you should shoot an AK with larger intervals between shots and shorter bursts (well no bursts on the AK in my opinion, just single shots) opposed to the M4.

 

But I did state facts to prove my points in all cases and your best argument back is blasting me with 5th grade bully talk with no evidence to dispute my points stated.

Are you mad because I am right or just too lazy to take a few minutes to do some real research.

 

All I am trying to do is suggest for a more realistic balance in the game. And I have noticed lately a huge bias towards the US team, and I am not the only one who has noticed, by far!

 

At least make the AK a little more accurate again after holding still for a second before firing. The AK has become too crippled in the game.

 

But again, just my suggestions

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1 hour ago, Fritz45 said:

You obviously don't know anything about ballistics that much is evident...your wall of text means nothing. Vietnam? What the hell are you talking about? I mean, are you arguing or just spewing shit? Everything you're saying is either blatantly false or has no relevance. I mean, I don't care if you own an armory your lack of understanding of small arms munitions is laughable. One video? That's your proof? You think because something is bigger it's better? I mean, if your a simpleton sure. 

 

So enough about me, what kind of experience with arms have you had?

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Tone it down fellas, don't turn it into personal jabs at each other.

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12 hours ago, Rhino118 said:

 

 

So enough about me, what kind of experience with arms have you had?

 

 

I was an intern at a local PD and worked extensively in both shooting reconstruction which focuses heavily on ballistics and blood stain pattern analysis which also focuses on wound ballistics, specifically spatter patterns etc from small arms. I have examined countless cases dealing with firearms from suicides, homicides and officer-involved shootings. I've seen cases of individuals being shot with every caliber imaginable and nothing supports this theory on "bigger" means better when it comes to small arms. What I do know is when a 5.56 fragments let alone yaws in a human being, it's a hell of a lot nastier than a 7.62 cavity. Is the 7.62 deadly? Yes, absolutely, but it's an antique round that is fat, slow and has one admirable feature which is penetration. It's the exact reason why PD's and the FBI have gone back to the 9mm, advances in small arms munitions has made larger rounds pointless for general use as smaller rounds with less recoil yet the same damage potential are available. This includes the US army in the m855a1 program which specifically targetted issues at the original m855 green tip that was designed to penetrate soviet era flak jackets and steel helmets... NOT for it's ability to yaw. Countless people have done ballistic tests on the new round and it's easily the deadliest 5.56 being used in any army to date. So yes, please keep assuming bigger mean better. Maybe the bad guys will listen, a plus from where I'm standing.

And yes, I own and have shot just as many firearms as yourself.

 

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