Peerun

Serious balance problem

73 posts in this topic

Weapon off-axis when walking(ADS) - 1
Weapon off-axis after walking - 1
Weapon off-axis after sprinting - 0

In other words, it's better to sprint into a walking enemy than to walk into a sprinting enemy. 

Weapon sway without stamina - 1
Weapon sway without health - 0

In other words, it's better to be without health, than to be without stamina.
To be honest, I don't see why stamina should be tied to gun mechanics at all, especially when it's so limited

I am wondering, is OWI aware of these particular issues? Seems to me that they probably are.
So, if that's the case, can we expect fixes any time before V10-11 along with the animation overhaul OR even sooner, perhaps in one of the 9.x.x versions?

I didn't come up with any specific solutions for these problems, but overall, I feel like the game should reward being slow and deliberate where one would be expected to be slow and deliberate and on the other hand reward being fast where one would be expected to.

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Hopefully, but it sucks that we are stuck with these until then.
It seems an easy thing to fix, too. 

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I'd add a multiplier to sway after sprinting for a short period, but leave stamina based sway in. As for health, they have other penalties in the works I think but a sway multiplier could be a good way of going about it in the meantime.

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I agree, after playing this game for over 1000 hrs things are different, in my opinion for the worst, stamina sucks, I feel like I am running through mud all the time an it takes forever to get anywhere in a hurry, plus weapon sway is all over the place and some of the tree collision on maps are making it very difficult to get around.

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On 3/14/2017 at 9:15 PM, Arduras said:

 

I'd add a multiplier to sway after sprinting

 

Yep. Also right now sway is to strong like your charater is an epileptic. I suggest redusce it to 50% and add another layer of sway which will rotate the gun in its local space for 3 seconds after long movements, so you can't immidietly shoot exactly where you aming after running (right now sway moving your cursor but the aim is perfectly straight). PR is mimic that with this little indicator:

pic.jpg

 

Here is the picture to illustrate what I mean when saying rotate the gun in its local space for 3 seconds:

%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%

 

This will reduce running and gunning significantly.

This will also increase the importance of collimator optics, cause this is what its made for.

 

Why? Because people which stays still should have an advantage over those who run at them, especially at the distance.

Edited by FishMan

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5 minutes ago, FishMan said:

Yep. Also right now sway is to strong like your charater is an epileptic. I suggest redusce it to 50% and add another layer of sway which will rotate the gun in its local space for 3 seconds after long movements, so you can't immidietly shoot exactly where you aming after running (right now sway moving your cursor but the aim is perfectly straight). PR was mimic that with this little indicator:

pic.jpg

 

Here is the picture to illustrate what I mean when saying rotate the gun in its local space for 3 seconds:

%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%

 

This will reduce running and gunning significantly.

This will also increase the importance of collimator optics, cause this is what its made for.

 

I would also like to see this kind of stuff + many others that have already been suggested to make the game more in-depth and interesting instead of very vanilla and boring run and gun we more or less have now.

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Just now, banOkay said:

I would also like to see this kind of stuff + many others that have already been suggested to make the game more in-depth and interesting instead of very vanilla and boring run and gun we more or less have now.

 

Did I really live to see this? I was telling stuff like this from the first days when game has come to early access. And people was telling me that Iam wrong.

Edited by FishMan

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I don't like the idea of iron sight alignment. It looks cool, advanced and obvious, but...

 

How do you imagine this mechanics in terms of controls? You need to be able tp adjust and move aim simultaneously, otherwise Squad firefights will be as dynamic as XVII century firefights.

 

Iron sights alignment is the thing which our body and mind perform on almost subconscious level.

 

Just look at the M4 aperture sight. How are you going to place a front sight right in the center aperture? It would be almost impossible in game, though our body and mind make it easily in a couple of seconds.

 

About red dot sights: there is almost no difference in aiming speed for trained shooter between iron sights and red dots. In fact, the greatest benefit of red dots is comfortable low-light performance.

 

As we don't use separate buttons for both legs to make a step, let's not make a separate system for such essential activities for trained rifleman as iron sights aiming.

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16 hours ago, Rick said:

mud all the time

By the way. The feature that reducing player speed while he is running on inclined surfaces work very badly, cause there is no difference in which direction you moving.

And the problem is that almost 90% of the landscape is inclined surfaces. What is the reason why you feel like you stuck in mud, like in dreams where you cant run. You just never get 100% of the running speed (which is really slow even without any penalty) because you standing on inclined surface.

 

Right now jogging and running sprinting feels the same.

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27 minutes ago, ZiGreen said:

How do you imagine this mechanics in terms of controls? You need to be able tp adjust and move aim simultaneously, otherwise Squad firefights will be as dynamic as XVII century firefights.

You understand everything incorrect. Again.

 

There is no way to control this and you don't have to. It just something what will prevent you to have all of your 100% accuracy from the start. If you want all of your accuracy - this mean that you have to wait 3 seconds, you still will be able to open fire without any waiting and hit the target, the difference is that you wouldn't have all your 100% accuracy from the start. It just a mechanics to prevent people kill each other immediately after they spot each other like in vanilla shooters. And it will be only for 3 seconds. After that time the aim will align perfectly again. In close range it will not do any big difference, but in long range it will change gameplay very significantly.

 

So at long distances it will be very hard to instantly kill people imminently after you stop sprinting.

This one of the major problem of the game - the amount of skirmish and ridiculous amount of die-respawns. Short life - the biggest problem.

If you play PR you will notice that you live there much longer and this is nothing to do with skill it just the different conditions.

 

If you think that I'm wrong - go play PR, this mechanics works REALLY great there and it was one of the greatest addition in the game starting from v.1.0. First of all - your target should have a chance to escape and secondly player which shooting from set position should have an advantage over the person who jumps out of the corner.

Edited by FishMan

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Just now, FishMan said:

You understand everything incorrect. Again.

 

There is no way to control this and you don't have to. It just something what will prevent you to have all of your 100% accuracy from the start. If you want all of your accuracy - this mean that you have to wait 3 seconds, you still will be able to open fire without any waiting and hit the target, the difference is that you wouldn't have all your 100% accuracy from the start. It just a mechanics to prevent people kill each other imminently after they spot each other like in vanilla shooters. And it will be only for 3 seconds. After that time the aim will align perfectly again. In close range it will not do any big difference, but in long range it will change gameplay very significantly.

 

So at long distances it will be very hard to instantly kill people imminently after you stop sprinting.

This one of the major problem of the game - the amount of skirmish and ridiculous amount of die-respawns.

 

If you think that I'm wrong - go play PR, this mechanics works REALLY great there. First of all - your target should have a chance to escape and secondly player which shooting from set position should have an advantage over the person who jumps out of the corner.

 

Stop bringing this retarded outdated PR cancer in the modern shooters. Why do you even have an access to the Internet?

 

The simpliest, the most obvious solution of run&gun issue have been under your nose for months, but you still want to overload more or less decent FPS with dinosaur's crap.

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13 minutes ago, ZiGreen said:

Stop bringing this retarded outdated PR cancer in the modern shooters. Why do you even have an access to the Internet?

 

The simpliest, the most obvious solution of run&gun issue have been under your nose for months, but you still want to overload more or less decent FPS with dinosaur's crap.

Why you even use this dinosaur language? Think up your own! Start from scratch every time. We all should reinvent the bicycle every time.

 

13 minutes ago, ZiGreen said:

Why do you even have an access to the Internet?

Because no one asking your damn permission and you don't have an ability to ban me here as well.

 

12 minutes ago, ZiGreen said:

The simpliest, the most obvious solution of run&gun issue have been under your nose for months

Ok. May be you will tell us all what it is?

 

From kickstarter.

Quote

Our goal for Squad is to take 10 years worth of experience, testing and research with the original Project Reality formula and apply it to a modern stand-alone engine. We want nothing less than to reclaim the genre of tactical shooters for the creators, modders and players who have waited a generation to get back to intelligent, satisfying gameplay.

 

Edited by FishMan

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Shooting in Squad is fine with the exception of dolphin diving which will be fixed.

Good shooters should be rewarded for their skill. Deviation and other mechanics in the game like PR had makes the infantry gameplay worthless and it will kill off 50% of the playerbase.

Spend more practise aiming than flaming the game.

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6 minutes ago, Nordic said:

Deviation and other mechanics in the game like PR had makes the infantry gameplay worthless and it will kill off 50% of the playerbase.

Any proofs?

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6 minutes ago, FishMan said:

Because no one asking your damn permission and you don't have an ability to ban me here as well.

 

I will ban you WHENEVER it is possible.

 

9 minutes ago, FishMan said:

Ok. May be you will tell us all what it is?

 

No, you haven't deserved it.

2 minutes ago, FishMan said:

Any proofs?

 

Proof is the current popularity of PR, which can't attract new players not cause it has outdated graphics, but due to clunky and archaic mechanics

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9 minutes ago, Nordic said:

Shooting in Squad is fine with the exception of dolphin diving which will be fixed.

Good shooters should be rewarded for their skill. Deviation and other mechanics in the game like PR had makes the infantry gameplay worthless and it will kill off 50% of the playerbase.

Spend more practise aiming than flaming the game.

 

What FishMan proposed is hardly like deviation and could be implemented in a great way to slow down infantry engagements, which are over very fast atm. In PR you actually have to use your brain and ask yourself if it's worth to open fire. In Squad you should always shoot, if you don't, somebody spots you and you die instantly. I would hardly call sprinting, stopping, holding shift and 2 tapping anybody skill. It's also the opposite of intelligent, satisfying gameplay. Anybody can do it as long as they happen to get in the right position, it's boring.

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29 minutes ago, Nordic said:

Shooting in Squad is fine with the exception of dolphin diving which will be fixed.

Good shooters should be rewarded for their skill. Deviation and other mechanics in the game like PR had makes the infantry gameplay worthless and it will kill off 50% of the playerbase.

Spend more practise aiming than flaming the game.

The deviation and other systems in PR were far from perfect and held pro's & cons, but they created long and intense firefights. It opened a wide path of Squad and mechanized tactics due to the pacing it set...just in a really clunky way.

I think a lot of people want more than just point and shoot gun fights that end in 15 seconds. They're after the adrenaline filled 5 minute firefights, being pinned down, having vehicles/squads be a base of fire while other elements pushed flanks. The answer isn't in deviation even if people think it is, I can agree to that. Other systems we have currently, should be refined and expanded on(which they are from the looks of animation system with weapon handling, as well as dev feedback saying suppression changes are coming sometime etc)

Skill should be rewarded, but shouldn't be a huge focus. It influences individual play when focused on too much. The game is called "Squad" after all.

 

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1 hour ago, banOkay said:

What FishMan proposed is hardly like deviation and could be implemented in a great way to slow down infantry engagements, which are over very fast atm. In PR you actually have to use your brain and ask yourself if it's worth to open fire. In Squad you should always shoot, if you don't, somebody spots you and you die instantly. I would hardly call sprinting, stopping, holding shift and 2 tapping anybody skill. It's also the opposite of intelligent, satisfying gameplay. Anybody can do it as long as they happen to get in the right position, it's boring.

Exactly!

 

Quote

I think a lot of people want more than just point and shoot gun fights that end in 15 seconds. They're after the adrenaline filled 5 minute firefights, being pinned down, having vehicles/squads be a base of fire while other elements pushed flanks. The answer isn't in deviation even if people think it is, I can agree to that. Other systems we have currently, should be refined and expanded on(which they are from the looks of animation system with weapon handling, as well as dev feedback saying suppression changes are coming sometime etc)

 

Quote

Skill should be rewarded, but shouldn't be a huge focus. It influences individual play when focused on too much. The game is called "Squad" after all.

Exactly.

Tactics, communication and teamwork.

 

One man army should go.

 

When...

1) You see the enemy

2) You taking fire

Your reaction to this events should be:

1) Communicate with other team members, take good position.

2) Hide/Run/Take cover. Save your life basically.

 

Right now in Squad:

1) Immediately open fire;

2) Fearlessly watch where fire come from -> fire back to kill this impudent motherfu**er *battlefield 4 soundtrack*.

Edited by FishMan

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@ZiGreen

I don't even understand how you made the PR comparison.

PR has an unmoving sight with random aim.
Squad has a randomly moving sight with exact aim
What FishMan proposes is a sight moving lineary from a random direction with exact aim.

It's basically the same animation and mechanic as aiming down sights, the only difference being that after you've aimed down sights - where the direction is linear with the front sight moving down - you'd have a secondary aiming proccess, similar to the primary one, but on a micro scale and with a random direction of the front sights.
The gun is still accurate, but your judgement of whether it's aligned on target is not yet confirmed by the instrument.
If anything, this is completely unlike and in contrast with the PR mechanic, where your sight is on target and you still miss, because RNG. The only RNG in this calculation is your depth and angle perception.
You could compare it to shooting an HMG, currently in Squad, withou aiming down sights. You are still able to hit targets consistently, because there is no RNG, but you have to get a feel for the angle first.

I personally don't see this as a mechanic that'd prevent people from shooting and hitting after sprinting, but it'd definitely feel much more organic than the sway we have now, which I can only compare to trying to hold the stock of the rifle with your teeth and pull the trigger with your tongue.
 

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Whatever fix the "Battlefieldish" high paste gameplay will make me very happy. This game still feels to arcady and something has to be done.

Suggestions:
- Nerf rallypoints
- Nerf use of rockets
- Nerf the way you aim
- More penalty for shooting after sprinting

I like the previous suggestions in this thread , something in that direction would be good.



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14 minutes ago, farna said:

- Nerf rallypoints
- Nerf use of rockets
- Nerf the way you aim

 

Instead of nerf we can directly use nerf gun

cs18-PIC.jpg

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I think just give the gun wieght, or mass, to make physics if aiming more real.  No RND aim needed.  But how do you give objects and guns weight in the game world without introducing a random function?  Vehicles have mud, hill, mass, physics right, it has mass....can this be applied to guns?  For real aiming purposes? Can you just have a number function for mass of gun from say zero to ten to give max or no weight to gun, to have certain guns that are bigger have more mass than say a pistol?  Is this a viable way?

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