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Zylfrax791

Gameplay Restrictions

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Several servers now are imposing gameplay restrictions based on the amount of people on their server. Typically they specify something like it must be 15 vs. 15 before the "real game" starts and also you must fight over a specific objective like Palace or Mosque and not mess with the enemy FOB. The excuse typically given is that it somehow increases the player count and populates the server. My question is the official Gamer Server Administration Guidelines fails to mention anything about the imposition of these "extra" rules so I'm wondering if we could get an official decision on this and have it added to the guidelines please?

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Server admins are free to do as they please in regards to building their servers, fostering community attitudes, and attempting to populate their servers. I see no issue at all with making smaller "game modes" like this for smaller groups of people to play.

We won't however be adding every single minute detail as an addition to the server guidelines. As long as the servers are staying within the guidelines we have laid out, they are free to remain mostly autonomous. The development team does not need to intervene and cover every small detail of the server management.

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10 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Several servers now are imposing gameplay restrictions based on the amount of people on their server. Typically they specify something like it must be 15 vs. 15 before the "real game" starts and also you must fight over a specific objective like Palace or Mosque and not mess with the enemy FOB. The excuse typically given is that it somehow increases the player count and populates the server. My question is the official Gamer Server Administration Guidelines fails to mention anything about the imposition of these "extra" rules so I'm wondering if we could get an official decision on this and have it added to the guidelines please?

We use that always,as it helps people stay on the server,by keeping fobs up and fighting only over one objective. Thats until 18vs18 or 20vs20. 

NO usage of IFV vehicles also. THis way you promote fighting and less downed time,that keeps those players on server until it others join

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On 2/25/2017 at 9:48 PM, Odin said:

Server admins are free to do as they please in regards to building their servers, fostering community attitudes, and attempting to populate their servers. I see no issue at all with making smaller "game modes" like this for smaller groups of people to play.

We won't however be adding every single minute detail as an addition to the server guidelines. As long as the servers are staying within the guidelines we have laid out, they are free to remain mostly autonomous. The development team does not need to intervene and cover every small detail of the server management.

Logically then if you don't add exclusions for a single minute detail in the server guidelines then said activity is well within the parameters of gameplay and fully permitted in my mind short of glitching then right? For example, setting up a roadblock on the bridge by the American main on Fools Road or one at the bottom of the steep hill by Russian main in Kohat Toi and dropping two more repair stations and shooting rocket artillery from Insurgent main should be considered part of the gameplay right because you guys designed the game to permit that right? I mean this game rewards people for being creative and thinking up new strategies so players should be allowed to come up with tactics on their own and not be restricted by server rules. My feeling are any gameplay not restricted by internal mechanisms inside the game should be permitted gameplay regardless of arbitrary rules imposed by servers. Don't want people using vehicles below 15 per team then restrict it inside the game then. Don't want people shooting rockets from Insurgent main then restrict that internally. The OWI official position should be that servers can't restrict gameplay other than banning & kicking for TK's & asset destruction.

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15 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

 The OWI official position should be that servers can't restrict gameplay other than banning & kicking for TK's & asset destruction.

 

And why are you trying to dictate what our official position should be? Unless these servers are drastically modifying the game then we aren't going to intervene. They are allowed to create events and engage the community in ways that they see fit. Especially in cases like this where it is a small group trying to pop a server just messing around until they get enough together to really start a large scale game. If you don't like that, change to a different server? We aren't going to step in over every little minute change that a server admin makes in an attempt to make things interesting or exciting. 


And as you know the server guidelines change/evolve as the game changes. There will be changes coming soon concerning several things, but nothing that will directly impact server admins trying to actively keep the game fun and interesting on a server. 

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On 2/26/2017 at 5:40 AM, Zylfrax791 said:

Several servers now are imposing gameplay restrictions based on the amount of people on their server. Typically they specify something like it must be 15 vs. 15 before the "real game" starts and also you must fight over a specific objective like Palace or Mosque and not mess with the enemy FOB. The excuse typically given is that it somehow increases the player count and populates the server. My question is the official Gamer Server Administration Guidelines fails to mention anything about the imposition of these "extra" rules so I'm wondering if we could get an official decision on this and have it added to the guidelines please?

Just out of curiosity, would you really enjoy playing on a low population server without these rules? Do you really enjoy digging that FOB out so much more rather than being in active combat? I mean, the thinking simply is from many server admins that while the server is low populated they want to keep people active and fighting as much as possible. Because it really isn't very exciting to hunt for FOBs or Rally Points or objectives if they aren't defended because there aren't enough players on the server. Really now. Think about it. 

Do you enjoy more... Holding right click on an inanimate object for a minute and capturing flags that don't have anyone on them = running around an area without enemies to WIN the match quickly? 

Or do you enjoy having a small, continuous firefight? Really now. Think about it. 

If you do choose the option 1 I applaud you. But I'm sorry good sir that'd put you in the minority as to how people want to spend their time in a game. 

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Logically then if you don't add exclusions for a single minute detail in the server guidelines then said activity is well within the parameters of gameplay and fully permitted in my mind short of glitching then right? For example, setting up a roadblock on the bridge by the American main on Fools Road or one at the bottom of the steep hill by Russian main in Kohat Toi and dropping two more repair stations and shooting rocket artillery from Insurgent main should be considered part of the gameplay right because you guys designed the game to permit that right? I mean this game rewards people for being creative and thinking up new strategies so players should be allowed to come up with tactics on their own and not be restricted by server rules. My feeling are any gameplay not restricted by internal mechanisms inside the game should be permitted gameplay regardless of arbitrary rules imposed by servers. Don't want people using vehicles below 15 per team then restrict it inside the game then. Don't want people shooting rockets from Insurgent main then restrict that internally. The OWI official position should be that servers can't restrict gameplay other than banning & kicking for TK's & asset destruction.



Your logic and argument defeats itself. You say it is bad to set up "arbitrary rules" that limit what the limitations of the game and engine currently permit, basically saying, "if it can be done, it should be done", yet you arbitrarily limit the use of "glitches"? That is a highly inconsistent and self defeating argument.

By your own definition glitches aren't glitches because the devs haven't stopped them. By your own reasoning, team killing for the sake of team killing is permissible simply because the devs haven't turned off friendly fire. By your own reasoning, because the devs haven't blocked third party communications like TeamSpeak, ghosting is fully acceptable. By your own reasoning, destroying friendly vehicles for whatever reason one could conjure is acceptable because the devs haven't stopped it.

Also, you asked for "an official decision on this" in your original post. Odin has given a decision on this, and it doesn't get much more official than Odin. Yet you argue.

All of what you have had to say is very absurd and irrational.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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50 minutes ago, asta85 said:

 


Your logic and argument defeats itself. You say it is bad to set up "arbitrary rules" that limit what the limitations of the game and engine currently permit, basically saying, "if it can be done, it should be done", yet you arbitrarily limit the use of "glitches"? That is a highly inconsistent and self defeating argument.


By your own definition glitches aren't glitches because the devs haven't stopped them. By your own reasoning, team killing for the sake of team killing is permissible simply because the devs haven't turned off friendly fire. By your own reasoning, because the devs haven't blocked third party communications like TeamSpeak, ghosting is fully acceptable. By your own reasoning, destroying friendly vehicles for whatever reason one could conjure is acceptable because the devs haven't stopped it.

Also, you asked for "an official decision on this" in your original post. Odin has given a decision on this, and it doesn't get much more official than Odin. Yet you argue.

All of what you have had to say is very absurd and irrational.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

1. "Glitches" by definition are mistakes that get fixed in updates when brought to the devs attention. I can think of numerous ones. Go read each patch notes if you need validation of that.

 

2. Your inference where you compare/contrast my point and try to apply it to intentional TK's is inherently illogical. Even 5 year olds playing SpongeBob realize intentionally killing friendlies in a video game is wrong. Nevermind the fact that when you do it in Squad you get a warning message in caps with an exclamation point. So logically the game itself is programmed to warn you and most likely in a future patch there could be ramifications like a 5 minute time out period. The same would go for intentional asset destruction.

 

3. You do bring up a valid point regarding 3rd party communication apps because this is where the majority of clan pubstomp metagaming is occurring however there is no practical way to ever stop that from within the game itself.

 

4. "Arguing" lmfao... This game is a work in progress and the forum is here to discuss the game. I'm polite and don't use profanity or degrade people so I'm just voicing my opinion. And face it, it's just a video game so if servers want to stifle fun gameplay with all kinds of arbitrary rules then there's always another server to go to. 

 

 

 

 

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I really don't understand what you don't like about this... Would you rather be constantly running all over the entire map until the server empties out completely? Because unless it's an INF map, that's really the only other option here. You're not going to populate a server if all you're doing is running around trying to find enemies. People will just leave and find another server where they might actually see an enemy at some stage.

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I would REALLY  like to see YOU populate the server to 80 people with only few people, the whole map and every objective capable and no fobs.

 

What a LOL.

 

You got to understand when people enter the game and they see 10 people on opposing side the only thing keeping them in is. An active fob, a rally, a good SL and an objective where tight fight happens.

 

While I agree that is not where squad shines. Squad should be played out to its max on the whole map with endless solutions and decisions. But the previous is needed to populate the server/prevent people from leaving.

 

If you didn't like that you should definitely avoid servers that forbid rushing flags and pushing the enemy to main base. They can be as ridiculous as almost not allowing you to play together with your mates and using rally points.

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Mosque FOB Wars FTW

Big shout to all the seeders out there - Servers are dead without you...

B|

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On 4/20/2017 at 4:40 PM, Rainmaker said:

I would REALLY  like to see YOU populate the server to 80 people with only few people, the whole map and every objective capable and no fobs.

 

What a LOL.

 

You got to understand when people enter the game and they see 10 people on opposing side the only thing keeping them in is. An active fob, a rally, a good SL and an objective where tight fight happens.

 

While I agree that is not where squad shines. Squad should be played out to its max on the whole map with endless solutions and decisions. But the previous is needed to populate the server/prevent people from leaving.

 

If you didn't like that you should definitely avoid servers that forbid rushing flags and pushing the enemy to main base. They can be as ridiculous as almost not allowing you to play together with your mates and using rally points.

Interesting. A few nights ago I was on the 2fjg Al Basra only server and my team (Americans) played the entire round without a single FOB and won. I was really quite surprised as the server was completely full. I think the idea of trying to populate a particular server is a myth. People just naturally gravitate towards a familiar name like Thunderdome, Legacy or 2fjg.

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1 hour ago, Zylfrax791 said:

People just naturally gravitate towards a familiar name like Thunderdome, Legacy or 2fjg.

 

How do you think those names became "familiar"?

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1 hour ago, Psyrus said:

 

How do you think those names became "familiar"?

I think thats a question a lot of people paying big money every month for empty servers are asking as well.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

I think thats a question a lot of people paying big money every month for empty servers are asking as well.

 

Pretty sure that it's this: they used their clan members/founding members to seed the servers, kept strict gameplay standards and thus built a recurring playerbase. 

 

Players go where the other players are, so if you have seeders on your server there is a much higher likelihood of having it become fully populated. I would ask this hypothetical... if for some reason there were only two servers, one was "Thunderdome" and another was "Psyrus' unknown server", and the player counts are as follows:

 

Thunderdome: 0/80

Psyrus' unknown server: 20/80

 

Which of the two would you join?

Edited by Psyrus
tempered language

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

I think the idea of trying to populate a particular server is a myth. People just naturally gravitate towards a familiar name like Thunderdome, Legacy or 2fjg.

 

Not at all. In the Discord servers for many Australian servers, it's not uncommon for people to say "hey, we're seeding our server get on here". On the Discord servers the clan members might agree to play in a certain way, but to ensure that this temporary gameplay isn't messed up by others it's inserted into server rules. All in all, servers do this seeding and low player count rules to make the game more fun. It's better to have a full server, and in order to get there why not have some fun along the way?

Edited by HaafuGee
it's*

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5 minutes ago, HaafuGee said:

 

Not at all. In the Discord servers for many Australian servers, it's not uncommon for people to say "hey, we're seeding our server get on here". On the Discord servers the clan members might agree to play in a certain way, but to ensure that this temporary gameplay isn't messed up by others its inserted into server rules. All in all, servers do this seeding and low player count rules to make the game more fun. It's better to have a full server, and in order to get there why not have some fun along the way?

My original point which somehow got lost along the way is I feel the game should be played exactly like it is from the developer in any way, shape or form a person feels like playing without the imposition of accessory rule sets but within the OWI server guidelines.

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15 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

My original point which somehow got lost along the way is I feel the game should be played exactly like it is from the developer in any way, shape or form a person feels like playing without the imposition of accessory rule sets but within the OWI server guidelines.

 

Yeah, and I disagree that this should be the case. The server guidelines in terms of game play is "~ Admins should not use any admin commands to alter the default game play. This includes bypassing the weapon limits and placement limits". I think the key here is "admin commands", which could be used to abuse the system. Considering we're in alpha, it's reasonable that OWI would wish to retain the core, coded game play mechanics.

 

On 4/20/2017 at 0:54 AM, Zylfrax791 said:

... this game rewards people for being creative and thinking up new strategies so players should be allowed to come up with tactics on their own and not be restricted by server rules. My feeling are any gameplay not restricted by internal mechanisms inside the game should be permitted gameplay regardless of arbitrary rules imposed by servers. ...

 

There's a clear distinction here between fundamental mechanics of the game and the meta that players use. The key is that some metas are okay for some people, and not okay for others. The big one is rushing first cap. Some people think that this can, from the first 5 minutes of the game, make the rest of the 30+ minutes bad enough to warrant its limitation. Others, such as yourself, think that the mere fact that it's possible means that it should be allowed. The simplest and most effective solution to this is to allow server communities to decide when to disallow certain metas. Serious clan servers want access to the dirtiest tactics they can get - sure do that. General player oriented servers want to ensure a fun experience for everyone regardless of clan involvement and skill level - that's fine too.

 

The onus shouldn't be on OWI to decide which side is "right" and then alter the game to make everyone adhere to that. Even more so when we're talking about a game as open ended as Squad. We're presented with a set of mechanics and yes, we use them how we choose to use them. But, as communities, we can also come to agreements about how we don't use them.

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9 hours ago, HaafuGee said:

The onus shouldn't be on OWI to decide which side is "right" and then alter the game to make everyone adhere to that.

The trouble with your logic is that on many levels OWI has already decided what is right and wrong in the game and continues to change and improve it. For example, you TK somebody you get a nag alert on the screen telling you that you did a bad thing. Anything that isn't prohibited by the game itself should be permitted until its deemed by the developers to be an exploit or glitch and patched.

 

 

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The problem in your logic is you are going on the precedent that the game is/should be working as a finished game would work. That just isn't the case. The flaws of the game are present because of its status as an alpha game. Just because you CAN team-kill 7 people in a game before being autokicked doesn't mean you should or should be able to..It doesn't mean a server admin should have to tolerate it, either. No warning comes up when you blow up friendly vehicles. So because that is neither an exploit/glitch it should be allowed? I think just because you have an issue with how server admins run their server doesn't mean the devs need to tailor make the mechanics of the game to restrict every aspect of the game that you don't particularly agree with.... 

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I think if a community decides to run a round a certain way, then their admins/mods decide and it happens - and thats that.

 

It's not my thing, outside of an organised event but I can respect it, I just go somewhere else.

 

From memory I got kicked from Desmos Playground server a while back for not joining a Squad. There were no spaces on the existing Squads and I don't Squad lead for my sanity, so I messaged all saying something like  'i'm playing independent until a new Squad starts, don't worry i'm an experienced team player etc', I thought that will be fine - but it was not.

Apparently their server rules say you need to join a Squad, or make one. Which is perfectly reasonable. I hadn't read their rules of course, felt a little salty but quickly reminded myself it's not my server, community or rules so just join a Squad or if thats not possible then join another server.

I did go back to the server a while back and enjoyed 3 rounds, back to back of decent Squad - OMG with public players! So well done to them, it obviously works well and i'm the problem. Which is what my wife says all the time 'yes dear, it is you'.

If a community's server is not working out after a little time, and paying for it is an issue. Then they should stop doing that, problem fixed!

 

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, ZXD_SHO-SHIN said:

 

From memory I got kicked from Desmos Playground server a while back for not joining a Squad. There were no spaces on the existing Squads and I don't Squad lead for my sanity, so I messaged all saying something like  'i'm playing independent until a new Squad starts, don't worry i'm an experienced team player etc', I thought that will be fine - but it was not.

Apparently their server rules say you need to join a Squad, or make one. Which is perfectly reasonable. I hadn't read their rules of course, felt a little salty but quickly reminded myself it's not my server, community or rules so just join a Squad or if thats not possible then join another server.

 

Yeah, we use it more as an AFK deterrent than anything. I guess an admin didn't see your reply either. At least you appreciate we are just doing what works for us. We aren't out to get anybody or piss anybody off. And if some players think our server is too casual there are always others to play on. But I love that the pubs can out together a fun match 90% of the time and if we're all having fun isn't that all that matters?

 

As for the OP, it's a lot of work making and keeping a server popular. If he disagrees he is more than welcome to try it himself.

Edited by PolishKruk

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Yes understood and no worries at all, you guys run a very decent server.

 

 

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Hello Zylfax. As one of the server admins that implements some of those rules to help seed our servers. I thought I'd give you some insight as to why we have these rules, as well as give you a little background on my level of experience in seeding servers, so you know that I have built up a good level understanding over a long time on what it takes to populate a server.

 

Ok, so I'm one of the few euros in our clan, which has ment that for the past 5+ years, that our clan has been in existence, I have been the main person who has been seeding our servers.  I can tell you that seeding a server is not fun. It's very much a hard grind. Populating servers quickly killed my love of RO2, as well as all the other games that our clan has tried out. In fact, Squad is the first game that I've played where this hasn't happened. As of now I've 800+ hours invested in squad, and the vast majority of that has been spent sitting on our servers trying to populate them.

 

To give you an idea how time consuming this is. Since the free weekend, we've been running two servers. If both of our servers are empty when I come on to seed them, it will take me six hours to fill them(give or take half an hour). The same was true for RO2. Therefore, when you're seeding a server, you're always looking at what helps/hinders, the seeding of your servers. For instance, what's the best map/maps to run, as well as what rule sets do you need to implement to help keep players on the server.

 

Think about this. How many times would a scenario like this need to happen before you think about adding some rules on your server? You've invested two hours populating your server. You've managed to get the player base up to say 16 people. Then you watch in horror as they all disconnect one after another, because one team has just got rofl stomped back to their main base(when one team starts to lose heavily, you'll see them disconnect en masse, which in turn leads to the other side mass disconnecting as they now have no one to shoot at). Putting you right back to square one. This as you can imagine, is utterly soul destroying. Knowing that you've now got another two f****** hours to go to get it back up to 16 players again.

 

That's why, as I'm sure, you'll agree the most sensible thing to do, is to set up some rules to help prevent this from happening. We've found that it's a good idea to pick one objective to fight over. Which as has been described by other posters above me, locks players into one smaller area, letting them quickly find combat, keeping their interest and enjoyment in the game peaked, whilst the server fills up.  We also found out that it's a good idea to not allow fobs to be attacked, as you'll quickly see, that if one team looses its fob/rally and they then have to spawn at main base and work their way back to the objective, people will start to leave, which in turn leads to others leaving as the teams get more and more unbalanced. If you don't attack fobs, and the fobs are kept back a little bit from the objective. You shouldn't see large numbers of people leave. The server should slowly but surely fill up.

 

I hope this helped shed some light.

 

 

 

 

 

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The interest of the game developers, logically, is to protect the broad function of the game so that the product that they advertise is the product that the consumers receive and experience. Hence rules about gross exploitation of bugs, wanton abuse of administrator rights, etc...

 

The servers are PAID for by the server operators. Either they or their community of players hand over their real life earnings to keep the server going. Your moral outrage at those server operators making command decisions to subjectively improve the play experience of their community is curious. It should not be surprising that individual players are not entitled to kick down the figurative door of the server operator and dictate how their house should be arranged, and the recent trend of random non-contributing individuals attempting to weaponize the dev team in order to strongarm communities who have invested a great deal of time and treasure is troubling. It requires a wild entitlement complex and willful ignorance of why game servers are able to exist.

 

It is a credit to OWI that they continue to handle the issue with grace and allow servers to plot their own course, for the most part. 

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