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Free look & weapon rest position

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5 minutes ago, Drav said:

we cant pull the weapon closer than now, as the buttstock starts clipping into the shoulder

 

makes total sense, if you do not have realism in mind which seems not to be a goal in SQUAD at all, but that's OK :)

 

in my case i would leave it exactly as it is and even work even more on "attaching" the different weapons correctly to the body,

if the stock is pressed to your shoulder it's fact that there is no way to move the rifle closer to your face, i would never try to "fix" this.

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but tbh even with realism in mind.....i think being able to split 1st and 3p weapon views is better, as i think everyone agrees our sight pictures are a little too far away from what you see in real life, so its a case of, an unrealistic mechanism, to get a realistic result, which is what video games are all about

 

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FIXXXER, don't stress, things are getting better, not worse, with this change.

 

I assume there will be no ready position in 1st person because it will look jerky if you have your weapon down, then try to shoot right away and the gun snaps up instantly?

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56 minutes ago, FIXXXER said:

no offense i am just trying to understand how things are working!

also, not a long time ago true 1st person view was stated as a feature in SQUAD and now it's being abandoned, this is confusing...

 

actually i do not care if the game has true 1st person view as long as the 1st person animations look good/realistic and as long as

the the 3rd person animations do not completely deviate from the 1st person view like the 1st person view showing the player with a

pointed gun and the 3rd person view showing the weapon resting down ;)

Well basicly you can do a "true" 1st person with separation of 1 person view and 3rd person views, but the separation gives you more freedom, since the technology do draw some limitations what can be done with that true 1st person technique. Two main points that come to my mind is a: The controlling of the game is done with keyboard and not somesort of button in your forehead that reads your thoughts (maybe next 15..25 years) and the main input from the dameworld is through your eyes from 1 single flat display (we are one the transition now with all the oculus and so forth).

 

The keyboard makes in ackward to control your ingame character when the feature palette is pushed too wide (I think ArmA is a good example of the complexity gone too far). Ie. if you do want your character to lower or rise the weapon you would use keyboard (or mouse) input for that while in real life you just decide to lower or rise your gun, no reaching of that key. With separation of the views 1P/3P you can make it time dependable, your own view stays in high ready while the rest of the crew sees your character on low ready after X amount of seconds. Not optimal, but the best compromise with our current limited control technology.

 

What I spoke about the display is that the many problems comes from the camera attached in game to your right eye. You can not shake it around, or you can not have stereo camera. This creates all sorts of annoying things like that you need to peak further out of corners while you are leaning to left that while leaning to right. With separation of the 1P& 3P you can "attack" the camera between your eyes and adjust the 1P animation to still look like your weapon sights are aligned properly.

 

What comes to realism I think many do interpret that incorrectly as seeing mainly items and assets, but not the team wide dynamics and fluidity on moving around on the gameworld.

Edited by WARti0k0ne -BG-

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32 minutes ago, Drav said:

but tbh even with realism in mind.....i think being able to split 1st and 3p weapon views is better, as i think everyone agrees our sight pictures are a little too far away from what you see in real life, so its a case of, an unrealistic mechanism, to get a realistic result, which is what video games are all about

 

absolutely agree if it looks good being not too far away from "real life" i completely support where you are heading!

there are just so many FPS games that are doing this in an extreme wrong and strange way so my concerns are not reasonless

 

32 minutes ago, Mumble said:

FIXXXER, don't stress, things are getting better, not worse, with this change.

 

I assume there will be no ready position in 1st person because it will look jerky if you have your weapon down, then try to shoot right away and the gun snaps up instantly?

in this case the solution would be to add "mass" and proper animation to the weapon so it's not possible to snap it up instantly.

btw no stressing mate, just an exchange of thoughts!

 

28 minutes ago, Axton said:

Is this even the right subforum for this discussion?

maybe, maybe not, let's discuss! ;)

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18 minutes ago, FIXXXER said:

absolutely agree if it looks good being not too far away from "real life" i completely support where you are heading!

there are just so many FPS games that are doing this in an extreme wrong and strange way so my concerns are not reasonless

 

What game and how wrong are they? Im just curious.

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21 minutes ago, WARti0k0ne -BG- said:

Well basicly you can do a "true" 1st person with separation of 1 person view and 3rd person views, but the separation gives you more freedom, since the technology do draw some limitations what can be done with that true 1st person technique. Two main points that come to my mind is a: The controlling of the game is done with keyboard and not somesort of button in your forehead that reads your thoughts (maybe next 15..25 years) and the main input from the dameworld is through your eyes from 1 single flat display (we are one the transition now with all the oculus and so forth).

 

The keyboard makes in ackward to control your ingame character when the feature palette is pushed too wide (I think ArmA is a good example of the complexity gone too far). Ie. if you do want your character to lower or rise the weapon you would use keyboard (or mouse) input for that while in real life you just decide to lower or rise your gun, no reaching of that key. With separation of the views 1P/3P you can make it time dependable, your own view stays in high ready while the rest of the crew sees your character on low ready after X amount of seconds. Not optimal, but the best compromise with our current limited control technology.

 

What I spoke about the display is that the many problems comes from the camera attached in game to your right eye. You can not shake it around, or you can not have stereo camera. This creates all sorts of annoying things like that you need to peak further out of corners while you are leaning to left that while leaning to right. With separation of the 1P& 3P you can "attack" the camera between your eyes and adjust the 1P animation to still look like your weapon sights are aligned properly.

 

What comes to realism I think many do interpret that incorrectly as seeing mainly items and assets, but not the team wide dynamics and fluidity on moving around on the gameworld.

 

i do not see the problem in the controls to be honest!

the main problem with games looking wrong is perspective, missing "mass", overall wrong body movement speed and wrong scaling.

if you get these things right it's easy to trick the brain into thinking that you are controlling the player model with your "mind" and not your hands.

it sounds funny i am aware of that but if the game reacts correctly to what you are experiencing with your own body then even controllng the player model with a mouse and keyboard will give you a positive feedback.

 

for example, i am sure you know many games, mostly 3rd person where the player model visually makes only three steps but actually moves like 10 meters in the game,or games where you can change your direction when sprinting instantly. these games make me feel really awkward. then there are games where the

player model speed is reasonable, thre steps, three meters of moving distance, this instantly gives a "right feeling" of controlling a human being that has

a certain mass, even when i am using a mouse and a keyboard to control the character. now imagine this transfered into a 1st person where you can "feel" the mass of the weapon for example.

 

as for the camera position there seems only one reasonable position for me, which would be right in the centre between the player models eyes.

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Yeah. I'm on same page with you on the mass vs speed, in most games it is ackward. For me personally the control complexity also plays in major role, partly because of mild stress damage in my left hand finger ... due to excessive playing. :/ So I notice it quicker than average.


PS. On the other hand ie. on insurgency the feel of the gun is ackward, while there is the mass it feels like your hands would be a rubberbands compared to the feeling you get while running around with real assault rifle. You kind of can't tune in because of that, too much the mass mimicking maybe. As atleast myself it feels like that I'm not on control what the character does.

 

Edited by WARti0k0ne -BG-

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8 minutes ago, KaB said:

 

What game and how wrong are they? Im just curious.

 

it has been fixed due to massive demand but i am still thinking of battlefield 3 where a player would hide behind a box.

the 1st person view showed the weapon resting on/above the box, so logically the player's upper body should be visible above the box, however

the 3rd person model was almost completely behind the box showing only the very little tip of the head.

 

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, FIXXXER said:

 

it has been fixed due to massive demand but i am still thinking of battlefield 3 where a player would hide behind a box.

the 1st person view showed the weapon resting on/above the box, so logically the player's upper body should be visible above the box, however

the 3rd person model was almost completely behind the box showing only the very little tip of the head.

 

 

 

 

Isn't the CS franchise also like this? Your gun shoots middle of your upper torso. If you want one game that did take it correctly take a look at the DF:Landwarrior to Joint Operation games (the camera).  I unfortunately repeat these, since I stuck to these for a decade. The mass weren't there, atleast for turning. The transition form crouch to standing had a small cap, but it were almost instant. On the otherhand the leaning left and right were really spot on, better than in squad. Also the rolling sideways (specs ops you know ;) ) fooled you to be there. :) Also while there were no sprint the phasing were close enough compared to surroundings.

Edited by WARti0k0ne -BG-

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9 minutes ago, WARti0k0ne -BG- said:

Yeah. I'm on same page with you on the mass vs speed, in most games it is ackward. For me personally the control complexity also plays in major role, partly because of mild stress damage in my left hand finger ... due to excessive playing. :/ So I notice it quicker than average.

 

 

yeah it has a significant impact on how you pecieve a game!

 

another example, recently i was playing Resident Evil 7 with the PS VR.

it was absolutely amazing but there was one thing that annoyed the hell out of me.

you can go from standing into crouching instantly, there is no animation, nothing the camera perspective

simply changes to a lower level, this was so weird. it's a very simple thing but adding a crouch animation

in sense of taking a second or two to get into the crouching animation would have made this so much better.

 

btw sorry to hear that about your finger, you must be playing A LOT, damn.

 

not sure about CS as it is using a crosshair instad of "iron sights" for aiming,

though the "gun pointing right out of your chest" is a DOOM thing iirc.

Edited by FIXXXER

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39 minutes ago, FIXXXER said:

 

yeah it has a significant impact on how you pecieve a game!

 

another example, recently i was playing Resident Evil 7 with the PS VR.

it was absolutely amazing but there was one thing that annoyed the hell out of me.

you can go from standing into crouching instantly, there is no animation, nothing the camera perspective

simply changes to a lower level, this was so weird. it's a very simple thing but adding a crouch animation

in sense of taking a second or two to get into the crouching animation would have made this so much better.

 

btw sorry to hear that about your finger, you must be playing A LOT, damn.

 

not sure about CS as it is using a crosshair instad of "iron sights" for aiming,

though the "gun pointing right out of your chest" is a DOOM thing iirc.

Yep. The stance animations adds a lot, but I feel that most of the time they are done wrongly. Ie. It prevents you to move entirely or moving will cancel the animation. While right route would be that it plays the animation while you move, like while you get sprinting from the prone, you push up with your freehand while you draw your opposing leg and spring out up and running not from standup position but half way falling back to the ground (like you sometimes see on those fail compilations, where people end up to their nose).

 

Edit2: PS. Also what I have noticed on Squad that annoys me a great deal is the speed difference (or the lack of) between crouch and walking and the lack of visual input that I'm moving crouched.

 

Also I don't know if you did encounter the first iteration of the sprint system, but the delayed turning were really hot. Seriously, while it were really proof of concept level it still were really nice, unfortunately they removed it for reason or another. It had some stupid bugs (inconsistencies) though, but what to expect it were P.O.C.

 

What gaming goes, yep I DID play a lot 8h straight were something I did atleast once a week back then and every evening atleast 2 or 3 hours. Damn, unhealthy by looking it now. I think a pianists have a name for that injury on the little finger.

Edited by WARti0k0ne -BG-

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3 hours ago, WARti0k0ne -BG- said:

PS. On the other hand ie. on insurgency the feel of the gun is ackward, while there is the mass it feels like your hands would be a rubberbands compared to the feeling you get while running around with real assault rifle. You kind of can't tune in because of that, too much the mass mimicking maybe. As atleast myself it feels like that I'm not on control what the character does.

 

 

dude i absolutely agree,  i really hate how this is working in INSURGENCY, rubberbands described it perfectly!

same goes for Rising Storm 2: Vietnam, it looks even worse in this game.

 

it looks like the gun is floating within a magnetic field and trying to escape the hands of the player.

 

on the one hand it does kind of represent "mass" but the swinging and overall reaction of the guns like aiming is way too fast,

it looks so sluggish and then gets super fast without any transition.

things like that are hard to describe, maybe most people will not even notice this but for me it's so annoying that i can not really enjoy the game.

 

2 hours ago, WARti0k0ne -BG- said:

Yep. The stance animations adds a lot, but I feel that most of the time they are done wrongly. Ie. It prevents you to move entirely or moving will cancel the animation. While right route would be that it plays the animation while you move, like while you get sprinting from the prone, you push up with your freehand while you draw your opposing leg and spring out up and running not from standup position but half way falling back to the ground (like you sometimes see on those fail compilations, where people end up to their nose).

 

Edit2: PS. Also what I have noticed on Squad that annoys me a great deal is the speed difference (or the lack of) between crouch and walking and the lack of visual input that I'm moving crouched.

 

Also I don't know if you did encounter the first iteration of the sprint system, but the delayed turning were really hot. Seriously, while it were really proof of concept level it still were really nice, unfortunately they removed it for reason or another. It had some stupid bugs (inconsistencies) though, but what to expect it were P.O.C.

 

What gaming goes, yep I DID play a lot 8h straight were something I did atleast once a week back then and every evening atleast 2 or 3 hours. Damn, unhealthy by looking it now. I think a pianists have a name for that injury on the little finger.

 

also full agreement on my side, these things seem like little things with low priority but it's exactly these little things that can make a game feel great,

or in most cases really bad. i have also stated several times that a completely polished infantry gameplay would be the only right move but i can also understand that the dev's need to push out new things like vehicles etc. out to keep the crowd busy and new players coming.

 

as for sluggish movement i'd take the ARMA series as the perfect example. it has so many stance options etc but all of them are keybound making everything look super robotic and stiff, it's the main reason i do not play ARMA anymore.

 

yeah, sprinting especially needs a completely new system that has something like a pre and post sprint acceleration of the player model.

it looks so strange when people are standing still and then go into sprint speed instantly. same goues for crouching and going prone.

 

another example, when i saw some development videos for ESCAPE FROM TARKOV the movement looked so smooth and real,

all the stances etc were perfect. now after playing the ALPHA for a while i can not see any of this and i am prety sure it's not because it's an alpha,

it's just a general problem i guess...

 

btw. 12,13 years ago i used to play online FPS more than 12 hours a day, sometimes i would play 20+hours, go to school without sleep, skip the last few

clases and play for hours again! :D

Edited by FIXXXER

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Oh man, I wish I still had the time to put on those kind of hours **** the life gaming is all that matters. (some say that  Navigare necesse est, vivere non est necesse. THEY are wrong. ) :D 

 

Sry I'm a bit tipsy at this point I need to take a small time-out and rething what I were supposed to write.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Drav said:

A good example is weapon aiming. When aiming at the moment, we cant pull the weapon closer than now, as the buttstock starts clipping into the shoulder. With the new system, we can have different animations for 1st and 3rd person, so from 3rd person, the guy is aiming one way, but for 1st person we can bring the sights closer for a better sight picture.

 

Holy shit that will be a thing?? God damn, V10 can't come soon enough xD

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54 minutes ago, Aniallator said:

 

Holy shit that will be a thing?? God damn, V10 can't come soon enough xD

V9... but yeah, bring v10 along with it.

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On 25.2.2017 at 0:30 AM, WARti0k0ne -BG- said:

Oh man, I wish I still had the time to put on those kind of hours **** the life gaming is all that matters. (some say that  Navigare necesse est, vivere non est necesse. THEY are wrong. ) :D 

 

Sry I'm a bit tipsy at this point I need to take a small time-out and rething what I were supposed to write.

 

 

 

:D:D:D:D

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