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SpecialAgentJohnson

Why is development so slow? / prioritization

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Why is development so slow? Miniscule improvement per month, like cars with more wheels, stuff like that. Are you guys short on cash or what is the bottleneck? 

 

Also I believe you focus your attention to the wrong things. For instance, all focus seems to be on animations and uniforms, new factions etc that gives very little gain in gameplay enjoyment. If I were you (again I don't know the difficulties you are facing) I would have focused on getting in the big game-changers like helicopters etc first. That is what people are really looking forward to, not British faction whatever. There seems to be too much perfectionism in the development team. My suggestion is: Leave some stuff half-made and don't listen to silly people complaining about the sights of the m4 not being perfectly realistic or whatever. Carv out the big chunks and perfect afterwards. Took years to even get some kind of vehicles and it seems it will take forever to see helicopters coming in as well.

 

Love your game though. If you need money maybe you could start some campaign or something. I am sure a lot of people here would put up. 

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7 minutes ago, SpecialAgentJohnson said:

[snip] (again I don't know the difficulties you are facing) [/snip]

 

you answered the question yourself:)

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11 minutes ago, sgt_froug said:

 

you answered the question yourself:)

That is not an answer, that is just ranting. Other dev teams also face unknown difficulties. Granted unlimited resources one could expect faster progress, so what is the bottleneck considering you not having unlimited resources? 

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Stom   

It seems like you're not too familiar with software development if you think that OWI's progress is slow.

 

For a relatively small team of 25ish developers, with many of them being part time, they have actually been pushing large updates pretty frequently. Before the end of year holidays last year they had major version updates around every three months.

 

The stuff you are referring to as minor improvements like multi-wheeled physics and the animation overhaul are major changes that are absolutely necessary for the progression of development. If they don't do it now then they will need to retroactively fix the new content that is missing these core changes in the future, which is wasted time.

 

Also, you say you want them to start working on things like helicopters, but the game simply isn't ready for those sorts of assets. The devs have been playing it pretty smart by building the foundation of the game slowly so that it's actually playable. Even though the game is in Early Access they need people to actively play the game to keep consistent revenue flowing due to the fact it's a multiplayer game, so if they add half finished content into the game and people stop playing then it would be near impossible to revive the playerbase.

 

However, I do agree about the BAF being added so early. I was much more exited about the Insurgents being revamped and given some attention,, not that I dislike the idea of the British as a faction, I just expected them to be built after the existing factions were filled out a bit more. We will just have to see how it goes.

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Tiny stuff like vehicles with more wheels is actually a pretty big step. Like, a really big step. But, for some people it's simply not possible to understand. If you want development to speed up, why not learn how to mod/develop and help the dev team yourself? :)

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Psyrus   
 

That is not an answer, that is just ranting. Other dev teams also face unknown difficulties. Granted unlimited resources one could expect faster progress, so what is the bottleneck considering you not having unlimited resources? 


They don't have unlimited resources so that's a moot point. Their development does not seem particularly slow given how much has been accomplished in a year and a half.

Have you done any game development or project management? The method you're proposing sounds like a great way to alienate the majority of the player base by pumping out bug riddled features and gameplay elements, purely to keep up the tempo. I assume you'd be one of the first players making long rant posts about how everything is broken and that "it's an alpha" would not suffice as an answer for you.

If I've misjudged you and you do have actual dev experience or large scale project management experience, I apologize... But assuming I'm right, this lady wants to have a word with you :

maxresdefault.jpg

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This isn't no EA with unlimited funds & manpower..Year half ago or so we didn't even have "Prone" but we loved it.totally different game  all together now from what we had at the start.

UE4 is getting updates so is Squad....

 

"Steady as She goes"!

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Also as an end user I'd much rather that the things that are already implemented are tweaked to be near perfect before other things get added to the game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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First off: This is not attack on the dev team. We all love to play this game so it means a lot of things they are doing right. Although constructive criticism is neved bad still.

 

So man-hours is a problem then.

 

I work full-time as a developer with an engineering background so no problem understanding the difficulties there.

Quote

Scrum’s incremental, iterative approach trades the traditional phases of “waterfall” development for the ability to develop a subset of high-value features first, incorporating feedback sooner.

 

Multi-wheeled physics is a very good point actually. It is very complicated to simulate and get working ...and brings almost no value to gameplay! It is also very hard to imagine it being a bottleneck to for instance a helicopter that has almost no wheels to begin with. As far as I am concerned, multi-wheel vehicle physics is 90% eye-candy. Eye-candy is nice, but is not what makes you stick to a game in the long run.

 

When it comes to project-management, I believe this project bears the hallmark of being a hobby-venture instead of business oriented project. I am imaging the dev team thinking it would be really cool / fun to develope multi-wheel physics, rather than them having a project manager telling them that this won't get people to buy the game, thus should be put on hold for a while. That would be the more business oriented approach.

 

To be honest I actually can understand (when thinking about it) that BAF got added, because art team is probably not qualified to do core-programming work and thus have nothing better to do anyway. Probably the reason...

 

 

 

 

 

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Stom   
8 minutes ago, SpecialAgentJohnson said:

Multi-wheeled physics is a very good point actually. It is very complicated to simulate and get working ...and brings almost no value to gameplay! It is also very hard to imagine it being a bottleneck to for instance a helicopter that has almost no wheels to begin with. As far as I am concerned, multi-wheel vehicle physics is 90% eye-candy. Eye-candy is nice, but is not what makes you stick to a game in the long run.

 

When it comes to project-management, I believe this project bears the hallmark of being a hobby-venture instead of business oriented project. I am imaging the dev team thinking it would be really cool / fun to develope multi-wheel physics, rather than them having a project manager telling them that this won't get people to buy the game, thus should be put on hold for a while. That would be the more business oriented approach.

 

Multi-wheeled vehicle physics isn't eye candy, that's a bonus, to my understanding what they're working is the actual physics of having multiple wheels in traction with the ground. This means we won't have BTRs or trucks getting stuck going up small hills, it's a very important feature since so many military vehicles have multiple wheels.

 

11 minutes ago, SpecialAgentJohnson said:

To be honest I actually can understand (when thinking about it) that BAF got added, because art team is probably not qualified to do core-programming work and thus have nothing better to do anyway. Probably the reason...

 

You're right there. The only people on the team that are able to programme are the programmers, which don't make up a majority of the team. Game development teams are made up of multiple disciplines, like 3D artists, programmers, designers, sound engineers, effects artists, texture artists, technical artists and more. With the size of OWI I have no doubt many of the devs wear many different hats, but an artist isn't going to do programming and a programmer isn't going to do art.

 

So to put it simply, they don't just have 25 people to throw onto the highest priority job, whether it be bug fixing, feature coding or art creation. Each member of the team is only able to work on one or maybe two aspects of the game, but can't touch anything else.

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Romby   
51 minutes ago, SpecialAgentJohnson said:

Multi-wheeled physics is a very good point actually. It is very complicated to simulate and get working ...and brings almost no value to gameplay! It is also very hard to imagine it being a bottleneck to for instance a helicopter that has almost no wheels to begin with. As far as I am concerned, multi-wheel vehicle physics is 90% eye-candy. Eye-candy is nice, but is not what makes you stick to a game in the long run.

Multi wheel vehicles can be used to make Tracked vehicles functional. Without this a tank would pretty much be a Truck only having 4 point in contact with ground (it would get stuck everywhere). Now they can make a tanks tracks work (like making a "20 wheel" vehicle). So they made a system to improve BTRs and Strykers that helps future development.

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Vehicles don't get stuck that often that the game is unplayable. Most often when they get stuck it is because of sloppy driving. It is not that vehicles dont get stuck in real life either. Vehicles are good enough compared to not having any helicopters. I can also imagine that if they get stuck it would be possible to cheat a little bit, i.e. being slightly un-physical to get it through that bush or whatever. 

 

True physics are complicated and if it is only to not get the vehicles stuck then the content value added is comparatively low. 

 

Still tracked vehicles are less desirable than helicopters any day of the week for me. Throw in choppers and static AA-guns and you would have completely revolutionized the game. 

Edited by SpecialAgentJohnson

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There is also another danger of refining details too much before main structures are complete, and that is, for instance with the maps: You spend so much time making it work perfectly for infantry and vehicles alone. Then when you are supposed to add choppers you notice the map have to be completely remade because the advantage of choppers completely change the dynamics of the entire map/game.

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instead of doing half solutions, as most of the game is so far, they are now working towards actually making the stuff final now, so they can release it sometime this or next year.

If they kept making 50% solutions on everything they would have to do everything over and over which would take much longer to complete the game totally.

I believe (dunno) the same people who are going to make the helicopters are right now working on the vehicle physics and animations... so they are going to finish what they are working on before going for helicopters... this principle applies to all aspects of development.

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Romby   
14 minutes ago, SpecialAgentJohnson said:

Vehicles don't get stuck that often that the game is unplayable. Most often when they get stuck it is because of sloppy driving. It is not that vehicles dont get stuck in real life either. Vehicles are good enough compared to not having any helicopters. I can also imagine that if they get stuck it would be possible to cheat a little bit, i.e. being slightly un-physical to get it through that bush or whatever. 

 

True physics are complicated and if it is only to not get the vehicles stuck then the content value added is comparatively low. 

 

Still tracked vehicles are less desirable than helicopters any day of the week for me. Throw in choppers and static AA-guns and you would have completely revolutionized the game. 

Well i think IFVs and MBTs should be made before choppers (and there are lots of things i prefer having before those). So guess it is 1v1. Actually what i think is most importaint for game right now are things to help insurgent and militia gameplay. Choppers would just make it even harder to play as insurgents.

 

It is fun how people think what they what is what everyone want. So often you see the thread "devs come on already. Why havent you implemented x? The is the most important feature for us players" and you think that isnt important for me at all.

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Stom   
18 minutes ago, SpecialAgentJohnson said:

Vehicles don't get stuck that often that the game is unplayable...

 

No, but the aim of making a game isn't to make it just unplayable, they're trying to make a good game. The main issue with the current vehicles isn't necessarily that they get stuck a lot, it's that they get slowed down far too much when driving up hill.

 

19 minutes ago, SpecialAgentJohnson said:

Still tracked vehicles are less desirable than helicopters any day of the week for me...

 

I'm the opposite. I like helicopters but tracked vehicles are far more interesting to me, so much so that I would prefer to see every faction get a full compliment of ground vehicles before helis are even considered, but that's just me.

 

13 minutes ago, SpecialAgentJohnson said:

There is also another danger of refining details too much before main structures are complete...

 

But the animation system and multi-wheeled vehicles are part of the main structure of the game.

 

All infantry movement and gunplay is beholden to the animation system overhaul.

 

All new and existing vehicles are beholden to the multi-wheel system.

 

Nothing needs to be changed for helicopters because they don't exist yet, the other features that we've been discussing are already a core part of the game and are being refined.

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Hard to see how MBTs make life easier for the militia which probably won't have any, but sure some people might not think much of expanding the game into the airspace. 

 

More time taken might be acceptable if it attracts a higher player-base early on, which facilitates higher revenue, in turn making it possible to hire new experienced core developers. And (as stated with maps) regarding certain perfectionistic issues, some things might actually take more time this way. 

 

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Just now, SpecialAgentJohnson said:

For me choppers would be a "game-changer" ;-)

For most people with non high end hardware, the new animation system will hopefully be a game changer because we will have better performance.

 

A lot of people still play with around 30 FPS, I think they all would much rather have better performance then choppers first.

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Romby   
9 minutes ago, SpecialAgentJohnson said:

Hard to see how MBTs make life easier for the militia which probably won't have any, but sure some people might not think much of expanding the game into the airspace. 

 

More time taken might be acceptable if it attracts a higher player-base early on, which facilitates higher revenue, in turn making it possible to hire new experienced core developers. And (as stated with maps) regarding certain perfectionistic issues, some things might actually take more time this way. 

 

If you read my thread i said i wanted MBTs before Choppers, but there are things i want even before MBTs (<-- Making life easier for Militia and Insurgents).

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Besides in order to have choppers, we would need to have aa to counter it. Meaning aa guns, aa tanks, and etc...They would also have to balance things off.

It makes more sense to finish the vehicles first, then work on aa "anti air"weapons/vehicles while adding helis and planes in the process. Aircraft should be coming later this year anyways so get excited if everything goes smoothly!

 

Also, why everything was going so slow is because, vehicles had to be redone because the network was all screwy. Vehicles wouldn't stay on the ground and were not functioning quite right so in regards made them to have to redo it or else we would of had vehicles a long time ago.

Edited by WarEagle751

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Assifuah   
1 hour ago, SpecialAgentJohnson said:

Hard to see how MBTs make life easier for the militia which probably won't have any, but sure some people might not think much of expanding the game into the airspace. 

 

More time taken might be acceptable if it attracts a higher player-base early on, which facilitates higher revenue, in turn making it possible to hire new experienced core developers. And (as stated with maps) regarding certain perfectionistic issues, some things might actually take more time this way. 

 

 

1 hour ago, SpecialAgentJohnson said:

For me choppers would be a "game-changer" ;-)

 

If you truly believe that development speeds up by simply throwing more people into the process you're very mistaken. There are dependencies, from systems and features to downright creating content itself. In fact, and this has been mentioned and demonstrated a million times for various reasons, art assets are pretty much the most common thing more manpower will speed up. However, all that does is create a backlog of assets waiting to be fully implemented into the game.. so even though you think throwing 30 more devs into the team will make the update frequency sky rocket, it won't - team members are dependent on other team members. Joe the Artist can't implement the 15 weapons he's worked on if Ben the Animator is busy working on other features that are a cornerstone of an entire system.

 

Money isn't a huge issue. Manpower isn't a huge issue either - while 30 more devs would speed things up here and there, they're not going to spend months hiring the right people (because you don't just hire any random dude.... this is a tight knit team, people HAVE to fit in) just to satisfy your personal feeling of not enough content updates being pushed out.

 

Also, from your original post - "minuscule improvement per month"? Game are made in iterations / cycles. They're not made in a fashion that is supposed to cater purely to the player / consumer, they're made in a way that yields the best results in terms of introducing new content, features and polishing them as well as working out testing and squashing bugs. Additionally, the devs are working on things we won't see for another 6 months, as they always have. There's a lot more being developed than there is shown in the recaps or released at any give time.

 

I would recommend you read up some articles on production and/or game development in general. It seems like you have a skewed understanding of how games are actually made. :P

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