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Thunderdome Admin Issues LOOK TO SEE IF WE ARE CHEATING

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LOOK TO SEE IF WE ARE CHEATING

 


So how is this evidence of hacking? I'd like to community to weigh in on this. I see a fob out in the open and my guys seeing it and moving over to it, nobody was on the other team and relaying fob positions as thats not how we promote fun and fair game play within our team, on our server or anyone elses server for that matter. OP first light is a small map and easy to ascertain FOB directions, especially when you see a few guys moving away from the middle of no where. Also the fact that everyone puts a FOB back there when attacking Militias last cap. Per our training, we do not engage and start looking for the enemy fob to knock out reinforcements while relaying those spotted enemies to the team, especially if its in a usual spot as the many hours we have in this game we have seen it all and OP first light isnt forgiving on FOB placements due to its small map size. Going along with training it is pretty standard to send out some feelers down a usual flank the enemy takes to gain SA (situational awareness) which includes, locating enemy movements, spawn points, and flanking a force from the rear as needed while relaying all info to SL, allowing SL to disseminate the information to the rest of the team. 

 

From what I see here, I see admins (who are on the opposite team) abusing their powers to protect their teams horrible FOB placements which is heavily against the official server licensing rules in regards to administration of said servers.

-RAOR- does not, I repeat, Does NOT cheat in anyway shape or form and are the first to bring such accusations to an admin, and heavily enforced within our server as per the devs licensing rules they put forth to mitigate these situations. And everyone on our team knows if there is someone ghosting it is a lifetime ban from our team, community, and potentially other servers we play on.  We are also very involved within the squad community and try and teach, promote teamwork, and win games so doing something like ghosting wouldn't be in our best interest as a community or for promoting the core of squad gameplay.

 

You are more than welcome to come to our discord (info on front page of our website http://www.lostost.com/) and cross check the names you see there to the names on the other team or to lay your claims to our team in person. The team would also like an apology for jumping the gun on perma bans with the only evidence being a video showing a horrible fob placement and admins using their power to influence the game by saving said FOB, as is heavily against the official server rules.

Edited 30 minutes ago by grimshadow

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I'll chime in on this since we're talking about my server. First I'll point out that I wasn't there so I'm not a witness. I'm only here to advocate on behalf of my admins and the players who witnessed this event occur. 

 

Let's start by cutting out the nonsense- Your players Schrapnel, Mxx190, StrikerC123, ProfessorKnocksHard -JJ, and ArtofWar were not banned because of hacking. They were banned because they were caught cherry-picking FOBs. Next, at no point did any of these players or any representative from -ROAR- approach the Thunderdome admin about this ban. As per our server rules, all players are afforded the opportunity to make an appeal. Instead, they (I assume) approached one of the Devs to complain about it. That Dev then immediately reached out to me and we discussed the matter in detail. Since you're so interested in highlighting the server admin guidelines, I should point out that the determination from that Dev was "you guys have broken no rules as far as I'm concerned. You saw a problem and have taken steps toward correcting that problem". 

 

As far as I'm concerned that's a closed-case but since the Thunderdome team doesn't act out of spite, I'll continue to provide evidence to the fact. 

 

During the game in question, Thunderdome had 6 admin online. When it was realized by one team that their FOBs were being taken down within minutes or seconds of them being placed, that aroused suspicion. Numerous non-admin players have given me testimony to this fact and I'm sure they will gladly speak on this once I share the link on our discord server.

 

Moving on- when the admins were made aware of this suspicion they starting investigating. That investigation included watching the match in admincam from multiple angles. The decision was made to have the team place a bait FOB immediately after -ROAR- players took down the most recent FOB. This new FOB was placed in a location on its own, outside the 'practical' or 'logical' areas, and the 3 players who placed it did not encounter and enemies in between putting it down and -ROAR- players moving in to destroy it. Equally important to note, the squad leaders were made aware that this was a bait fob. Yes, the video only gives a snapshot of the entire event but so what?

 

Your implications are that 1) Thunderdome admins only act on behalf of their own benefit and 2) That all -ROAR- players are saints.   

 

So, the concerning part in all of this is that you would have everyone assume that the Thunderdome admin were so bored with winning that match that they needed to find some people to ban in the mean time?

 

Here's the bottom line: Those players are banned from Thunderdome because they were caught red-handed. If you want to speak on their behalf and swear to their legitimacy than that's your choice and your reputation. If it were me, I would have addressed it internally as a clan and then approached the Thunderdome community in private to get the facts straight instead of airing your dirty laundry.

 

Our rules are publicly listed and the players ALWAYS come first at Thunderdome.  

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This is my side of the story if you would like to hear it:


We start out OP First Light on the US side and rush to the west side of storage site.  We place down a fob behind a hill and some trees.  -RAOR- starts joining the server on the Militia side with one member joining our team.  Shortly after joining, the -RAOR-  member (I can't remember which one) switches to the Militia side.  A few minutes after that our FOB on the west side is taken down. 

 

We continue the match, Storage is captured by US then neutralized by the Militia and then the US take it back.  US then takes Castle and our squad continues onto Railroad Village. We place a fob to the east side of the point, again in a dip in the terrain.  Very soon after we are rushed from the North directly on the fob.  I then go into Admin cam because I am suspicious of how quickly it was taken down.  I then watch 2 -RAOR- members dig up the FOB.  Kreamy our squad leader gets 2 other member to place down a bait fob again in a dip in the terrain,  because we are all suspicious of how quickly all fobs have been taken down. 

 

I am continuing to watch the 2 members dig up the fob.  After it is dug up they continue back to the point of Rail road village.  The bait fob is placed down by Kreamy and he shoots up to Admin Cam.  No more than 10 seconds later the 2 members snap 90 degrees to the south straight to our fob.  No shots were fired from the squad members to indicate a fob would be there.  They kill the Squad members that place the fob other than Kreamy (who is in admin cam) then continue STRAIGHT to the fob that could not be seen from where they were, I promise you that.  They then dig up the fob.  There were 4 admins watching all of this happening but sadly only one recording.  None of the fobs taken down were active.


We then banned all of the -RAOR- members present because they were clearly being fed information about our fob locations.  I zero doubt in my mind. 

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Feeding the opposing team information (a.k.a. "ghosting") is an old issue, one that must be taken very seriously. It ruins matches for the majority of players present and it could effectively kill the entire game just as easily as rampant hacking. @grimshadow's video doesn't show us enough to judge whether ghosting was an issue here or not, it makes me wonder if that's because of his inadequate video editing skills (how hard is it to cut a video nowadays?), or because he only wanted to show us what he wanted us to see. Either way it was a lackluster attempt to clear the name of -ROAR-.

 

I'm not taking a stand for either of the sides here, do what you will with my observation.

Edited by MultiSquid

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1 minute ago, MultiSquid said:

Feeding the opposing team information (a.k.a. "ghosting") is an old issue, one that must be taken very seriously. It ruins matches for the majority of players present and it could effectively kill the entire game just as easily as rampant hacking. @grimshadow's video doesn't show us enough to judge whether ghosting was an issue here or not, it makes me wonder if that's because of his inadequate video editing skills (how hard is it to cut a video nowadays?), or because he only wanted to show us what he wanted us to see. Either way it was a lackluster attempt to clear the name of -ROAR-.

 

I'm not taking a stand for either of the sides here, do what you will with my observation.

Spoiler

 

This was there video they posted as "evidence" which shows my guys kill 2 of theres and proceed in the direction they came looking for spawn points. You can see Shrapnel watching MXX 6 while he is scanning south in the enemy direction of travel. Then Shrapnel spots an enemy FOB, relates it to MXX who is still traveling south as he turns around to help take it down. 

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7 minutes ago, MultiSquid said:

Feeding the opposing team information (a.k.a. "ghosting") is an old issue, one that must be taken very seriously. It ruins matches for the majority of players present and it could effectively kill the entire game just as easily as rampant hacking. @grimshadow's video doesn't show us enough to judge whether ghosting was an issue here or not, it makes me wonder if that's because of his inadequate video editing skills (how hard is it to cut a video nowadays?), or because he only wanted to show us what he wanted us to see. Either way it was a lackluster attempt to clear the name of -ROAR-.

 

I'm not taking a stand for either of the sides here, do what you will with my observation.


I was the admin who recorded and posted the video above. What you see is 100% of what was recorded. We understand the video only shows a very very small fraction of what happened but was posted regardless. We were asked to upload what we had and we did exactly that. 

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Spoiler

 

Usually when a group joins a serve they all like to play together. We do not look at maps when doing so. OP first light as stated is a very small map, and per our training we try and predict enemy movements and move to them accordingly. Ask anyone with over 300 hrs in game how easy it is to find FOB's on OP, especially due to the small map size.

 

This is such an important issue because banning people for taking down FOB's sets a horrible precedent for the team in question, the server admins and server integrity, and the squad community in general.  Next thing you see are people betting banned left and right with accusations of finding fobs efficiently.

Edited by grimshadow

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I have no doubt that -RAOR- preaches a strong ethos and really does not cheat.  I have never had any issues with them before and they have been on Thunderdome! numerous times.  I know that it was probably just a few bad apples.

 

As an admin team we are responsible for ensuring that exploits and dirty tactics are not utilized.  We are responsible for making the game play enjoyable for all parties.  Last night myself and the rest of the admin team, as stated above, noticed suspicious behavior, and I made the call to ban all -RAOR- playing once I saw the two players turn DIRECTLY toward the bait FOB 4 seconds after I laid it.  We saw, we documented (poorly, I agree), and we acted to uphold our responsibilities.

 

We do monthly events to help build the community and let players enjoy a change of pace.  During free weekends many admin create tutorial squads for the new guys.  We just want an equal playing field where everyone acts like an adult and knows what's right and what's wrong.  Cry admin abuse all you want, but there are plenty of other players keeping our server full who would say otherwise.  Why not talk to them instead of listening to what the distraught OP before passing judgement?

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I understand your position in all of this and I'll make one more statement before I'm done with this post entirely. 6 of my admins plus several players all made the same statement to me about what happened. The admins tried to get video evidence as a means of justification because that's how it works on our server. Players aren't just banned all willy-nilly. Your players being "good people" with references on steam and no prior evidence of ghosting is a bit lacking in my eyes. Your players weren't targeted, they were discovered. I hope you can understand the difference. 

 

Believe me, I know how good some of your players are. I've played with several of them. This isn't about my personal opinion of your player's conduct. As I've already said, they are free to approach us about the issue and one of them has. I will speak with this individual on the subject and we'll proceed from there. Which is precisely what should have happened FIRST to begin with. Throwing shade on my server by blasting us with veiled threats about admin abuse doesn't make me want to help you. Perhaps next time (hopefully there isn't a next time) you can bring this to us on our discord, steam group, or website. And not on the OWI forums where you inadvertently encourage players to have a negative opinion about either or both of us. 

 

For the record- we are completely justified in our actions. Anything we do to alter this situation for your players is because we're not just a bunch of assholes. We're a bunch of assholes who actually give a damn about players enjoying themselves in Squad. One or more of your players might remain banned because of this. Or, we might repeal one or more of the bans. I don't know yet since that conversation hasn't been had. Until then, keep the bullshit posts about admin abuse and whatever else in your pants until we get it all sorted out. 

 

 

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I wasn't here to see what happened, but I do agree throwing shade at a server and its admin staff without first approaching them in private seems a bit shady and immature, as if trying to rally an angry community against Thunderdome without the full picture. And not only did you put them on blast here you also did so on the Squad Discord server. Learn to settle your disputes with the "offending" party in question before taking something that could tarnish your name, your squad's name, and the server owner and server staffs name, people will respect that a lot more than public shaming. 

 

I've never witnessed Thunderdome admins abusing their power before either from the winning or losing side. Also if what the admins described is true (multiple players snapping to the direction of a bait FOB within seconds of it being placed) that sure sounds like something fishy going on and not "experience" in the game leading you finding FOBs. You seem to be clinging to the lack of video evidence against you despite there being multiple witness testimonies.

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Spoiler

 

Since this whole issues is based on opinions, I wanted more opinions on how this video in any way showed  ghosting, and also to highlight the fact that without concrete evidence this could and will become a real problem within the community, especially with established teams. It was to bring to light the issue in general and not to flame anybody and produce a dialogue within the community.

Edited by grimshadow

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@grimshadow if your original post was to create dialogue, then why did you put the server name in the title?  There was no need for that if all you wanted was "opinions on how this video in any way showed ghosting".

 

Just call a spade a spade: You are raging and wanted to drag our server name through the dirt.

 

Edited by Kreamy

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This thread is stupid. RAOR doesn't look like they were ghosting or "cherry-picking" whatever the **** that is. Good players find FOBs. Especially when you have march of the penguins coming from that area. 

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4 minutes ago, Robin Sage said:

This thread is stupid. RAOR doesn't look like they were ghosting or "cherry-picking" whatever the **** that is. Good players find FOBs. Especially when you have march of the penguins coming from that area. 

SMH

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That FOBs in a pretty standardized place on that map, and it doesnt help your case that you have friendlies on it. Any decent player is going to push bush and find out where they are coming from. All in all, pretty terrible evidence of cheating/hacking. Nothing against the server of course, but I dont think this ban is justified.

Edited by GreatDestroyerDT

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1 hour ago, grimshadow said:
  Reveal hidden contents

 

Since this whole issues is based on opinions, I wanted more opinions on how this video in any way showed  ghosting, and also to highlight the fact that without concrete evidence this could and will become a real problem within the community, especially with established teams. It was to bring to light the issue in general and not to flame anybody and produce a dialogue within the community.

This is kind of like going into a court case where there were 6 police officers (admins) testifying to one thing happening but a lawyer pulls out a shitty cell phone recording and says "because this video doesn't show the whole thing then what they said is an opinion".

Sure if you base the whole case off of that video then there don't appear to be any guilty party. But according to the admin testimonials above and the bait they set and observed it did appear something fishy was going on. Hell, the admins even admitted above that they did a shitty job of recording it and that they should have done better. When I initially looked at the video I saw nothing that would have indicated cheating. But after the background provided here by server staff and a description of what they did it really kind of changed my mind on it.

 

All that put aside, as I said before its pretty childish to go dragging their name through the mud before having a discussion with them one on one first to resolve the issue. It only serves to make both you and them look bad.

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I love how you guys are upset that we didn't contact you to "Talk about this first" as if we owe you anything after accusing us of cheating. We have a very solid reputation in this community for a reason. If you guys wanted the respect of not being called out for what was a completely ridiculous ban of OUR ENTIRE TEAM? over the actions of two players, maybe contact us first next time.

 

You guys know damn well we aren't cheaters and I don't care how frustrated you are... if you don't want your FOBs found, stop putting them in dumb places. 

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Wow, just watched that video, "oh they're done!" LOL you gotta be kidding me. They saw three guys in the woods away from an objective on a small map, of course they are going to go check it out instead of just assuming that you three were playing brokeback mountain.

 

You've got five admins there on a damn witch-hunt and you found just what you made yourselves believe you would. How about next time instead of crying about the other team taking out your FOBs you put them in places where they don't get instantly spotted. You put that FOB in defilade and they don't even know it's there. Instead you stick it out in the open where it's visible from 300 meters. You don't even bother to hide it in a bush. G ****ing G.

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1 hour ago, SixGhost said:

I love how you guys are upset that we didn't contact you to "Talk about this first" as if we owe you anything after accusing us of cheating. We have a very solid reputation in this community for a reason. If you guys wanted the respect of not being called out for what was a completely ridiculous ban of OUR ENTIRE TEAM? over the actions of two players, maybe contact us first next time.

 

You guys know damn well we aren't cheaters and I don't care how frustrated you are... if you don't want your FOBs found, stop putting them in dumb places. 

Respect gets respect. They believe you disregarded/disrespected their server rules. You guys put them on blast on social media because you think they are disrespecting your squad. That's how nothing gets resolved and people build grudges.

 

Edited by TheFSM

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I personally have had nothing but bad experiences with RAOR members. So with some of their members banned. Thunderdome will be my first choice in servers. Their admins do a good job keeping that server running and fair for the players. I thank the owner and admins for a job well done.

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Missteps on both sides to me.  Ghosting is difficult to prove.  Both groups made public gestures (broadcasts and forums).  Whether ROAR is innocent or guilty, whether Thunderdome admins went too tribal, another way to handle it might have been for admins (Thunderdome admin --> ROAR admin) and exchange information less public like to find the particular offenders.  Much disrespect going on between groups.  But hindsight is 20/20.

Edited by CageMatchKimsey

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Thinking more about this post, some servers share ban lists.  Perhaps communities/clans organized into a coalition (or some such association) would better deal with inter-community/clan disciplinary issues and even cheaters in general.  The competitive clans probably know each other better than the communities.  Maybe this exists already.  Just a thought.

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There were definite issues with FOBs being taken down suddenly and out of no where for about 2 rounds leading up to this.

Edited by Catindabox

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