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Games won or lost in the 1st 5 minutes

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11 minutes ago, Friesen said:

The solution is this (and I've been posting this on the forum like half a year ago when Squad was just released). That all the objectives already should be precapped and only the middle ones be neutral so the battle is going to be there. How many times I've won maps like Godorok by driving the BTR with my squad straight to the Radio station and just wiping out any militia coming to that flag which isn't fair. The battle should begin in the middle of the map.

 

And along with the previously mentioned cool down for the rally points when the SL exits the vehicle would prevent unrealistic morphing an entire squad behind enemy lines by driving a vehicle and placing a rally point. It would force the squads to place a rally point way ahead of the objective and advance on foot like in a real battle where the infantry slowly moves up through the terrain, through smoke and through suppressive fire. Not silly parking a vehicle behind a building, spawn on a rally and taking enemy from the back all of sudden.


das it mane!

also leaves time for Logi squads to set up defensive in case of  the opposition advancements 

 

Edited by Bigsmokeee

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For me both the fob and the rally point should be only being allowed to be placeable after some 3 minutes after you exit the vehicle. So if you enter a vehicle and then exit, you can't put a fob or a rally point straight away but wait 3 minutes.

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1 minute ago, catbref said:

I've been in games where the initial logi truck rush squad has been wiped out, leaving the logi truck so far away that it's essentially out of play for the rest of the round which is then a disadvantage.

 

Another idea to throw into the idea ring:

 

Dropping supplies on a new, inactive FOB only reduces the timer by 2 minutes (as well as increasing supplies). 

This prevents insta-remote-spawn and gives the other team time to find that "logi truck sound I just heard" and wipe out the FOB before it becomes an issue.

 

Its a good idea. 
Cause u cant just use a fob as an immediate teleporter, its ridiculous. 

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On 1/10/2017 at 2:16 PM, Tartantyco said:

 

Of course they are to blame. The entire point of rushing is to disrupt the cap of a flag to halt the enemy's advance while you cap your flags. It only works if flags have to be capped in a set order. If your rushing doesn't stop the enemy from capping flags, it's pointless. And rushing is generally most effective when the rushing team has a heavy asset for transport and support(HMMWV and BTR) that requires substantial firepower to clear from the flag.

 

Neither is the rushing issue limited to first flag rushing. The entire game is about rushing currently. You drop one guy on the first flags and rush everything else to the middle and beyond. The team that does not do this loses. And due to the massive distances involved on some maps, rushing is further incentivized because once a flag is capped, the rushing team is always best equipped to move on that flag again. This is what causes the domino capping effect.

 

The fundamental issue is the game mode. Rushing doesn't work on Conquest. It doesn't work on Insurgency. It works on AAS.

 

 

Let's not introduce these kinds of artificial barriers. It must arise naturally from well-designed game mechanics. The game mode is the issue, not 

Your logic is terribly flawed. You claim rushing is the only way to play the game mode but instead of trying to use tactics that counter that tactic you promote tactics that specifically allow rushing to succeed. Rushing works because teams fail to defend, plain and simple. The counter to movement is not movement, the counter to movement is ambush. It's not ****ing rocket science people.

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At beginning of match Intel from computer commander or commander with eye in sky assets should tell his team what the enemy is doing, are they rushing flag X with all available units? Then respond with counter, but remember other team has eye in sky too.

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13 minutes ago, XRobinson said:

At beginning of match Intel from computer commander or commander with eye in sky assets should tell his team what the enemy is doing, are they rushing flag X with all available units? Then respond with counter, but remember other team has eye in sky too.

Or, you could deploy your forces to defend vulnerable objectives until they are secured and then redeploy where needed. But I guess that requires an understanding of basic military tactics which 99.9% of the player base lacks.

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But what if other team deploys same defend tactic as you?  You got both sides playing defence and none attacking.  There has to be attack somewhere....SunTzu says attack where they don't defend, but is that the right tactic? In this scenario?

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A team is not a singular entity. It should never be all attacking or all defending. It is made up.of different parts that should be doing different things to help towards victory.

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54 minutes ago, PolishKruk said:

Your logic is terribly flawed. You claim rushing is the only way to play the game mode but instead of trying to use tactics that counter that tactic you promote tactics that specifically allow rushing to succeed. Rushing works because teams fail to defend, plain and simple. The counter to movement is not movement, the counter to movement is ambush. It's not ****ing rocket science people.

 

You are talking like a STR players, like 90% of the ppl arguing about this. 

First, staying in defense is retard cause during this time, the ennemy start to put you in ticket bleed. 
So you are forced to advance for disabling it... and u finaly turn in attack (which tend to cost more than defending in term of loss, and you are bleeding at the same time). 

Also, puting an ambush mean you are faster than the ennemy to defend the point u want. Most of the time, the flag who is important to create a good ticket bleed, is at equal distance for both team... So explain me how you ambush some-one you are not waiting? 

 

Second, As i say, its not a STR, you are not leading tone of little and obedient soliders.. 

Its a no-sense to ask ppl being good at coutering something easy to use, when u can do the same yourself... 

U know, its like making a 1vs1 cross, but purposely forcing youself doing it in tong

Edited by darricks

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That's why we need strategy, and a commander who knows how to lead. Feedback on what the enemy is doing and knowing where the weak spots are in a defence and knowing how to win in a given situation.  Splitting your team up between defence and offence, defending the right spots, setting up your enemy to make a big mistake by leading him into your plan of attack.  Utilizing assets in best way.  We need a commander at start of round who can see what enemy is doing roughly.

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12 minutes ago, Peerun said:

I won't read all of that, but we do need a commander role. Fast.

I've been saying that...For two years...Ha.

Best way to defeat your enemy is to blind him or only let him see what you want him to see as to decieve him.  Hitler was decieved into believing D-Day landings would be at shortest distance in North by US and British forces setting up dummy tanks and planes on ground and letting Germans see that, as well as well placed disinformation.  Knowing what your enemy is doing and is real, is the real battle.

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1 hour ago, PolishKruk said:

Your logic is terribly flawed. You claim rushing is the only way to play the game mode but instead of trying to use tactics that counter that tactic you promote tactics that specifically allow rushing to succeed. Rushing works because teams fail to defend, plain and simple. The counter to movement is not movement, the counter to movement is ambush. It's not ****ing rocket science people.

 

So why is rushing the primary strategy on the competitive level(In addition to public)?

 

It's easy to throw around platitudes like "use tactics" and "defend better", but the simple fact of the matter is that rushing is practically the sole strategy in Squad because it works. Going slow and steady on "defense" does not.

 

Check out any of these:

 

 

 

 

And it just goes on and on and on. Commanders, "Strategy", RP changes, none of this will solve anything. The fundamental issue is so obviously the game mode. There is literally no other game mode in the game where rushing is an effective strategy, and that's because it's the set order of capping that allows rushing to have any effect.

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United States Army field manual says:

 

 

Many military strategists have attempted to encapsulate a successful strategy in a set of principles. Sun Tzu defined 13 principles in his The Art of War while Napoleon listed 115 maxims. American Civil War General Nathan Bedford Forrest had only one: to "[get] there first with the most men".[18] The concepts given as essential in the United States Army Field Manual of Military Operations (FM 3–0) are:[19]

    Objective (Direct every military operation towards a clearly defined, decisive, and attainable objective)
    Offensive (Seize, retain, and exploit the initiative)
    Mass (Concentrate combat power at the decisive place and time)
    Economy of Force (Allocate minimum essential combat power to secondary efforts)
    Maneuver (Place the enemy in a disadvantageous position through the flexible application of combat power)
    Unity of Command (For every objective, ensure unity of effort under one responsible commander)
    Security (Never permit the enemy to acquire an unexpected advantage)
    Surprise (Strike the enemy at a time, at a place, or in a manner for which he is unprepared)
    Simplicity (Prepare clear, uncomplicated plans and clear, concise orders to ensure thorough understanding)

According to Greene and Armstrong, some strategists assert adhering to the fundamental principles guarantees victory, while others claim war is unpredictable and the general must be flexible in formulating a strategy. Others argue predictability is low, but could be increased if experts were to perceive the situation from both sides in the conflict.[20][not in citation given] Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke expressed strategy as a system of "ad hoc expedients" by which a general must take action while under pressure. These underlying principles of strategy have survived relatively unscathed as the technology of warfare has developed.

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4 minutes ago, Tartantyco said:

@XRobinson, what are you even on about, dude?

Well, obviously I think, we are talking about blitzing the flags before the other team does, securing victory in first 1 to 5 minutes.  So, naturally I'm looking for the real defense to that strategy and learning something about strategy too.  :-)

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1 hour ago, Tartantyco said:

 

So why is rushing the primary strategy on the competitive level(In addition to public)?

 

It's easy to throw around platitudes like "use tactics" and "defend better", but the simple fact of the matter is that rushing is practically the sole strategy in Squad because it works. Going slow and steady on "defense" does not.

 

Check out any of these:

 

 

 

 

And it just goes on and on and on. Commanders, "Strategy", RP changes, none of this will solve anything. The fundamental issue is so obviously the game mode. There is literally no other game mode in the game where rushing is an effective strategy, and that's because it's the set order of capping that allows rushing to have any effect.

Because rushing is a terribly easy strategy. Any idiot can charge at a point. It takes intelligence and coordination to establish multiple tactics across many units to overwhelm an enemy. Watch all of these matches. You can see the point every time where one team is destined to lose. One team gains the initiative and never loses it. Teams don't fall back from points fast enough when they lose a point. That opens up the floodgates for fast caps. Lack of FOBs and lack of understanding to have to fall two points back to set up a defence in front of the enemy leads to steamrolling.

 

At the same time when a team gets off balance they over commit resources to defending and never again threaten the enemy flags. That happens in conquest as well.

 

This isn't a "the game mode is bad" issue. This is a "people would rather hunt for kills and don't understand how to control objectives" issue. A few months ago I used to not think this was hard to see. I figured the lack of coordination between squads was because people are new. Now I'm realizing it's because people don't care to know any better and only execute the single tactic they can which is fight straight on in the face of the enemy, regardless of defending or attacking. People do not know how to flank, disengage, perform feints or holding attacks or anything more complicated than there is the enemy, let's march towards them and kill them.

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Just now, XRobinson said:

Well, obviously I think, we are talking about blitzing the flags before the other team does, securing victory in first 1 to 5 minutes.  So, naturally I'm looking for the real defense to that strategy and learning something about strategy too.  :-)

 

Squad isn't the real world. Especially not now, with magically generating resources, unlimited FOB/RP spawns, perfect information about the enemy's capabilities, and fixed objectives that have to be capped in order.

1 minute ago, PolishKruk said:

Because rushing is a terribly easy strategy. Any idiot can charge at a point. It takes intelligence and coordination to establish multiple tactics across many units to overwhelm an enemy. Watch all of these matches. You can see the point every time where one team is destined to lose. One team gains the initiative and never loses it. Teams don't fall back from points fast enough when they lose a point. That opens up the floodgates for fast caps. Lack of FOBs and lack of understanding to have to fall two points back to set up a defence in front of the enemy leads to steamrolling.

 

At the same time when a team gets off balance they over commit resources to defending and never again threaten the enemy flags. That happens in conquest as well.

 

This isn't a "the game mode is bad" issue. This is a "people would rather hunt for kills and don't understand how to control objectives" issue. A few months ago I used to not think this was hard to see. I figured the lack of coordination between squads was because people are new. Now I'm realizing it's because people don't care to know any better and only execute the single tactic they can which is fight straight on in the face of the enemy, regardless of defending or attacking. People do not know how to flank, disengage, perform feints or holding attacks or anything more complicated than there is the enemy, let's march towards them and kill them.

 

So when reality disagrees with you, you just ignore it? Fine. I see no point in further discussing this with you.

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I know that, but, real strategy and tactics can help in coming up with a solution even if game world is going to be a different one than real.

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2 hours ago, darricks said:

 

You are talking like a STR players, like 90% of the ppl arguing about this. 

First, staying in defense is retard cause during this time, the ennemy start to put you in ticket bleed. 
So you are forced to advance for disabling it... and u finaly turn in attack (which tend to cost more than defending in term of loss, and you are bleeding at the same time). 

Also, puting an ambush mean you are faster than the ennemy to defend the point u want. Most of the time, the flag who is important to create a good ticket bleed, is at equal distance for both team... So explain me how you ambush some-one you are not waiting? 

 

Second, As i say, its not a STR, you are not leading tone of little and obedient soliders.. 

Its a no-sense to ask ppl being good at coutering something easy to use, when u can do the same yourself... 

U know, its like making a 1vs1 cross, but purposely forcing youself doing it in tong

You misunderstand like the others. The WHOLE ****ing team doesn't move objective by objective! You assign. Squads to certain roles. Two squads hit your middle objective, one squad takes the rear objectives and one squad probes the enemy objectives.

 

Certain flags are meant to be battleground flags, those are meant to have ambushes at unless one team is incredibly slow. Fortress on fools road is very easy for militia to set up an ambush before the Russian logi for the fob rush gets anywhere close.

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19 minutes ago, Tartantyco said:

 

Squad isn't the real world. Especially not now, with magically generating resources, unlimited FOB/RP spawns, perfect information about the enemy's capabilities, and fixed objectives that have to be capped in order.

 

So when reality disagrees with you, you just ignore it? Fine. I see no point in further discussing this with you.

You can no longer argue against my points so you'll just dismiss me? That sounds like a win to me. Thank you sir. Good day.

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Just now, PolishKruk said:

You can no longer argue against my points so you'll just dismiss me? That sounds like a win to me. Thank you sir. Good day.

 

My argument is supported by video. Your argument isn't supported by anything.

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I think this is the strategy being utilized here:

General Nathan Bedford Forrest had only one: to "[get] there first with the most men"

 

There is nothing wrong, if it works.  Counter it by doing the same, see what happens. 

 

I think tartantyco is right though the game mode allows it to be utilized well. 

But, if we have commander, that sees this tactic, can come up with defense if he has the assets and ability to do so.

:-)

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