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Games won or lost in the 1st 5 minutes

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Always the same story, the flag system is all about rushing, its the simplest and easy way to win (I also see it on PR). 
Its the exact same logic on some game which are using the same conquest / ticket system (better exemple is wargame red dragon series). 

When the others SL doesnt know it, its already over in 5 minutes. 
I've seen some come back, but mostly cause the rushing team keep pushing like fools even if they have a serious ticket bleed advantage. 
 

map_3110.jpg

Its an exemple on jensen. 
Each team got great interest in pushing the highest flag possible getting a safe ability to cap the one they have left behind and securising their ticket bleed. 

With the low timer to prepare it and sometimes, the fact most of SL dont even understand a shit about how cap flag work, its hard to counter, but really easy to use. 
 

Over advantage is the low lvl training / knowledge it need to apply. U just have to say "OK WE ALL RUSH "THIS FLAG" and its free win". 
High lvl strategy for easy win... 

In the other hands, u can counter it by pushing the same way, but it lead to "struggling" situation with 70 men fighting in the same square and its really look like a big battlefield battle. 

Its also low on cost and risk, in worst case, if u fail, it mean the ennemies are putting lot of squad in defense, so u still have the time to come back in a middle/lower flag to at least prevent ticket bleed. 

 

Its like this in 90% of the game currently. 

Taliban rush petrol station on Kokan. 
Russian rush fortress on fool's road and militia go to village (which, when its well made, is ridiculous cause each team camp on a flag waiting the other team to come at them). 
Etc, etc, etc...

 

Edited by darricks

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Here my advice for less stressful beginning of the round: 

 

1. Don`t make a squad if you don`t want to be squad leader. 

2. As SL you will have to tell others to take the needed kits for the map. 

3. Open map as Yehorivka needs sniper kit.

4. Against Russian you need 2 AT. Against militia auto rifleman/Humvee gunner are good because his fire prevent them from rushing fast. In one round I killed as gunner in Humvee over 30 rebels, preventing them to flank and advance. 

5. "I need two medics" works only if the medics stay at the back and try to heal others. Kick medics, who are not doing their job.

6. If you are rebel you need their fast vehicles, so order everyone to spawn and take the vehicles.

7. Do mic check in the beginning. Kick players without mic/ desire to communicate. By this way you show there is active SL in the squad.

8. Order radio silence and coordinate your plan with the other squad before the round starts.

9. If you command vehicle and infantry order the infantry to find targets for the vehicle gunner and the vehicle to cover the advance of the infantry.

10. Don`t order humvee or APC to rush forward to enemy positions, there will be AT shooters waiting for you. This tactic works only with Rebels because their vehicles are expendable.            

11.Tell every one to disembark before you close to enemy positions, don`t do it under enemy fire.

12. If the enemy don`t know you are coming try to close the distance as much as possible, gather intel on the enemy positions then open fire.

13. Tell your squadmates to tell enemy`s locations and mark them on the grid so every squad gets the information.

14. Don`t be greedy and don`t take all the APCs or Humvees. 

15. As rebel use SPG9 truck to hunt down the BTR/Humvee. 

16. Your first weapons as SL is your binos. Watch for flanking enemies and mark their location, tell their movement to your squad.

17. Supply truck should supply all fobs, not only his squad`s fob.

 

I can continue this, there is so much to be told. Comment if you find these strategies useful. 

 

       

 

Edited by kiba3x

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33 minutes ago, kiba3x said:

6. If you are rebel you need their fast vehicles, so order everyone to spawn and take the vehicles.

 

Flawless advice there...

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6 hours ago, suds said:

I think this is a good idea. Leaves tactical disruption as an option but makes it a little less magical-army-deploy like. With this suggestion the rushing squad would need to take several vehicles and make a whole lot more noise in the process.

 

5 hours ago, Peerun said:

So rally point cooldown is reset after the SL exits a vehicle, FOBs can only become active if you resupply them with a logi truck and logi trucks spawn 15-20 minutes after the start of the match. Sounds reasonable.

 

Thank you for noticing my suggestion. This is exactly what I mean and I've been thinking about it how great Squad would be if it had this. Really wish Squad devs would see it and actually implemented this from the next update. I would really love to start seeing real infantry advancements carried out slowly through the terrain on maps like yehorivka instead of a quick jump from one place to another by driving a vehicle, using it as a clown car and setting up a rally point so that a SL can unrealistically morph an entire squad in there.

 

Whilst having this rally point cooldown reset after the SL exits a vehicle would slow infantry advance through the terrain and be more tactical, like you said, use of vehicles would still be there whether to make a disruption behind enemy lines and disembark troops in there, but only the troops that you actually had in the vehicle. Being able to set up a rally point would take a while as morphing an entire squad isn't realistic and isn't fair for the enemy to be ambushed from the back by an entire squad magically spawning behind them.

Edited by Friesen

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Another solution - atleast for rally points - would be to have a spawn time on the actual individual RP, so that you can only have 3 people spawn per minute or so...

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Could change the conditions for what constitutes a flag capture.  Such as a flag is only captured when a fuel depot is built there and a medical tent and perimeter defenses built....this takes a long time to build while your fighting it out, so it would only be built after the enemy was cleared from the area to a great degree.  Just an idea... :-)

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What i personally dont get. 

 

If they rush your first flag, and you identify. Why do you not just ignore it, pass by, and get a hold on the "middle" flag. Until this flag is capped, there wont be any bleed or anything. If you dont bleed, you will have all the time in the world, to slowly and methodically engage the rushed flag? 

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1 hour ago, runningDuck said:

What i personally dont get. 

 

If they rush your first flag, and you identify. Why do you not just ignore it, pass by, and get a hold on the "middle" flag. Until this flag is capped, there wont be any bleed or anything. If you dont bleed, you will have all the time in the world, to slowly and methodically engage the rushed flag? 

This ^

INS and Militia have to use their mobility somehow, figure it out. Expect an 1st or 2nd flag rush from the beginning

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3 hours ago, runningDuck said:

What i personally dont get. 

 

If they rush your first flag, and you identify. Why do you not just ignore it, pass by, and get a hold on the "middle" flag. Until this flag is capped, there wont be any bleed or anything. If you dont bleed, you will have all the time in the world, to slowly and methodically engage the rushed flag? 

 

I'm not totally au fait with the bleed/control mechanics, can you explain this? 

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3 hours ago, grimshadow said:

This ^

INS and Militia have to use their mobility somehow, figure it out. Expect an 1st or 2nd flag rush from the beginning

 

The fact is, most of the time, you are not playing a STR but you are, in best case, a Sl trying to explain/lead others SL who are not even able to keep their own soliders with them. 

Ppl want to win, so they use the easiest way to do it, and as long as dev doesnt stop it or force players to deal with the game in a different way, it wont change. 
 

Its called a metagame. 

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 was only thinking about this a couple of days ago.. but i believe you shouldnt need to cap the first couple of objectives as it draws a ling in the sand as to where the battle starts well at leas in smaller maps.. and its like the start of tug of war... where both teams have tension on the middle ground (rope) then it becomes a game of who can push the battle their way.. still leaves room for fob/ placements and what not just starts off not who can rush last flag syndrome..

 

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On 1/11/2017 at 0:37 AM, XRobinson said:

It was the narrow pass that enabled 4900 Spartans and other Greek Armies to stop the Persians long enough to get Greek ships into position to stop the invasion fleet.  And who says terrain isn't part of tactics... :-)

 

That's my point! =P

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6 hours ago, sgtcaboose said:

 

I'm not totally au fait with the bleed/control mechanics, can you explain this? 


Basically, if you have less flags than the enemy(less capped flags) you lose a predetermined number of tickets each minute(I think that number depends on the map)
The more flags the enemy has over you - the more tickets you lose each minute.
There's also some vaguely related events - "Militia defended flag1" and "Militia captured flag2" - the former I am not sure what it does, but the latter gives the capturing team some additional tickets. Also depends on the map.

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@Peerun, the "defended flag" message simply means that the enemy started capping a flag, and your team stopped the enemy cap before the flag neutralized and capped the flag back to full. It has no effect on tickets.

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2 hours ago, Peerun said:


Basically, if you have less flags than the enemy(less capped flags) you lose a predetermined number of tickets each minute(I think that number depends on the map)
The more flags the enemy has over you - the more tickets you lose each minute.
There's also some vaguely related events - "Militia defended flag1" and "Militia captured flag2" - the former I am not sure what it does, but the latter gives the capturing team some additional tickets. Also depends on the map.

 

That is entirely not correct. 

There only is bleed if one Team has more then 50% of all the Flags cappable. 

 

So even if you stop them 30 Minutes on their first flag, they wont bleed a single ticket as long as you dont have the majority of all flags on the map.

Edited by runningDuck

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http://squad.gamepedia.com/Tickets
Key phrase: Ticket Bleed
"Ticket Bleed: Owning more CPs than the opposing team will begin to incur a slight bleed penalty; the more CPs owned, the more bleed the opposing team incurs (applies to game mode Advance and Secure);"
 

Edited by Peerun

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I am sorry, but the Gamepedia is not correct then. 

 

Just try it out, open a Fire Range Game, Change the Map to Sumari v3, Cap the First Flag, wait 5 Minutes, change the Teams. U will see.

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Just now, runningDuck said:

I am sorry, but the Gamepedia is not correct then. 

 

Just try it out, open a Fire Range Game, Change the Map to Sumari v3, Cap the First Flag, wait 5 Minutes, change the Teams. U will see.


You're the one making opposing claims, maybe you should provide the proof. Make a video.

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Just now, runningDuck said:

I am sorry, but the Gamepedia is not correct then. 

 

Just try it out, open a Fire Range Game, Change the Map to Sumari v3, Cap the First Flag, wait 5 Minutes, change the Teams. U will see.

 

Yes ticket bleed doesnt always work the way he is supposed to be. 
But, I think in your case, it's cause it only work once you are more than the number of flag in the map (3 if there are 5), not just by taking the first one. 

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If there is 4 Flags in total you need to have 3. If there is seven it is 4. 

 

It doesnt matter if the other flags are capped or not. Your Team needs to have more then 50%. And afaik it is supposed to be like this. I read it somewhere, dont nail me where though. 

4 minutes ago, Peerun said:


You're the one making opposing claims, maybe you should provide the proof. Make a video.

 

Okay, will observe a game or two tonight and proof. 

Edited by runningDuck

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The solution is this (and I've been posting this on the forum like half a year ago when Squad was just released). That all the objectives already should be precapped and only the middle ones be neutral so the battle is going to be there. How many times I've won maps like Godorok by driving the BTR with my squad straight to the Radio station and just wiping out any militia coming to that flag which isn't fair. The battle should begin in the middle of the map.

 

And along with the previously mentioned cool down for the rally points when the SL exits the vehicle would prevent unrealistic morphing an entire squad behind enemy lines by driving a vehicle and placing a rally point. It would force the squads to place a rally point way ahead of the objective and advance on foot like in a real battle where the infantry slowly moves up through the terrain, through smoke and through suppressive fire. Not silly parking a vehicle behind a building, spawn on a rally and taking enemy from the back all of sudden.

Edited by Friesen

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Using Rally/FOB as a teleporter is currently a problem.

Its why i've asked to improve to put a rally point without ennemy presence to 100m instead of just 50. 

 

Also fob should be longer to put in work, to prevent suicidal logic dropping to make spawn an entire team to a far back flag. 

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For me the biggest issue is suicidal vehicle driving behind enemy lines and morphing an entire squads into a rally point. There should be a cooldown reset after exiting a vehicle to prevent this. Otherwise what's the point of transport trucks if I can just take the clowncar with 2 guys and  tell the squad "Hey guys just keep fighting there and when you die spawn on the rally we gonna come up behind them when I drive my clowncar behind them.

Edited by Friesen

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logi truck / truck should be more weaker. 

We made a game vs a team once. It was on logar, they were Militia. 
They rushed by our main to poppy, dropped a fob, made all the team spawn. 
We managed to hit the truck with a LAW right in the flank but it was not enough.

If trucks were one shootable by rockets, it cool prevent lot of things of this kind, or punish team not covering all main acces to their back area. 

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I've been in games where the initial logi truck rush squad has been wiped out, leaving the logi truck so far away that it's essentially out of play for the rest of the round which is then a disadvantage.

 

Another idea to throw into the idea ring:

 

Dropping supplies on a new, inactive FOB only reduces the timer by 2 minutes (as well as increasing supplies). 

This prevents insta-remote-spawn and gives the other team time to find that "logi truck sound I just heard" and wipe out the FOB before it becomes an issue.

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