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zukster

Games won or lost in the 1st 5 minutes

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zukster   

Wanted to talk about others opinions on the 1st 5 minutes of the match. It seems to be way too fast and usually (not always) determine how the rest of the game plays out. Is this a problem with anyone else? If so how can it be fixed. I've heard people say PR didn't have certain spawns to start the match. Maybe no logi or only transport trucks?

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Psyrus   

I certainly do think that the current logistics based system is too simplistic, but it is hard to comment on it based on the fact that we know it is still in an evolving state, so until it gets to the beta stage and the system is finalized, I will refrain from commenting. One opinion I will put forth though, is that I would like to see (in the near future, while it is evolving) the removal of the *insta-fob* when supplies are dropped. I think it should cut the delay by around half (from 7 minutes to 3 minutes) for the fob to become spawnable. I don't like the "rush a supply truck behind their lines with 3 guys, drop fob, supply, boom whole team can spawn there" meta that comes out of the current system. 

Edited by Psyrus

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I certainly do think that the current logistics based system is too simplistic, but it is hard to comment on it based on the fact that we know it is still in an evolving state, so until it gets to the beta stage and the system is finalized, I will refrain from commenting. One opinion I will put forth though, is that I would like to see (in the near future, while it is evolving) the removal of the *insta-fob* when supplies are dropped. I think it should cut the delay by around half (from 7 minutes to 3 minutes) for the fob to become spawnable. I don't like the "rush a supply truck behind their lines with 3 guys, drop fob, supply, boom whole team can spawn there" meta that comes out of the current system. 


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elerik   

Before logistic on scene we named it "fob jump" its able to do it again but risk of supply truck. Its "all in" game tactic sometimes it works sometimes its not.  

Edited by elerik

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Smee   

Would like to see timed infantry spawn on first flags for bigger maps. That should stop first flags rush. There should still be room to have a rush.

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T B1zzle   

I think the games at a enjoyable state. Seems pretty balanced currently.

If a game ends within first 5 mins I believe that's a good thing. That's how battles are sometimes, You can't really get around that.

Edited by T B1zzle

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The game is never lost in first five minutes, you can only continue losing afterwards if your team's squad leaders continually refuse to react to enemy movement and the evolving match (enemy rushed your first/second flag, you got backcapped, etc.).

 

What usually loses the game is one or several squads who just won't fall back and help their team because "they've got contacts" (said contacts usually spawning from an active FOB or a rally nearby, thus an endless supply of enemies to engage before they "can fall back").

 

As for PR, there were several mechanics in place to prevent rushing. Players were prohibited from attacking the first cappable enemy flag until it has been first capped by the enemy team, then it was fair game. Certain assets (such as transport helicopters, main battle tanks or jets) spawned 10-20 minutes into the match as well, but that wasn't a rule, in most map layouts the team already started with enough mobility to rush. You have to understand though, maps in PR were larger than those we have in Squad, the distances between objectives much greater, so even if you wanted to rush, the enemy had a very fair chance of simply getting to the objective faster than you ever could (unless the teams were uneven in terms of experience and one side had a hard time getting out of main, which also happens very often in Squad).

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23 minutes ago, Togisan said:

Fob system should be changed to pr system. But we need special kits, and kit drop dynamics in squad first..

 

A far better system than the one in PR is what we need(And is what is planned). And you're not going to get kit drops in Squad. Special kits don't have any effect on rushing.

 

If you don't want rushing, you'll need another game mode than AAS. Having a few objectives in known locations that are cappable in a linear fashion allows teams to rush them. You need a game mode where none of that is true. The introduction of Conquest mode is a good step towards this, but until a proper logistics system is implemented, things are going to be borked. Finally, no heavy assets should be available at round start. Their presence always ends up with a squad taking one for a bum rush, which generally has a negative effect on the gameplay experience of one team depending on the outcome. The current vehicle spawning and claiming system is not very good, and must be replaced.

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Friesen   

I've always wanted in SQUAD so that after you've been in a vehicle, you can't put a rally point or a fob straight away but have to wait around 3 minutes.

 

That prevents this silly driving vehicles behind enemies, setting up a fob or even a rally point in this case is unrealistic. Why should just 2 people drive behind the enemies easily and then put a rally point so a whole squad can spawn? That shouldn't be allowed. So please devs, set up a timer that you can't put a rally or a fob after you've exited the vehicle but have to wait 3 minutes.

 

This will prevent this unrealistic clowncar driving behind enemies and setting up spawns there. The whole flow of the battle would change because the infantry as in real life would have to attack an objective on foot from the distance. Not like now, most players just drive the vehicle behind the enemy objective or somewhere close to it, set up a rally and just get there straight away.

 

And because you're able to set up a rally point after driving a vehicle without any time penalty, it excludes all the realistic infantry advancement that is carried out slowly through the terrain on foot.

 

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1 hour ago, Tartantyco said:

 

A far better system than the one in PR is what we need(And is what is planned). And you're not going to get kit drops in Squad. Special kits don't have any effect on rushing.

 

If you don't want rushing, you'll need another game mode than AAS. Having a few objectives in known locations that are cappable in a linear fashion allows teams to rush them. You need a game mode where none of that is true. The introduction of Conquest mode is a good step towards this, but until a proper logistics system is implemented, things are going to be borked. Finally, no heavy assets should be available at round start. Their presence always ends up with a squad taking one for a bum rush, which generally has a negative effect on the gameplay experience of one team depending on the outcome. The current vehicle spawning and claiming system is not very good, and must be replaced.

 

I don't think AAS or the vehicle spawning system is to blame here, we simply need larger maps than we currently have, so the enemies just can't physically reach our  first objectives before we had the chance to take control of them. With the small maps, unless you want to decrease the number of objectives, you have to put them closer together, in effect closer to the enemy/friendly main base. Since we also don't have deep water, high unreachable mountains, large and dense urban areas or other natural buffer zones to slow down enemy progress the maps in effect seem even smaller, because you can navigate around them very easily and fast, thus making rushing a viable option.

 

With all that being said, rushing is most viable in public matches, against disorganized and inexperienced teams who take several minutes just to sort out their vehicles and start moving out of the base, you can't really fault the game mechanics here.

Edited by MultiSquid

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SHO-SHIN   

Perhaps a max advance line limit is needed for a certain time at the start, and this can be different for each faction on each map?

 

 

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Idea:

Have a front line drawn say halfway through the map, could be designed to be variable each time map is played, and start of match begins at front lines with units spawning right at front lines.  The vehicles still must start at base and half team can spawn at front and half at base to bring vehicles to front.  Just an idea.  Tear it up now.

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3 hours ago, MultiSquid said:

 

I don't think AAS or the vehicle spawning system is to blame here, we simply need larger maps than we currently have, so the enemies just can't physically reach our  first objectives before we had the chance to take control of them. With the small maps, unless you want to decrease the number of objectives, you have to put them closer together, in effect closer to the enemy/friendly main base. Since we also don't have deep water, high unreachable mountains, large and dense urban areas or other natural buffer zones to slow down enemy progress the maps in effect seem even smaller, because you can navigate around them very easily and fast, thus making rushing a viable option.

 

With all that being said, rushing is most viable in public matches, against disorganized and inexperienced teams who take several minutes just to sort out their vehicles and start moving out of the base, you can't really fault the game mechanics here.

 

Of course they are to blame. The entire point of rushing is to disrupt the cap of a flag to halt the enemy's advance while you cap your flags. It only works if flags have to be capped in a set order. If your rushing doesn't stop the enemy from capping flags, it's pointless. And rushing is generally most effective when the rushing team has a heavy asset for transport and support(HMMWV and BTR) that requires substantial firepower to clear from the flag.

 

Neither is the rushing issue limited to first flag rushing. The entire game is about rushing currently. You drop one guy on the first flags and rush everything else to the middle and beyond. The team that does not do this loses. And due to the massive distances involved on some maps, rushing is further incentivized because once a flag is capped, the rushing team is always best equipped to move on that flag again. This is what causes the domino capping effect.

 

The fundamental issue is the game mode. Rushing doesn't work on Conquest. It doesn't work on Insurgency. It works on AAS.

 

1 hour ago, Shoshin said:

Perhaps a max advance line limit is needed for a certain time at the start, and this can be different for each faction on each map?

 

Let's not introduce these kinds of artificial barriers. It must arise naturally from well-designed game mechanics. The game mode is the issue, not 

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T B1zzle   

You cannot balance fast games. 300 Spartans didn't kill all the Persians because of faulty game mechanics... It's skill, tactics, & Communication.  Welcome to Squad!

Edited by T B1zzle

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8 hours ago, T B1zzle said:

You cannot balance fast games. 300 Spartans didn't kill all the Persians because of faulty game mechanics... It's skill, tactics, & Communication.  Welcome to Squad!

It was the narrow pass that enabled 4900 Spartans and other Greek Armies to stop the Persians long enough to get Greek ships into position to stop the invasion fleet.  And who says terrain isn't part of tactics... :-)

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SHO-SHIN   
12 hours ago, Tartantyco said:

Let's not introduce these kinds of artificial barriers. It must arise naturally from well-designed game mechanics. The game mode is the issue, not 

I kinda agree, but my solution is easy, quick and perhaps effective - draw the line say on each sides point before the mid point, and keep the timer short to say 5 min's.

 

Sorta encourages setting up in your territory (a little) and stops the behind enemy lines rush at the start of the game.

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Japub   
17 hours ago, MultiSquid said:

 

I don't think AAS or the vehicle spawning system is to blame here, we simply need larger maps than we currently have, so the enemies just can't physically reach our  first objectives before we had the chance to take control of them. With the small maps, unless you want to decrease the number of objectives, you have to put them closer together, in effect closer to the enemy/friendly main base. Since we also don't have deep water, high unreachable mountains, large and dense urban areas or other natural buffer zones to slow down enemy progress the maps in effect seem even smaller, because you can navigate around them very easily and fast, thus making rushing a viable option.

 

With all that being said, rushing is most viable in public matches, against disorganized and inexperienced teams who take several minutes just to sort out their vehicles and start moving out of the base, you can't really fault the game mechanics here.

 

This. ^

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Rushing is used constantly on clan battles. Just watch CCFN. So no, it's not just "viable in public matches". The AAS game mode rewards rushing, it's as simple as that.

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suds   
21 hours ago, Friesen said:

I've always wanted in SQUAD so that after you've been in a vehicle, you can't put a rally point or a fob straight away but have to wait around 3 minutes.

 

That prevents this silly driving vehicles behind enemies, setting up a fob or even a rally point in this case is unrealistic. Why should just 2 people drive behind the enemies easily and then put a rally point so a whole squad can spawn? That shouldn't be allowed. So please devs, set up a timer that you can't put a rally or a fob after you've exited the vehicle but have to wait 3 minutes.

 

This will prevent this unrealistic clowncar driving behind enemies and setting up spawns there. The whole flow of the battle would change because the infantry as in real life would have to attack an objective on foot from the distance. Not like now, most players just drive the vehicle behind the enemy objective or somewhere close to it, set up a rally and just get there straight away.

 

And because you're able to set up a rally point after driving a vehicle without any time penalty, it excludes all the realistic infantry advancement that is carried out slowly through the terrain on foot.

 

I think this is a good idea. Leaves tactical disruption as an option but makes it a little less magical-army-deploy like. With this suggestion the rushing squad would need to take several vehicles and make a whole lot more noise in the process.

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Peerun   

So rally point cooldown is reset after the SL exits a vehicle, FOBs can only become active if you resupply them with a logi truck and logi trucks spawn 15-20 minutes after the start of the match. Sounds reasonable.

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