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Graphic exploiters / cheaters

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it is tempting to edit stuff, my pc is pretty low end and the advantages would be nice.... but I plan to play squad for a long time. The tactics I play with now include all the graphics goodies I can afford and will hopefully mean that when things do get locked down I wont need to adjust anything.

 

BTW I spend a lot of time running on top of walls. 

 

it is no fun winning without challenge. 

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On 7. 1. 2017 at 7:28 AM, Rainmaker said:

~ post

 

While your findings may seem alarming, I'd just like to remind everyone here that a very similar result can be achieved without any .ini tweaks, simply by turning shadows, foliage and view distance to low. Especially the shadow setting when on low has a huge impact on visibility of enemies and most of the maps look nothing alike with the shadows turned on/off.

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i stopped playing DF2 because of the ability to disable foliage.  i was just some jack-hole low crawling in a plush african grass field trying to be sneaky, and getting head shotted as if they could see me lol.

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@Rainmaker "scalability" (what you refer to exploiting) is a requirement of PC games due to the disparate hardware that people own. 

 

The ability to scale graphics settings isn't going away anytime soon. You are essentially requesting us not to support the low end hardware users of our customer base. Your images almost exclusively point out scalability. 

 

If you are looking for a level playing field console games can provide that. 

 

This is just a game with min / max hardware requirements we are trying to meet.

 

Will we attempt to raise that bar over time if the performance increases? - Of course. 

 

Is it a extremely high priority item at this point in the games life cycle? - No, of course not. I expect the next big changes on that front will happen during our next optimization pass around mid 2017. 

 

Have to take the entire game and its development in a full dimensional context and not only in the context of the experience today. Early access is about being along for the ride.. better or worse.. until the finish line. 

 

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i assume at a certain point a minimum amount of grass and bushes will be permanently affixed with this engine.

 

  @IrOnTaXi   Is reshade and sweetFX even possible to incorporate towards the game upon release, or is to much red tape- third party mess and harsware intense to hassle with?

Edited by chaz69

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49 minutes ago, chaz69 said:

i assume at a certain point a minimum amount of grass and bushes will be permanently affixed with this engine.

 

  @IrOnTaXi   Is reshade and sweetFX even possible to incorporate towards the game upon release, or is to much red tape- third party mess to hassle with?

I heard in Joint Ops there was some sort of transparency added to character models when they were in foliage or something? That would be a good way to balance the two settings. For the less grassy portions in low settings the character would still blend in better.

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lol here lately im the guy who crawls in 1/2 meter high grass for concealment only for enemy on 6 year old hardware laughing as they shoot me dead. 

  i never did play  joint ops,  i hear it was fun though.

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On 1/7/2017 at 0:21 PM, Anderson2981 said:

this is exactly why i dont bother playing anymore till beta or release comes out. hell the exploited screen shots look comparable or worse than prbf2.

Definitely worse, in PR:BF2 they designed their textures and models with the polycount limitations in mind to avoid making the mod look like that, the game just looked simplistic as opposed to just ugly.

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I like what the devs have to say here regarding scalability. As long as there is the tournament mode (and people who host and keep it active) players like Rainmaker should be fine as well.

 

BTW: a bit OT, but there is a youtube channel for low spec graphics. Here's an example on UE4 as well:

 

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On 1/10/2017 at 4:15 AM, IrOnTaXi said:

@Rainmaker ....

 

 

@IrOnTaXi Apologies for the bluntness but this is a particularly weak response from the dev team. Embedded are my thoughts on the response you have provided to Rainmaker: 

 

Quote

"scalability" (what you refer to exploiting) is a requirement of PC games due to the disparate hardware that people own. 

Whilst it is absolutely true that all commercially viable video games require a level of scalability, it is not the crux of @Rainmaker's proposition, which is that as a result of excessive scalability we are seeing Squad transform from a tactical game into another regular FPS full of graphical exploits that allow unforeseen advantages to players who choose to use ridiculous graphics settings. Regardless of the commercial reasoning, the result to your customers is that we are playing against players with x-ray vision - which is not very fun and would not make me want to recommend this game to a friend. 

 

Quote

The ability to scale graphics settings isn't going away anytime soon. You are essentially requesting us not to support the low end hardware users of our customer base. Your images almost exclusively point out scalability. 

Once again, the point is not to remove all scalability, it is to place some reasonable limits to the scalability such that it allows for players to customise it to their needs while still providing a reasonably level playing field, i.e. that everyone has grass where grass should be. 

A logical extension of your point here would be to conclude that deleting grass, foliage and wall textures from my game files would be fully supported as my GPU doesn't have enough memory to store them. This is just about scaling to my hardware requirements, and any benefits I receive during game play are purely coincidental. 

 

Quote

If you are looking for a level playing field console games can provide that. 

This is quite rude and dismissive of your player-base. Rainmaker's argument is not that s/he wants everyone running the same graphics settings and that no-one is allowed to use a 4K monitor because someone wants to play on a 1280*1024 monitor; it is that we should all see grass in a field that is supposed to have grass in it.

 

Quote

This is just a game with min / max hardware requirements we are trying to meet.

The developer sets the min/max hardware requirements, you have made it sound like the min/max is pre-ordained and decided independently of the development team to shirk responsibility. 

 

Quote

Will we attempt to raise that bar over time if the performance increases? - Of course. 

If the current 'bar' is that one set of players has grass in a field and another set of players does not, the bar certainly has a ways to go. 

 

Quote

Is it a extremely high priority item at this point in the games life cycle? - No, of course not. I expect the next big changes on that front will happen during our next optimization pass around mid 2017. 

Naturally there are development priorities, and we won't see a fix tomorrow - but it would be good to know that fairness in game play is at the core of the development mentality. 

 

Quote

Have to take the entire game and its development in a full dimensional context and not only in the context of the experience today. Early access is about being along for the ride.. better or worse.. until the finish line. 

If this is the case, why not force all players to have a baseline setting that provides for reasonably fair play and and have those unable to play at those settings 'be along for the ride, better or worse, until the finish line?' 

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A work in progress needs more flexibility. Why is this such a difficult thing to understand?

I play nightly for a few hours on a few servers, I might get a suspicious death in what I thought was cover once a week. It could just be luck, it could be exploiters, not a big deal...

 

All is well, carry on.

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@sgtcaboose Did Irontaxi say at this moment they won't make the game unplayable for old pcs, and you just say they should make the game unplayable for older pcs?

Edited by CageMatchKimsey

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I think locking the client files is a thing that needs to happen.

 

i.e you can adjust within the game only, this can then be worked on, controlled and improved - and what is there is available for all to use or not use as they wish.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Shoshin said:

I think locking the client files is a thing that needs to happen.

 

i.e you can adjust within the game only, this can then be worked on, controlled and improved - and what is there is available for all to use or not use as they wish.

 

 

 

The first part of this has already started. EAC is actively working on file integrity checks and a few other checks to ensure the game files are wholly intact. This will take some time to get rolled out and iron all the bugs out. But we are working with them on it.

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3 minutes ago, Odin said:

 

The first part of this has already started. EAC is actively working on file integrity checks and a few other checks to ensure the game files are wholly intact. This will take some time to get rolled out and iron all the bugs out. But we are working with them on it.

Can you make EAC ignore the intro file? :P

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Scalability it´s a convenient word to make good bussines and take a good game and make it exploit free? I´m not against you as developers make good money, in fact i hope that. But i bought a game where i thought at least a decent amount of fair play.

good to know...

 

I would say, if you want to scale the game it´s ok,( i´ll run from all open servers like hell )  but let server owners decide the rules of scalability

Edited by xisco

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14 hours ago, sgtcaboose said:

 

@IrOnTaXi Apologies for the bluntness but this is a particularly weak response from the dev team. Embedded are my thoughts on the response you have provided to Rainmaker: 

 

Nothing wrong with bluntness.. i can be blunter if you like.

 

Quote

Whilst it is absolutely true that all commercially viable video games require a level of scalability, it is not the crux of @Rainmaker's proposition, which is that as a result of excessive scalability we are seeing Squad transform from a tactical game into another regular FPS full of graphical exploits that allow unforeseen advantages to players who choose to use ridiculous graphics settings. Regardless of the commercial reasoning, the result to your customers is that we are playing against players with x-ray vision - which is not very fun and would not make me want to recommend this game to a friend. 

 

This is the state we are in now. Hopefully the overall engine and game performance improve (Through conscious actions) in the future so these settings can be deemed more level. You may not be aware but they have already come a long way from the past and you are "snap shotting" this evolution somewhere in the middle. 

 

Quote

 

Once again, the point is not to remove all scalability, it is to place some reasonable limits to the scalability such that it allows for players to customise it to their needs while still providing a reasonably level playing field, i.e. that everyone has grass where grass should be. 

A logical extension of your point here would be to conclude that deleting grass, foliage and wall textures from my game files would be fully supported as my GPU doesn't have enough memory to store them. This is just about scaling to my hardware requirements, and any benefits I receive during game play are purely coincidental. 

 

That's just talking silly. Grass isn't meant to be concealment and we keep it as short as we can while maintaining visual effect of it. I think the next work will be done on fields and crops so we can ensure those are covering players in most situations. 

 

 

Quote

This is quite rude and dismissive of your player-base. Rainmaker's argument is not that s/he wants everyone running the same graphics settings and that no-one is allowed to use a 4K monitor because someone wants to play on a 1280*1024 monitor; it is that we should all see grass in a field that is supposed to have grass in it.

 

Grass will never be rendered in such a manner. (ie it will never be concealment) It's best to play with that in mind. Not only is grass draw distance scaled but it is also density scaled. Hopefully in the future we can lean more heavily on density scaling than distance scaling. (it is one of the more expensive overdraw components in open world games and as such always a ripe optimization target)

 

Quote

 

The developer sets the min/max hardware requirements, you have made it sound like the min/max is pre-ordained and decided independently of the development team to shirk responsibility. 

 

I think your misunderstood.. i was talking about the hardware requirements we set for ourselves. We feel obligated to meet them

 

Quote

If the current 'bar' is that one set of players has grass in a field and another set of players does not, the bar certainly has a ways to go. 

 

Hopefully as per above it will be a point where there is more or less grass.

 

Quote

Naturally there are development priorities, and we won't see a fix tomorrow - but it would be good to know that fairness in game play is at the core of the development mentality. 

 

Judge the finished product as what you are requesting simply can't be a priority right now with active code development still ongoing. Once another optimization pass or two is done and the engine/game code evolves we should have more room for these items to be addressed.  

 

Quote

If this is the case, why not force all players to have a baseline setting that provides for reasonably fair play and and have those unable to play at those settings 'be along for the ride, better or worse, until the finish line?' 

 

We have made a conscious decision to use these settings for the time being. We consider these the current baseline settings. 

 

Sorry if anyone feels im a bit harsh but really at this point we have heard it all in terms of what we are doing right and wrong. We still read every thread, post and tweet (They are fed directly into a channel in our slack) but we have grown much more aware of 1. The places we can actually affect change 2. What actually transfers into customer satisfaction.  

 

This particular discussion for example has been an evolution. We are aware of it and it is part of our plan to address to the best of our abilities.  

 

Any other questions?  Feel free to ask I will answer. 

 

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21 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Ah yes. DF2. Novalogic and their "Voxels"... Actually if you're familiar with the Delta Force series as I am then you realize how similar Squad and Delta Force Black Hawk Down or Joint Operations look in comparison right?

 

Delta force 2 was fantastic.. great game

 

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@IrOnTaXi

Thank you for the follow-up response, this is a lot more informative! I've just snipped the parts which I have responses on: 

 

 

 

Quote

That's just talking silly. Grass isn't meant to be concealment and we keep it as short as we can while maintaining visual effect of it. I think the next work will be done on fields and crops so we can ensure those are covering players in most situations. 

Grass will never be rendered in such a manner. (ie it will never be concealment) It's best to play with that in mind. Not only is grass draw distance scaled but it is also density scaled. Hopefully in the future we can lean more heavily on density scaling than distance scaling. (it is one of the more expensive overdraw components in open world games and as such always a ripe optimization target)

Sorry, I think we might be talking at cross purposes here. I meant to mean the grass in crop fields that range from waist to head height; I feel like you might be discussing the clumps of grass and/or the 15cm tall grass in grassy areas? 

 

On the regular short grass around the hills etc., as an aside, it is particularly frustrating that your view is obstructed by something that is not providing concealment, so that would be a nice adjustment down the line. 

 


 

Quote

 

I think your misunderstood.. i was talking about the hardware requirements we set for ourselves. We feel obligated to meet them


 

Absolutely fair. 

 

Quote

Judge the finished product as what you are requesting simply can't be a priority right now with active code development still ongoing. Once another optimization pass or two is done and the engine/game code evolves we should have more room for these items to be addressed.  

This is good to know, and something for us to look forward to. 

 

Quote

 

We still read every thread  .... This particular discussion for example has been an evolution. We are aware of it and it is part of our plan to address to the best of our abilities.  

 

Any other questions?  Feel free to ask I will answer.

 

This is all I (and presumably @Rainmaker) were hoping to hear, just that the issue will be under consideration moving forward (not to imply it wasn't already, of course)

 

12 hours ago, CageMatchKimsey said:

@sgtcaboose Did Irontaxi say at this moment they won't make the game unplayable for old pcs, and you just say they should make the game unplayable for older pcs?

Yes... should the game scale to cope with a Pentium III? Should I be allowed to play via ASCII with only text input? Obviously not. 

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11 minutes ago, sgtcaboose said:

Yes... should the game scale to cope with a Pentium III? Should I be allowed to play via ASCII with only text input? Obviously not. 

 

 FX6300s with r9 280s get 25-30 fps.  Computers less than 4 years old.

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28 minutes ago, CageMatchKimsey said:

 

 FX6300s with r9 280s get 25-30 fps.  Computers less than 4 years old.

Vishera is an architecture from 2011. And it was significantly weaker than 2011's intel chip, only on the level of first gen Core i. So you can call it ~2008 or 8 years old pc.

that's a lesson for you, next time don't buy an AMD crap that is dead on arrival

 

 

on the topic though:

all these tweaks do not help with cpu bottlenecks. only makes game run on GT 720 and other office-level gfx cards, so it is definetely should be locked and forbidden.

 

 

 

Edited by lisasu

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8 minutes ago, CageMatchKimsey said:

 

 FX6300s with r9 280s get 25-30 fps.  Computers less than 4 years old.

 

Whilst this is true, it doesn't reflect that the minimum requirements as set by the devs have a i5 2500k which is six years old, however that was a very good CPU at the time and indeed is able to outperform your CPU, . I could buy a computer today that wouldn't run min specs at 1080p, that isn't the point. 

 

vDd9WSn.png

 

But then again, current generation processors can be 10x worse performing than the 2500k so it is not exactly 'new' and 'old', so much as 'fast' and 'slow'

tJSVSJc.png

 

1 hour ago, lisasu said:

Vishera is an architecture from 2011. And it was significantly weaker than 2011's intel chip, only on the level of first gen Core i. So you can call it ~2008 or 8 years old pc.

that's a lesson for you, next time don't buy an AMD crap that is dead on arrival

 

I don't think this sort of AMD bashing is very helpful mate. 

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