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xxxWINGNUTSxxx

Knockdown, Body Armor, Killing

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It would be cool if there was sometimes a random knockdown effect when you get hit with a full power rifle cartridge bullet or higher, similar to how you get knocked down (but not die) when a vehicle hits you. I've seen videos where soldiers get hit by probably a Russian full power rifle cartridge bullet (7.62x54mmR) and the bullet doesn't penetrate their armor but they collapse to the ground from the impact.

 

Also it would be cool if body armor was factored into this where you have a RNG system where sometimes the bullet doesn't penetrate if it hits the armor plating and does a random amount of minimal damage.

 

 

Another suggestion is to be able to kill incapacitated soldiers. When you get hit enough you go in to an incapacitated mode where you have to wait for a medic but you are otherwise invincible to death, which is totally unrealistic. It would be cool if in that mode you have an animation where you squirm around on the ground a little to show that you are still alive and can be killed for good. This eliminates the need to have to babysit the body of a soldier every time you down someone.

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There have been games that have done things like this. Intruder was one that was mechanically funny, but had some amazing gameplay derived from those mechanics.

I know one of the armas had it when shot your aim would "knock" in a random direction. 

It is a viable mechanic when done correctly. However the user experience with such a mechanic can be problematic. 

Although I doubt we will see things like that in squad at least for the time being.

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I too would like to see some kind of additional effect beyond just taking damage when shot. Being knocked down by larger caliber weapons would be interesting, but it would take much more animating than simply adding a "flinch" effect, or draining stamina when hit.

 

The devs and community generally dislike RNG, (which I agree with) since it mitigates the skill factor. I don't see there being an exception for RNG armor penetration, since again that places the power in the hands of chance and not the players themselves. They also have said they will not allow killing incapacitated players.

 

Dev response to killing incapacitated soldiers:

 

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Being knocked down adds a random number generator factor to a game that is currently all about skill and tactics to win. To me, this is no different than adding the random ability for soldiers to trip and fall down or fail when vaulting over a wall. You take the skill out of the game for a randomized factor that makes killing someone or being killed cheaper and easier. 

 

Body armor, in my opinion, is way too complex for a game like this. They have stated over and over again that they do not intend to be a simulator and I think factoring in body armor is probably one of the biggest steps there is to being a simulator. Damage based on hit location should change, but I think body armor is a step too far away from what the devs seem to be looking for. I don't think it's a bad idea for certain games, but I do believe it would be bad for Squad.

 

Killing incapacitated soldiers I wouldn't be against, but at the same time you have to realize if you add that ability people would continue to shoot at dead bodies until they could confirm they are dead. When you wipe a squad, everyone respawns anyways, but when you get into a protracted firefight, you're now have the potential of taking people away from the firefight to execute incap'd soldiers. I say no simply because it won't add any real benefit to the game and will only serve for slower paced fighting.

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Tripping when walking might be totally random but getting knocked down by a bullet is not random. Someone had to intentionally concentrate and use their skill to put that bullet in you in the first place. I see getting randomly knocked down from that bullet as just another penalty for letting yourself get shot. 

 

Adding armor shouldn't decrease the skill level of the game. After all, Counter-Strike, the FPS that is considered the top skill based competitive multiplayer e-sports game in the world has armor as a feature.

 

As for the dev saying no killing incapacitated soldiers because "gameplay and personal ethical reasons", how is having to babysit a downed body until it despawns good for gameplay? If a player uses his skill to kill a player he should get that kill because he earned it. Instead the current system leaves it up to chance that an enemy medic will revive and nullify his kill, now that's randomness not skill.

 

"Personal ethical reasons". Really? So it's not ethical to shoot a soldier a couple more times to finish him but it IS ethical to saw him in half with bullets and explosives to incapacitate him? It IS ethical to go to war and murder other soldiers because your government needs more crude oil? This isn't a Geneva conventions simulator.

Edited by xxxWINGNUTSxxx

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I don't know why people got to limit this game in every possible way when there are plenty of other dumb and simple games like that on the market. Battlefield, call of duty, counter strike....... Squad is something different. And every new guy discovering it states its ArmA killer, and is considering Squad to be a realistic or even a simulator. Just check steam reviews, hell you can even see that right here on the forums from time to time.

 

I am not stating Squad should be state of the art military simulator (I wouldn't have anything against that either ;)) but I have seen people here talk down on ''weapon low ready stance'' for example claiming its too complex, its not supposed to be a simulator, (this one is the best) its JUST A GAME why does it matter. When infact it does, it makes the game look and feel proper without a friendly constantly aiming his gun at your head every time he looks at you.

 

I can connect this feature to Neo from matrix feature we had in old updates where we could sprint so fast in a zig zag pattern to evade bullets and single handedly wipe whole squads out alone. Now its not like that, you are actually in a human body with combat gear and it pays off to stay with your squad (most often) which is what this game is trying to promote. And now everybody is loving it.

 

Depth, details and realism of the game tops every other simple and shallow game, because it emulates a real thing, it looks and feels the same hence it means something. Simple games are for kids that are concerned about having a hello kitty m4 skin, it means nothing to a guy pursuing a proper team played tactical FPS with real life look and feel to it.

 

There are plenty other features that are in the same category. Body armor, vehicle armor, unable to sprint in water, consequences of being hit like can't aim properly or no stamina, safety function on weapons, functions and features that make firebases more effective to not being discarded by a shallow in the box thinking of ''never put a fob on the flag thing'' etc... I could go on for ever.

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, xxxWINGNUTSxxx said:

"Personal ethical reasons". Really? So it's not ethical to shoot a soldier a couple more times to finish him but it IS ethical to saw him in half with bullets and explosives to incapacitate him? It IS ethical to go to war and murder other soldiers because your government needs more crude oil? This isn't a Geneva conventions simulator.

There is a huge difference between engaging an armed, dangerous enemy combatant and executing an unconscious guy lying in a pool of his own blood. Hence the "ethical reasons".

 

As for me, I don't really like adding features with random chance, but getting knocked down if you get shot from a long enough distance or with small enough calibre bullet that didn't have the energy to penetrate, that actually sounds good to me. Why the hell not. It would have to be quite a rare occurence, otherwise we'd have people tripping all over the place, that would just look silly.

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7 hours ago, MultiSquid said:

There is a huge difference between engaging an armed, dangerous enemy combatant and executing an unconscious guy lying in a pool of his own blood. Hence the "ethical reasons".

 

As for me, I don't really like adding features with random chance, but getting knocked down if you get shot from a long enough distance or with small enough calibre bullet that didn't have the energy to penetrate, that actually sounds good to me. Why the hell not. It would have to be quite a rare occurence, otherwise we'd have people tripping all over the place, that would just look silly.

 

It has not to be random, and lets put realism on the side. Its about gameplay. 
I want ppl who shot & hit in first to be reward so, if you are a good tactician or a patient player, you are rewarded by improving your chance to kill your ennemy. 
So its simple, you are hit : you get a little knockback of 0.15 secs long, just enough to prevent your opponent to insta prone+headshot like its currently really frequent to see. 
Lot of good player coming from csgo or bf have real facility to make this game a crappy frag hunt (maybe cause the gun are really accurate)... and i hate that. Even in pr2 you have a little knockback and its going really fine with it. 

The goal is to give a slight buff to ppl playing slowly, always having their gun raised or using good mutual cover.. 

 

Considering injuries, i propose to have 3 kind : 

 

Yellow = bleeding + knockback from hit

Orange = ragdolled + you can only prone (like in R6) 

Red = uncouscious like actually

 

I disagree with anykind of armor system, too hard to equilibrate and i'm pretty sure the dev already said it will be too complicated to had to UT4. 

Edited by darricks

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They said personal ethical reasons. Your ethical beliefs may differ, but that has no bearing on what the devs themselves believe.

 

You may also notice that there is no gore or "sawing people in half with bullets and explosions". That is also because of what the devs thought was reasonable in the game they are developing. Last I checked I am not stealing crude oil or murdering people when I boot up Squad, rather I am playing a teamwork focused tactical FPS.

 

The game doesn't leave it up to "chance" that a medic will revive a player, which I think is fairly obvious unless you seriously believe people just get revived randomly. You don't need to babysit a downed body, rather what you should be doing is actively engaging other targets. It's not like the downed guy is going to get up and run away, a medic has to move to him, and go through a fairly lengthy process to bring him back. I mainly play medic, and its not like I can just teleport over to a downed player an instantly bring him back to life. The ability to revive players is also important because it extends the longevity of the squad.

 

As for getting knocked over, as I said before, I don't think it the most efficient way to model the effects of getting hit, however I am not opposed to it. That said, even if it takes skill to actually hit someone, that skill should be rewarded consistently, not based upon RNG. If there is an RNG factor to falling, then it IS random, even if it required first getting shot. 

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6 hours ago, darricks said:

 

It has not to be random, and lets put realism on the side. Its about gameplay. 
I want ppl who shot & hit in first to be reward so, if you are a good tactician or a patient player, you are rewarded by improving your chance to kill your ennemy. 
So its simple, you are hit : you get a little knockback of 0.15 secs long, just enough to prevent your opponent to insta prone+headshot like its currently really frequent to see. 
Lot of good player coming from csgo or bf have real facility to make this game a crappy frag hunt (maybe cause the gun are really accurate)... and i hate that. Even in pr2 you have a little knockback and its going really fine with it. 

The goal is to give a slight buff to ppl playing slowly, always having their gun raised or using good mutual cover.. 

 

Considering injuries, i propose to have 3 kind : 

 

Yellow = bleeding + knockback from hit

Orange = ragdolled + you can only prone (like in R6) 

Red = uncouscious like actually

 

I disagree with anykind of armor system, too hard to equilibrate and i'm pretty sure the dev already said it will be too complicated to had to UT4. 

I agree!! No armor. The last thing we need is for ppl to take MORE hits before dying.  But yes I agree with hit reactions. 

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Killing incapacitated people has been a subject since Pre-Alpha and Devs don't want to do it as medics would become much less useful and give people even more reasons not to wait for a medic- as they could be killed while down anyway

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i'd love to see this in the game but i am actually 100% sure this will not happen!

 

to be honest there are so many things i would love to see in SQUAD, for me i'd love it to be a

1st person infantry fighting simulator that get's as close as possible to real life but this won't happen either.

 

imho, for extreme realism, or let's say immersion the game is missing:

 

-realistic movement speed and realistic smooth transitions (walk, run, sprint, crouch, prone, turn, jump, vault)

-realistic interaction with weapons (weapon resting and enviroment collision)

-realistic handling of weapons (aiming, recoil, reloading, PIP scopes etc.)

-realistic scaling of soldiers, weapons and surroundings (the scaling is pretty off yes)

-realistic first person view with free look that simulates a moving head on a torso.

-realistic ballistics, material penetration, bulllet speed and impact (impact=what OP suggested)

-realistic damage system

(for example a hit in the leg will result in a slower movement speed,

extremely reduced stamina. a hit in the arm wil not affect movement speed or stamina but it would be

impossible to aim down sights or at least give a very shaky aim. being hit in the head=instadeath,

same with grenades and other explosives.)

 

 

...to be continued :D

 

Edited by FIXXXER

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On 12/21/2016 at 6:54 PM, xxxWINGNUTSxxx said:

Tripping when walking might be totally random but getting knocked down by a bullet is not random. Someone had to intentionally concentrate and use their skill to put that bullet in you in the first place. I see getting randomly knocked down from that bullet as just another penalty for letting yourself get shot. 

 

Adding armor shouldn't decrease the skill level of the game. After all, Counter-Strike, the FPS that is considered the top skill based competitive multiplayer e-sports game in the world has armor as a feature.

 

As for the dev saying no killing incapacitated soldiers because "gameplay and personal ethical reasons", how is having to babysit a downed body until it despawns good for gameplay? If a player uses his skill to kill a player he should get that kill because he earned it. Instead the current system leaves it up to chance that an enemy medic will revive and nullify his kill, now that's randomness not skill.

 

"Personal ethical reasons". Really? So it's not ethical to shoot a soldier a couple more times to finish him but it IS ethical to saw him in half with bullets and explosives to incapacitate him? It IS ethical to go to war and murder other soldiers because your government needs more crude oil? This isn't a Geneva conventions simulator.

 

It's not totally random, but the problem is still that you want the possibility of a knock back when you shoot an enemy, which takes the power of response out of their hands because of something you've done that might cause them to be stripped of their ability to do anything until an animation is complete. All you're doing is giving yourself an extra advantage when you're the shooter. A penalty of letting yourself get shot? Dude, that's called bleeding out. We don't need a second one that makes it impossible to respond to maybe save yourself. 

 

Counter Strike's armor feature is not only incredibly basic but is also part of the intense decision making process that comes into the buy portion of the round. You choose to spend your money on it rather than a better gun because maybe you're skilled enough to get buy with a worse weapon and a slightly smaller chance at dying. The armor is also incredibly ineffective in that game.

 

If you wipe the squad, you don't have to worry about your kill coming back to life. If you move on from an area that you haven't secured and leave an enemy medic behind to revive your kill, then you deserve to lose your points and get shot in the ass for failing to secure a sector.

 

Jesus dude, you sound like you've got a whole lot of terrible political opinions about war that I don't feel like laughing at you for just yet. Keep your feelings about OIF/OEF out of this.

 

On 12/21/2016 at 7:07 PM, Rainmaker said:

I don't know why people got to limit this game in every possible way when there are plenty of other dumb and simple games like that on the market. Battlefield, call of duty, counter strike....... Squad is something different. And every new guy discovering it states its ArmA killer, and is considering Squad to be a realistic or even a simulator. Just check steam reviews, hell you can even see that right here on the forums from time to time.

 

I am not stating Squad should be state of the art military simulator (I wouldn't have anything against that either ;)) but I have seen people here talk down on ''weapon low ready stance'' for example claiming its too complex, its not supposed to be a simulator, (this one is the best) its JUST A GAME why does it matter. When infact it does, it makes the game look and feel proper without a friendly constantly aiming his gun at your head every time he looks at you.

 

I can connect this feature to Neo from matrix feature we had in old updates where we could sprint so fast in a zig zag pattern to evade bullets and single handedly wipe whole squads out alone. Now its not like that, you are actually in a human body with combat gear and it pays off to stay with your squad (most often) which is what this game is trying to promote. And now everybody is loving it.

 

Depth, details and realism of the game tops every other simple and shallow game, because it emulates a real thing, it looks and feels the same hence it means something. Simple games are for kids that are concerned about having a hello kitty m4 skin, it means nothing to a guy pursuing a proper team played tactical FPS with real life look and feel to it.

 

There are plenty other features that are in the same category. Body armor, vehicle armor, unable to sprint in water, consequences of being hit like can't aim properly or no stamina, safety function on weapons, functions and features that make firebases more effective to not being discarded by a shallow in the box thinking of ''never put a fob on the flag thing'' etc... I could go on for ever.

 

Squad is something different, but by being more different from those is undeniably gets closer to ArmA, OFP, and other simulator games. I think there are a mix of things that can be good for the game, but I don't think there's a good way to add body armor that isn't overly complex or overly simplified, both of which would detract from the game (complex for uniqueness and simple for overall gameplay). 

 

The problem is that you have an unfounded opinion about simple games and a holier-than-thou attitude about your preferred type of game. I can easily say that people who play tactical teamplay shooters are pedantic and real men play My Little Pony dating sims made by Sam Hyde, but that doesn't mean it's true nor does it add to your argument. On top of this, Squad is skimping in the details when it comes to having a "real life look and feel". Until the animation update this shit will continue to feel flat as cardboard and unless they ever decide to fix their mistakes the guns will always have major issues to those who care enough to notice them (see: the entire RPK). 

 

 

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I'm all for enabling killing incapacitated enemies, that would award more strategic gameplay.

 

Here's what happens now in game: One squad defending a single point would get quickly wiped out by a combined force of two squads, cause the superior force would just keep reviving people twice as faster, which results in the defender being absolutely helpless. This does not encourage strategic gameplay but rather just nobrain lemming rush, also given the fact that cordination among squads is relatively weak, it would be wise to address the importance of a single squad.. 

 

With the implementation of the shoot-them-again-just-to-make-sure mechanism, there will be two instances:

1. Over long distances, firefights would be prolonged as soliders can effectively use cover so that even if incapacitated, they wont get shot again, thus being revivable. This means flanking tactics would be more effective as the surprise party can inflict heavy and unrecoverable casualties(i.e. if your teammates get flanked and shot to death, you cant just dispatch the remaining members to drove the enemy out and recovers easily). 

2. In CQB, when a squad is heavily outnumbered, instead of getting completely overrun, it can now try to get in a defensible location(like a nearby village), and bleed out enemies who simply lemming rush.

 

This would actually make well cordinated team efforts and smart leadership more vital.

Edited by Noobgamer

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9 hours ago, Noobgamer said:

1. Over long distances, firefights would be prolonged as soliders can effectively use cover so that even if incapacitated, they wont get shot again, thus being revivable. This means flanking tactics would be more effective as the surprise party can inflict heavy and unrecoverable casualties(i.e. if your teammates get flanked and shot to death, you cant just dispatch the remaining members to drove the enemy out and recovers easily). 

2. In CQB, when a squad is heavily outnumbered, instead of getting completely overrun, it can now try to get in a defensible location(like a nearby village), and bleed out enemies who simply lemming rush.

 

This would actually make well cordinated team efforts and smart leadership more vital.

#1 would be more for if the whole dragging thing was put in. "Oh geez, you're a foot away from the wall bud but tough luck I can't move you to make sure you don't get hit."

 

#2 I completely understand what you're getting at. There's literally no reason to worry about rushing a guy in a building since your medic can just pick you up after. No big deal, I lose no tickets on our team because I get picked back up but that guy dropped three of us and he can't get revived.

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AP AMMO IS NOT RANDOM ITS A CHOICE

SUICIDE IS LESS ETHICAL, THE DEVS SHOULD ASK US TO KILL EM 

guys guys guys and Its not random atttttt all for that knock back stuff you guys are all forgetting about AP rounds. If its high caliber AP no chance, its going through, in IRL maybe still small chance but I would just leave it at that. If its AP it goes through. If its not AP it can Knock down but has a higher chance of penetrating if the other guy groups his shots. There you go its not random.

1)choice to play a faction with higher grade armor on that role kit

2)enemy team purchases cashe's of AP ammo

3)Penetration on shot 1 guaranteed

 

And I m sorry

On 12/21/2016 at 6:54 PM, xxxWINGNUTSxxx said:

As for the dev saying no killing incapacitated soldiers because "gameplay and personal ethical reasons", how is having to babysit a downed body until it despawns good for gameplay? If a player uses his skill to kill a player he should get that kill because he earned it. Instead the current system leaves it up to chance that an enemy medic will revive and nullify his kill, now that's randomness not skill.

 

"Personal ethical reasons". Really? So it's not ethical to shoot a soldier a couple more times to finish him but it IS ethical to saw him in half with bullets and explosives to incapacitate him? It IS ethical to go to war and murder other soldiers because your government needs more crude oil? This isn't a Geneva conventions simulator.

"Ethical"? Who cares about why the fight is starting the give up button is suicide. Im sorry its more ethical to be shot when your bleeding out then to shoot yourself. Ok well i guess you cant ever really kill anyone in this game. That sucks. I thought eventually wed be able to actually kill the other player. Incapacitating is stupid random enough. I say high caliber round to vital area = dead. Non lethal area means now u have to wait and watch the stupid window because hes getting back up no matter what u do. 

 

Here devs just give incapacitated dude ability to still control his his weapon to a small degree so we can still kill him, unbelievable. Fine we can just leave the dude to kill himself. 

Edited by madcat768

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9 hours ago, Rybec said:

#1 would be more for if the whole dragging thing was put in. "Oh geez, you're a foot away from the wall bud but tough luck I can't move you to make sure you don't get hit."

 

#2 I completely understand what you're getting at. There's literally no reason to worry about rushing a guy in a building since your medic can just pick you up after. No big deal, I lose no tickets on our team because I get picked back up but that guy dropped three of us and he can't get revived.

I doubt if "dragging" would be implemented, think ARMA 3 has a mod doing that, but pretty glitchy ending up looking wired and stucking people in objects.

Edited by Noobgamer

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16 hours ago, Noobgamer said:

I doubt if "dragging" would be implemented, think ARMA 3 has a mod doing that, but pretty glitchy ending up looking wired and stucking people in objects.

In their kickstarter they posted this.

c2c49653bd79cddf08a213698f614d4f_origina

 

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Literally sick of tagging people with the SVD only to watch them sprint away. Or LMG instantly suppress you although they haven't spotted you, they just using 7:1 surround to shoot in your direction, until they spot you through the scope of the m240 or m249.

You can literally just run around with a m240 and use it like a sniper rifle, then switch to bipod for o.p suppression.

The suppression system is a joke, the fact you cannot control your character and compose him by holding shift to line up a do or die shot really shows how ****ing pathetic the minds are of some people. Like if you have the choice between running and getting shot anyway or trying to shoot the guy whos shooting you aren't you gonna shoot the idiots who somehow hasn't hit you yet, but then the moment you fire at him, the suppression system corrects his shitty aim and he lands a headshot.

Suppression system = helping the noobs land a shot, so when you hit someone in the chest with an svd they just fire like mad at you and you, although you are already in position prepared to take another shot being a ****ing marksman, no you get swayed around and can't land that second shot, although the ****er should be clutching his chest and on the ground, knocked the **** down.

Edited by <invalid>

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On 19.4.2017 at 10:57 PM, madcat768 said:

AP AMMO IS NOT RANDOM ITS A CHOICE

SUICIDE IS LESS ETHICAL, THE DEVS SHOULD ASK US TO KILL EM 

guys guys guys and Its not random atttttt all for that knock back stuff you guys are all forgetting about AP rounds. If its high caliber AP no chance, its going through, in IRL maybe still small chance but I would just leave it at that. If its AP it goes through. If its not AP it can Knock down but has a higher chance of penetrating if the other guy groups his shots. There you go its not random.

1)choice to play a faction with higher grade armor on that role kit

2)enemy team purchases cashe's of AP ammo

3)Penetration on shot 1 guaranteed

 

And I m sorry

"Ethical"? Who cares about why the fight is starting the give up button is suicide. Im sorry its more ethical to be shot when your bleeding out then to shoot yourself. Ok well i guess you cant ever really kill anyone in this game. That sucks. I thought eventually wed be able to actually kill the other player. Incapacitating is stupid random enough. I say high caliber round to vital area = dead. Non lethal area means now u have to wait and watch the stupid window because hes getting back up no matter what u do. 

 

Here devs just give incapacitated dude ability to still control his his weapon to a small degree so we can still kill him, unbelievable. Fine we can just leave the dude to kill himself. 

Headshot instakills... No revive possible! As well as direct hits with a tankround

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