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KCIV

Feedback and Discussion on the Crow System Humvee.

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Its been out for a while, we have had some time to play with the new vehicle. I know I have my own feelings about it, accompanied with video to boot but I wanted to get a discussion about it. I would also like to point out that there is a "Noob crow" and a "pro with crow" and be mindful of which situation you are using in this discussion. I think how much power a crow has (floor and ceiling) depending on the pilot is also an important topic.

But what do you guys think?

Specifically the 2 core points about the crow which boil down to:

  1. Its Gun Axis. (Depression, Elevation compared to others)
  2. Magnification

 

I will post videos showing off situations soon.

Edited by KCIV

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Here is a quick snippet of something the crow can do Solo. IE 1 person piloting and gunning without any support in the opening of a round.

 

http://plays.tv/video/583222af2cc0e6fbad/yay
 

I have been in other games where  the below situation happened on that map:


A safe fob and vehicle resupply up on the hill behind me (the one infantry can't run up without running up the road) with access to infinite ammo, and sandbags to block shots. I have other clips I am compiling to add to this discussion.

Edited by KCIV

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1 minute ago, Serp403 said:

Do you mean its OP? I'm sorry I fail to understand what conversation you wish to start?

 

 

A conversation in general. Based on your usage or going up against said system. Being apart of a higher skilled clan and playing on servers with other higher skilled clans I have seen its upper bound and abusive cases, and wanted to see others opinion on the topic.

Edited by KCIV

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The vehicle is much more about fire support than an armed transport since there are less seats and it has a meager two boxes of ammunition.

I wouldn't say simply having magnification makes the vehicle overpowered. Wait until we get IFVs and you're going to start getting really upset.

It's not like the crew is much safer either, they can still get shot but not from standing up to gun.

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55 minutes ago, Rybec said:

The vehicle is much more about fire support than an armed transport since there are less seats and it has a meager two boxes of ammunition.

I wouldn't say simply having magnification makes the vehicle overpowered. Wait until we get IFVs and you're going to start getting really upset.

It's not like the crew is much safer either, they can still get shot but not from standing up to gun.

 

 

Both of those "counters" are easily avoided by a skilled user. Gunners are much safer since a crow being used in CQB is a mistake in the first place. I have no doubt in the future the crow losses some of its dominance, but that is missing the point. I also like the reload and ammo count, however the sustainability/Accuracy/Effective range of the Crow make comparisons of ammo less relevant. A skilled user can maximize ammo efficiency making its ammo count plentiful in many situations.

 

And Magnification that allows accurate shots across an entire map do indicate a potential problem. In my video I am able with out any effort exert enormous pressure at the opening of a round on 5 objectives. Not counting lanes normally taken outside of objectives. This situation is without support. A situation I demonstrated changed with support becomes much stronger with no counter play available. I have seen and executed variations on my posted video and have found it to be abusive. Fob + sandbag + vehicle resupply immediately counters almost all counter play, leaving only exaggerated power.

Edited by KCIV
Posted prematurely, added new sentances

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8 minutes ago, KCIV said:

Both of those "counters" are easily avoided by a skilled user.

That's very true but only really happens on open maps with a lot of breathing room.

The idea of vehicles with (somewhat) high magnification against a non-symmetrical enemy has been played out in PR for a decade, you either work around it or use a VBIED and one of those isn't even an option in Squad.

 

If you play super safe there is little chance of losing your crows humvee and that is an issue for sure but shy of taking it out of the game it's going to be something we have to wait for an addition to the game to have a counter.

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I think tows and javelins and such will change the game so much that talking about crows humvee balance at this point is kind of a moot point. But personally I like having some op assets in the game. It adds to the tension and forces you to think a little.

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i find the crow very easy to dominate with. often easier solo as the driver is very important (most ppl arent clever like me).

 

But I recently noticed that one GL can kill the whole crew in a humv :)

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6 hours ago, fatalsushi said:

I think tows and javelins and such will change the game so much that talking about crows humvee balance at this point is kind of a moot point. But personally I like having some op assets in the game. It adds to the tension and forces you to think a little.

 

While I agree that any number of future game states will balance out X mechanic/item. I think it IS worthwhile in the now to discuss. 

Being able to synthesis a problem in the current state provides valuable information moving into future game states.


Arguments of "its Asymmetrical so its fine" is a lacking argument. Asymmetrical design is valuable and my goal and direction as well, however Being destroyed with little to no counter play or enjoyable interaction is not Asymmetrical design but poor design. I am by no means arguing fairness or removing difficulty, I am however advocating good interaction. The crow currently has none, All other vehicles have good interactions and good gameplay focused around counters and interactions. The crow side steps these. For example the BTR with good magnification is extremely sensitive to terrain (its gun axis) and requires a skilled driver and gunner combination. The Crow does not. This is but one example.

Also. Most maps in this game are open. 

A last thought is, Maybe the crow shouldn't be in the game in its current state. Maybe it shouldn't spawn until 10 minutes, Preventing game opening abuse. The power of the crow in the opening of a round is just absurd when used correctly and skillfully.. Just because it exists now doesn't mean it can't be recalled, reworked, or above criticism. After all its Alpha, There have been many changes and tweaks that were later repealed.

Edited by KCIV

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I am not saying  there is no potential for Balance but a vehicle should always dominate infantry on an open field!!! otherwise there is no point in using them IMO.

 

If you have Problems to Encounter a CROWS 

 

A) BTR can easily deal with them

 

B) Their main advantage is fighting from distance try to force them to get closer if they want to fight you 

 

C)  Cities and dense Vegetation are death traps for them  avoid them by going there.

 

D) Due to their size it is easy to spot them if you really want to avoid them it is possible  

 

5 hours ago, KCIV said:

Also. Most maps in this game are open

 

Yes but most objectives are small villages, compounds or at least provide some cover for infantry. 

 

Keep in mind once we get more vehicles we also might get more AT to Counter them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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0ee207cc47.jpg

 

This is actually a sub par performance but close to average from myself in a Crow supporting my squad. I am one person in a crow. This type of gameplay is horrible and not at all what should be allowed. I was making a point to sit in 1 spot. Not moving or repositioning. This is not END ALL PROOF of anything I am saying but this provides a direct context on which to discuss. Ideally once I posted another 10 videos like this one, it provides enough variance to make its point.

 

http://plays.tv/video/5833b26a0d347e2cab/-part1

 

http://plays.tv/video/5833b34744d4ec9e22/-part2

 

http://plays.tv/video/5833b39829f3ba119b/-part3

 


Show me how A.) Infantry can get close to me

B.) I was baited into getting closer

C.) BTR could easily deal with me

D.) How effective that cover was

and finally E.) I was easy to spot due to my large size...

 

I will continue to post more footage and better footage, but this is my point, The sheer power and dominance and map control is unbelievable.

 

 

 

 

Edited by KCIV

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HUMVEE CROW perfectly fits in the game.

 

It can be easily destroyed by BTR-80 or RPGs. How much CROW gets in kills depends how weak or careless the enemy team is. That being said CROW is by no means overpowered. 

Edited by Rainmaker

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It needs a counter from militia and insurgents. Something like a Techie with SPG-9 or if they improved accuracy on Rocket Techie and made it easier to figure out the angle you are aiming (currently the Shitmobile).

 

In the current state of squad it seems way to powerfull if used correctly on maps like Kohat and Logar. It is probally true that you have killed lots of them. But this is more often cause by battlefield drivers not understanding to stay back.

Edited by Romby

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People need to learn how to fight against vehicles. Same arguments arise about the btr when it is used correctly and gets alot of kills.

When the m240b's arrive I would expect the same sort of amount of kills if used correctly as a fire support role on a hill overlooking an objective or main enemy route. We need rewarded for using good tactics. Balancing vehicles or weapons that are being used as intended is just counter productive to the dynamics of the game. Counter it with the proper counter tactics to either bypass or remove the threat. Don't run toward it like zulu's as was prob the case in the picture above.

Also the above pic was against Russians who have a btr available to return fire at distance that has more armour than the crows??

Edited by GhostNI

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31 minutes ago, GhostNI said:

People need to learn how to fight against vehicles. Same arguments arise about the btr when it is used correctly and gets alot of kills.

When the m240b's arrive I would expect the same sort of amount of kills if used correctly as a fire support role on a hill overlooking an objective or main enemy route. We need rewarded for using good tactics. Balancing vehicles or weapons that are being used as intended is just counter productive to the dynamics of the game. Counter it with the proper counter tactics to either bypass or remove the threat. Don't run toward it like zulu's as was prob the case in the picture above.

Also the above pic was against Russians who have a btr available to return fire at distance that has more armour than the crows??

 

You know the main problem isn't the caliber. It is the zoom, low recoil, good at climbing hills, gun depresion and the fact that the gunner is protected inside vehicle. The only thing the M240 will have it low recoil (of bipod system is added). A M240 gunner will be easy to Snipe.

 

Im pretty sure the BTR has much worse gun depresion and can't climb as well (worse engine to weight ratio). This means it cant be used in many areas.

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12 minutes ago, Romby said:

 

You know the main problem isn't the caliber. It is the zoom, low recoil, good at climbing hills, gun depresion and the fact that the gunner is protected inside vehicle. The only thing the M240 will have it low recoil (of bipod system is added). A M240 gunner will be easy to Snipe.

 

Im pretty sure the BTR has much worse gun depresion and can't climb as well (worse engine to weight ratio). This means it cant be used in many areas.

Yeah but the btr can carry way more people to the front line.

When a proper suppression system is introduced the 240b gunners will not be easy to snipe from being suppressed.

The crows weighs way less than the btr so is obviously going to be better off road. 

It's all perfect to me. I don't see the issue. I can do the same in a btr as I can do with the crows. Both are affective at what they do best.

 

Ps I also dont see the point in trying to put fake balancing tweaks to all the vehicles or wasting time having to tweak every time a new vehicle or weapon comes. Design them as the would be used IRL and it will all even itself out. We are not playing battlefield 3. There is a reason that there has to be 2 different plays types for conventional forces versus is insurgent gurrilla tactics. Both are fun to play and if used correctly are efficient.

 

Edited by GhostNI

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49 minutes ago, GhostNI said:

Yeah but the btr can carry way more people to the front line.

When a proper suppression system is introduced the 240b gunners will not be easy to snipe from being suppressed.

The crows weighs way less than the btr so is obviously going to be better off road. 

It's all perfect to me. I don't see the issue. I can do the same in a btr as I can do with the crows. Both are affective at what they do best.

 

Ps I also dont see the point in trying to put fake balancing tweaks to all the vehicles or wasting time having to tweak every time a new vehicle or weapon comes. Design them as the would be used IRL and it will all even itself out. We are not playing battlefield 3. There is a reason that there has to be 2 different plays types for conventional forces versus is insurgent gurrilla tactics. Both are fun to play and if used correctly are efficient.

 

The problem isn't the Crow. The problem is that in it's current state the game haven't given other factions a proper counter. This is also why Thread starte suggests to remove the crow until more vehicles/weapons have been added.  Right it is a doom mobile that only gets killed if driver is stupid. Mostly crows dont go down because you manuevert around it but because the driver drove like a battlefield player.

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1 hour ago, Romby said:

The problem isn't the Crow. The problem is that in it's current state the game haven't given other factions a proper counter. This is also why Thread starte suggests to remove the crow until more vehicles/weapons have been added.  Right it is a doom mobile that only gets killed if driver is stupid. Mostly crows dont go down because you manuevert around it but because the driver drove like a battlefield player.

In a some cases there won't ever be a proper counter, it's generally advised to change your playstyle to reflect what the enemy team is capable of. Players will need to get used to hiding from the heavy vehicles that are coming, I think the CROWS humvee is a great learning tool in this regard. If players can't handle it, how do they expect to fare with mortars, tanks, APCs and assault helicopters being able to engage them from over 2-3km away?

 

I'm gonna call for help from another franchise to warn some of you:

 

Edited by MultiSquid

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24 minutes ago, MultiSquid said:

In a some cases there won't ever be a proper counter, it's generally advised to change your playstyle to reflect what the enemy team is capable of. Players will need to get used to hiding from the heavy vehicles that are coming, I think the CROWS humvee is a great learning tool in this regard. If players can't handle it, how do they expect to fare with mortars, tanks, APCs and assault helicopters being able to engage them from over 1km away?

 

I'm gonna call for help from another franchise to warn some of you:

 

You dont understand what i mean. Being able to change playstyle is a counter! With counter I dont mean that I need a Tank to fight a Tank.

 

Right now a Crow parked on a hill with a couple of sandbags around it to catch RPGs are almost impossible to kill. On some maps (like Logar), a properly parked crow can control 3-4 flags (see video in #0).

 

In future we will get stuff like mortars to deal with such stationary crows. But as it looks right now the only way to avoid these on maps like Logar is that militia shouldn't move to middle flags and leasve these to US and therefore lose. Yes on some maps you can try to use the Shitmobile rocket techie, but hitting anything with that is almost impossible and it isnt even on Logar.

 

Could you please watch video in #0 and write your tactic to take down that Crow?

 

I fell like what they done now is adding attack helicopters and then forgotten to add anti air missiles. Btw im not sure if i think attack helicopters would be funny in this game. Even in PR these were balanced by limited view distance.

Edited by Romby

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kokan map in AAS.

 

US team should always win. Push with crow to prevent insurgent vehicle movement. fall back when damaged. Meanwhile other squads work through flags and easily deal with insurgents due to strength at range.

The only time US will lose in an equally skilled fight is when they leave a flag undefended.

 

Yes it is possible the insurgents will arrange enough fire to take out the crow but in a pub game it is unlikely and in all games requires lucky positioning.

 

Range is everything on that map.

Rocket techie is like a fireworks display or a strip club. Entertaining but ultimately disappointing.

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3 hours ago, GhostNI said:

Yeah but the btr can carry way more people to the front line.

When a proper suppression system is introduced the 240b gunners will not be easy to snipe from being suppressed.

The crows weighs way less than the btr so is obviously going to be better off road. 

It's all perfect to me. I don't see the issue. I can do the same in a btr as I can do with the crows. Both are affective at what they do best.

 

Ps I also dont see the point in trying to put fake balancing tweaks to all the vehicles or wasting time having to tweak every time a new vehicle or weapon comes. Design them as the would be used IRL and it will all even itself out. We are not playing battlefield 3. There is a reason that there has to be 2 different plays types for conventional forces versus is insurgent gurrilla tactics. Both are fun to play and if used correctly are efficient.

 


BTR cant' get to the front line if a crow is covering the entire front line and all routes TO the front line.

Proper suppression makes the crow stronger, not weaker

BTR can not get the same results without immense skill and specific terrain positioning Unlike the crow which ignores all of these.
 

All of these "its easy" solutions are hard countered by sub par skill on part of the crow. The current game state is not able to handle crows. Something that must be considered when adding content to the game.

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8 hours ago, Rainmaker said:

HUMVEE CROW perfectly fits in the game.

 

It can be easily destroyed by BTR-80 or RPGs. How much CROW gets in kills depends how weak or careless the enemy team is. That being said CROW is by no means overpowered. 


Show me in those videos how the enemy team was weak and careless to allow me to set up a crow mid map 2 minutes into a game, and stay in cover protected engaging the other half of the map by myself.

Its not carelessness on the side of the enemy team. Its easy because you have never played vs a skilled or even semi-skilled crow squad.

EDIT
It is not even about the Kills. Don't be so narrow minded. Map pressure, Objective Pressure, Cutting off Reinforcement lines, stopping Lanes to push, Are much more impactfull than just "kills". Some match ups don't even GET a BTR. 

Edited by KCIV

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Hey MCIV,

Trust me how much i played Squad I don't need to watch any video to make my opinion on HUMVEE CROW. Its the enemy fault if they moved in the CROWs kill zone without using the BTR to counter it. It never happens when you are against strong opponent. CROW should be used for long range fire support. And its working, it perfectly fits in. Now if countered by BTR engagement scheme changes drastically. It changes even more if hostile AT infantry comes close. Don't forget another thing, RPG is better than LAW on longer ranges, you can snipe the CROW from long range with RPG, its very difficult to do the same with LAW to a BTR. If on militia or insurgent side you can use fast techies to get around crows killzones. 

 

 

Edited by Rainmaker

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27 minutes ago, suds said:

Range is everything on that map.

Rocket techie is like a fireworks display or a strip club. Entertaining but ultimately disappointing.

I love you for writing this. The rocket techie is so useless!

 

19 minutes ago, KCIV said:

Show me in those videos how the enemy team was weak and careless to allow me to set up a crow mid map 2 minutes into a game, and stay in cover protected engaging the other half of the map by myself.

Its not carelessness on the side of the enemy team. Its easy because you have never played vs a skilled or even semi-skilled crow squad.

These discussions are retarted and getting boring. Standart answer is always it is supposed to be asymetrical, you need to use your strenghts. Hit n Run. Dont run in open. Ambush.

 

Would still like to know how you take a flag with hit and run tactics. How you advance on a flag in the open when you cant move in the open and how you ambush a stationary vehicle.

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