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TwistedSunshine

To be or not to be

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Well, where do we start. As the title says "To be or not to be" is what I want to discuss. What I mean by that statement is will squad be the leader of the pack or just a different formula of the same game we have been playing again and again. I've only racked in around 150hrs in the game and I can already, and I hate to use this word, see the massive potential this game has to be the most immersive experience besides joining the military for a combat orientated thrill. Let's just begin with saying this, people who say this game is not trying to be a mil sim, just leave this thread immediately, I will not be responding to your argumentative banterwank. 

Here's a couple idea's that I think will separate this game from the rest and make it lead in it's genre unmatched. 

1. Realistic body armor - And I'm not talking about what "insurgency" is doing, they say they wanted to add proper body armor but they did a dog shit job at it considering 5.56 to the chest still does damage. I don't want to hear what body armor is capable of either from people who have been in service prior to currently enlisted, times change, things progress. What was for you is not for now. Body armor has been seeing huge improvements over the years. I don't want to sound rude, just making a valid statement. Today's body armor issued to us troops to the best of my knowledge is IOTV's "Improved outer tactical vests" capable of stopping armor piercing rounds, my guess is that of 7.62x51mm nato rounds with penetrators. And before Mr einstein has a heart attack, yes these vest's cannot take rounds all day and not fail, they are ceramic and brittle after abuse. However they are very effective at what their intended use is, protecting the wearer, I'd like to see vests being accurately portrayed for the very first time in gaming history. Yes, I hear your cries. B-b-but the balance! We already have armored humvee's with CROW systems vs unarmored vehicles with mounted machineguns on the flatbed. They do not have to be symmetrical to be balanced, balance can come from many effective and more immersive ways my friend. Helmet's should also do their job, it is again to the best of my belief using common sense that the us military's standard issue helmets will indeed stop rifle rounds at a distance after the round has lost sufficient energy to fall below the helmets rated protection, this means headshots up close with rifles will kill to the head. It also increases the effectiveness of low and high powered rifle cartridges, 7.62x54mmR vs 7.62x39mm for example. The latter having a much quicker drop off of penetration through helmets than the prior. 

2. Hit ratio - I believe right now the hit ratio of rounds on target is far too high, it's clear to see firearms in this game are heavily over performing with accuracy and non existent barrel heat that normally results in flyers/inaccuracy. From what I've heard from people I know in the PMC line of work my opinion of this is also warranted. Being under sniper like fire and suppression from an ak style weapon using iron sights at 400+ meters almost makes me want to shoot shit out of my ass like a torpedo from uncontrollable laughter. 

3. PIP scopes/3D scopes - Guys. It's already been done with this engine to great effect, just hire someone who has knowledge on 3d scopes, it'll be well worth the investment. Throw in some real life counterpart 3D scopes that are used today with correct usable ballistic reticles and it will be nothing short of breath taking. There's nothing else really to say about it, they speak for themselves. 

4. Damage system - Developers I implore you to try this free modification "OccupationCS:Source". What they have done with their damage system is truly epic. I'm sure you can think of something similar, something that steers away from the shitty health pool system that's as old as video games itself. Death should occur from shock, blood loss or vital organs being destroyed or failing due to lack of oxygen. If you say it's impossible, only time and effort is keeping you from pushing the boundaries that have already been crossed, by modders. 

5. Destruction - Why not? If it's possible then make it happen, hitting a sandbag wall with an rpg should result in no more sandbag wall, shooting it with a heavy machine gun should also result in no more wall. It's 2016 ladies and gentleman, let the modern day physics breath! 

6. Vehicle damage - Developers, please for the love of all that's good in this world. Remove vehicles detonating like hand grenades, I know.. it gives you tiggles. But we both know it's a load of hollywood horseshit. Unless that vehicle has tank shells or whatnot it should not explode. It simply should not explode. Also when a vehicle is being shot by rounds that are penetrating it's skin, the bullet should have to cross paths with the unlucky occupant to injure them. Red orchestra 2 does this perfectly. 

7. Wind - Oh wind, how you make shooting accurately a pain in the ass, but oh wind how you protect they from getting shot from people who don't have the knowledge to understand you. Make wind a thing, allow us to have certain optics that have windage and elevation control. It's self explanatory as to why it would be amazing.

8. Splash - What I mean by splash is the effect of a bullet impacting the ground/any surface making it clear as to where your rounds have landed. Yes I know it is currently in the game, but it's pretty piss poor. Look up some youtube video's or grab a rifle from a buddie and start experimenting yourself to understand what it looks like. It's quite a bit too transparent and hard to notice at the moment. 

Edited by TwistedSunshine

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I have to agree however...

6. I believe vehicles explode into a big black cloud to hide the change from a normal vehicle model to the destroyed one. Also fuel tanks?
5. I think the same thing would have to be done with destroying walls or sandbags - a huge cloud of debris. 

At the current level of optimisation, I believe those two things impossible. Maybe once the game using CPU instead of GPU issue has been fixed, we'll see some real good progress in these areas. Same issue with 3d scopes iirc.

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17 minutes ago, Peerun said:

I have to agree however...

6. I believe vehicles explode into a big black cloud to hide the change from a normal vehicle model to the destroyed one. Also fuel tanks?
5. I think the same thing would have to be done with destroying walls or sandbags - a huge cloud of debris. 

At the current level of optimisation, I believe those two things impossible. Maybe once the game using CPU instead of GPU issue has been fixed, we'll see some real good progress in these areas. Same issue with 3d scopes iirc.

6. What is there to burn? Most of those vehicles are completely stripped out of fabrics that burn to stop them from catching fire, not to say it cant happen as the fuel will burn but it won't explode, it will slowly burn the vehicle over time, and then only partially, around the fuel tanks and of course the seats. I have indeed seen vehicles explode, especially the insurgents unarmored vehicles. If they end up adding tanks, oh yeah let them guys blow up nice and proper as they hold ammunition HOWEVER even with that fact tanks can be knocked out without having to ignite the ammunition. If the engine is taken out then they have to rely on hand cranking the turret, knock the turret ring out and you have no horizontal movement on your main gun. Knock out the vertical drive and you can't elevate or depress your main gun. There's many things that can happen, penetration with HE might result in shrapnel taking out most if not all of the crew without igniting the ammo. Sorry I am rambling at this point lol

Edited by TwistedSunshine

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Theoretically the fuel can start burning, some of it evaporate and then the next projectile ignite the fumes, but yeah that's pretty ****ing unlikely :D 
I was just trying to rationalize, why they made them explode.

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I've seen vehicles get completely burned out from electrical fires in the radio mounts... or pin flares misfired into the cab from the gunner hatch so trust me they can and will go up in flames if ignited.  There's also been videos of vehicles rolling on fire after being hit.  But I do believe the vehicle damage stage is as the game in it's Alpha state and will improve as time goes on. 

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1 hour ago, TwistedSunshine said:

 Let's just begin with saying this, people who say this game is not trying to be a mil sim, just leave this thread immediately, 

 

Squad is not meant to be a mil sim, I'll show myself out ;)

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Search function has all your answers mate and relative information regarding most of what you bring up.
 

 


You can find the rest yourself.

By the way, what I was using 4 years ago in Afghanistan in terms of body armor, I still use today within the military,  BAE RBAV SF(IBA) with (R2)NIJ Level III plate protection. Times change, but the military will use what's affordable and has been tested and proven to replace current equipment. While body armor is changing, the military doesn't generally pick up new stuff right away, unless you're talking Special Forces who get all the cool new things.

I also think you're missing the point of Squad, It's no so much a mil sim, It's more so a "milcade" game. A game with some mil sim aspects as well as arcade aspects. The game is also "Alpha", yes I know the good old alpha excuse, but its totally relevant. Game is still under development. Constant changes/improvements will be made through out its development cycle.

Edited by Dubs

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People just love treating this game as a fully released title. The other day my squad lead was complaining about how "broken" Squad is and when I told him it's an alpha he was like "oh, you're right." That's a facepalm moment if I've ever seen one. Anyway, the vehicle damage system is totally work in progress. They're going to add locational damage, disabling the wheels, cook offs, etc. So most likely not everything will go up in a big fireball in the future. But yeah, please use the search function. A lot of this stuff has been discussed to death.

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6 hours ago, Z-trooper said:

 

Squad is not meant to be a mil sim, I'll show myself out ;)

No offense buddie but it seems your team has fractured thoughts on the matter, because you sure are riding the line of mil sim more closely than an arcade shooter. 

6 hours ago, Dubs said:

Search function has all your answers mate and relative information regarding most of what you bring up.
 

 


You can find the rest yourself.

By the way, what I was using 4 years ago in Afghanistan in terms of body armor, I still use today within the military,  BAE RBAV SF(IBA) with NIJ Level III plate protection. Times change, but the military will use what's affordable and has been tested and proven to replace current equipment. While body armor is changing, the military doesn't generally pick up new stuff right away, unless you're talking Special Forces who get all the cool new things.

I also think you're missing the point of Squad, It's no so much a mil sim, It's more so a "milcade" game. A game with some mil sim aspects as well as arcade aspects. The game is also "Alpha", yes I know the good old alpha excuse, but its totally relevant. Game is still under development. Constant changes/improvements will be made through out its development cycle.

I hear you man, but don't forget, I'm not complaining, I'm giving them my idea's that I think will make the game be written down in history as the best of its time, kinda like what star citizen is doing for space exploration. You can waste 5years of your life making a game that has competitors, or you can make a game that is one of a kind. I want squad to be that game, the developers have all the cards in their hands to do so. They deserve to be recognized. 

Edited by TwistedSunshine

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5 hours ago, fatalsushi said:

People just love treating this game as a fully released title. The other day my squad lead was complaining about how "broken" Squad is and when I told him it's an alpha he was like "oh, you're right." That's a facepalm moment if I've ever seen one. Anyway, the vehicle damage system is totally work in progress. They're going to add locational damage, disabling the wheels, cook offs, etc. So most likely not everything will go up in a big fireball in the future. But yeah, please use the search function. A lot of this stuff has been discussed to death.

 

Where am I treating it like a full release? This is the suggestions thread, I'm giving my suggestions. I can very well speak for myself even if 200 people have asked the same question as me, I don't have all day to be crosschecking what I say. No offense but does it trigger peoples mental disorders so badly that a question may have been asked before? Well sunshine let me explain to you, the life you are living has been lived a million times by another person, you are not original either. 

It appears to be in this day and age to be against the law to discuss anything without offending or triggering some asshat.

Edited by TwistedSunshine

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Just now, TwistedSunshine said:

 

Where am I treating it like a full release? This is the suggestion's thread. Be aware of where you have threaded and life will be less confusing. 

 

59 minutes ago, Zenrique said:

Lol, it was a matter of time before newcomers started reviving old suggestions and assumptions.


Yes just like the very first threads mentioning things I may have said, I am now mentioning them. Oh lord what will we do with our lives :(

Admins, can we get an age restriction on this post? I find it hard to believe any adult would get their panties in such a twist over the fact things I have mentioned may have been said before I got on board. It's repetitive, and sadly to be expected these days. It seems to be any thread mentioning cool features that would make the game stand out that god for bid cross the line of not being the first thing that's mentioned are completely ignored and trigger people enough to resort to plain old bitching. 

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25 minutes ago, TwistedSunshine said:

Admins, can we get an age restriction on this post?

 

With an attitude like you are currently displaying, you're probably not going to get very far in this community. Just letting you know :) 

 

35 minutes ago, TwistedSunshine said:

No offense buddie but it seems your team has fractured thoughts on the matter, because you sure are riding the line of mil sim more closely than an arcade shooter. 

 

I suggest that you back your claims up (that go directly against a developer has said) with quotes/evidence or be relegated to defending yourself to those who points out the flaws in your posts. 

 

To put it simply: You are looking for a milsim, or trying to turn Squad into the best milsim ever.... but your fundamental assumption that Squad falls into that category is fallacious. Continuing to push that line and replying to those who point out issues with your post will just end in the thread getting locked (because it will slowly turn nasty), I've seen it happen many times on these (and other) forums. 

 

Edit: And just to further clarify, I agree that having most of those things in game would be really cool (except the ones like the body armor which I think don't add much to gameplay besides frustration) but a lot of them face serious technical limitations. 

Edited by Psyrus
TwistedSunshine's posts are less abrasive than I thought (after reading all of them)

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Hello and welcome to Squad @TwistedSunshine,

19 minutes ago, TwistedSunshine said:

Admins, can we get an age restriction on this post?

Technically not feasible.


I can close the thread - if you want me to.

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5 minutes ago, Psyrus said:

 

With an attitude like you are currently displaying, you're probably not going to get very far in this community. Just letting you know :) 

 

 

I suggest that you back your baseless claims up (that go directly against a developer has said) with quotes/evidence or be relegated to defending yourself with petty insults to those who points out the flaws in your posts. 

 

To put it simply: You are looking for a milsim, or trying to turn Squad into the best milsim ever.... but your fundamental assumption that Squad falls into that category is fallacious. Continuing to push that line and throw vitriol at those who point out issues with your post will just end in the thread getting locked, I've seen it happen many times on these (and other) forums. 

I'm more than fully aware man, I'm not here to make friends however with the kinds of people I can't stand. What I mean by that is the one's who get their panties in a twist because things I mentioned have been said before, yes I am new to the forums, yes I am a new to the game. No I will not waste my time crosschecking what I say. That's just how it's going to be. 

 

It's funny when you mention petty insults when you speak about the developers response, implying something are we? Well my evidence was also in the same post, re-read it. Seriously dude, re-read it. 

To put it properly without bitching or crying:   You are looking for a m ...        Correct. And if that is the case my friend, so be it. I am completely open to debates that are productive, if you want to bitch about things then I will not be a respectful person, I give what I get. 

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18 minutes ago, Psyrus said:

 

With an attitude like you are currently displaying, you're probably not going to get very far in this community. Just letting you know :) 

 

 

I suggest that you back your claims up (that go directly against a developer has said) with quotes/evidence or be relegated to defending yourself to those who points out the flaws in your posts. 

 

To put it simply: You are looking for a milsim, or trying to turn Squad into the best milsim ever.... but your fundamental assumption that Squad falls into that category is fallacious. Continuing to push that line and replying to those who point out issues with your post will just end in the thread getting locked (because it will slowly turn nasty), I've seen it happen many times on these (and other) forums. 

 

Edit: And just to further clarify, I agree that having most of those things in game would be really cool (except the ones like the body armor which I think don't add much to gameplay besides frustration) but a lot of them face serious technical limitations. 

I just read your edit, the body armor wouldn't be as frustrating as you might think dude, the balance would come in from tactics being used and stacked team bodies, for example the us soldier would be a more effective killing machine, and harder to take out, just like in the real world, but what the opposition may have for example if they are insurgents would be numbers 75vs25 for example, and speed using gorilla tactics etc. The reward for killing american soldiers as the insurgents would be much more rewarding. Not to make it sound dark or anything lol

14 minutes ago, beginna said:

Hello and welcome to Squad @TwistedSunshine,

Technically not feasible.


I can close the thread - if you want me to.

Nah leave it open, posts like this usually start with a lot of turbulence, I promise to be nicer also. Thanks for not already closing it because of a teething issues. Respect dude. 

Edited by TwistedSunshine

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50 minutes ago, TwistedSunshine said:

No offense buddie but it seems your team has fractured thoughts on the matter, because you sure are riding the line of mil sim more closely than an arcade shooter. 

I hear you man, but don't forget, I'm not complaining, I'm giving them my idea's that I think will make the game be written down in history as the best of its time, kinda like what star citizen is doing for space exploration. You can waste 5years of your life making a game that has competitors, or you can make a game that is one of a kind. I want squad to be that game, the developers have all the cards in their hands to do so. They deserve to be recognized. 

Squad has taken a direction that majority of games don't. They either go Arcade(BF/COD) , Tactical arcade(Insurgency) , or Realism/Mil sim(ArmA). Squad taps into all these genres, as its predecessor(Project Reality) did. Squad is already in its own league and is setting a nice benchmark for future games that may take this same game direction. Devs have been mentioning they have a lot of surprises in the future, so I'm sure we'll be seeing some awesome stuff coming.


 

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I believe every last thing on your list there has been already discussed in depth on this forum, @TwistedSunshine.

 

Before you start assuming how old and (im)mature we are, perhaps you should do the mature thing first and use the very powerful search function to find out what has already been discussed about the things you proposed. You'd probably be surprised that there isn't a single thing you've proposed that hasn't been proposed by somebody else in another thread and I really don't see any reason to repeat stuff that has already been said about a year ago every time somebody doesn't take the time to search for it and makes a new thread, because trust me, that happens too often. Do some research, read the old threads, once you feel like you really have something new that needs to be considered by the community and the developers, then post on the old thread.

 

So when we ask "To be or not to be?" about your very own first thread, I'd say it shouldn't be - it's redundant.

 

One last thing, the next time you make a thread, please try to express what the thread is about in its name. "To be or not to be" couldn't be any more vague.

 

Have fun in Squad and on the forums.

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Also here, this is something I read before posting. 

IV. Does your suggestion fit with the goals that Squad is trying to achieve? 
 
       Remember that squad is a unique game seeking to fill a unique genre, bridging the gap between games like Call of Duty, Battlefield, and Insurgency with more mil-sim games like the Arma series. At the forefront, this means that Squad is looking to promote teamwork and communication on a large, combined-arms scale with a basis of realism and without room for the run n' gun tactics so prevalent in many modern shooters. Squad is also notbased on Special Forces units but instead on the infantry and armoured units commonly seen on the frontlines. Keep this in mind when making your suggestion!

 

 

If your suggestion has passed all four of these stages then you're likely good to go, suggest away! If you can, try and make your post well-reasoned, well-explained and with a title that makes it clear what you're suggesting. A one-sentence or poorly-titled post might not get your full point across and undeservedly affect how popular your suggestion is. You should also try to keep the tone of your post suggestive and not demanding, it'll go a long way to getting your voice heard. Please also note that this section is not for bug reports, unless specified. Thank you for reading this guide and spending the time trying to make a worthy contribution to Squad's development.

 

 

 

 


there you can see they mention it being a milsim, and I'm sorry guys, it kinda already is heavily leaning towards that. And there's NOTHING wrong with that. Let's be honest with ourselves we literally have no milsim games. The only milsims are being used by the actual military. I'm a person who respects and craves authenticity and the amazing way games can virtually create the real world. A good example is playing Assetto Corsa vs grid. The latter is unforgiving and you can play without much effort, assetto corsa on the other hand is so difficult but the result of that is such a rewarding experience, I will never forget beating a professional race car drivers lap times on Nurburgring track with a porsche 911. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Dubs said:

Squad has taken a direction that majority of games don't. They either go Arcade(BF/COD) , Tactical arcade(Insurgency) , or Realism/Mil sim(ArmA). Squad taps into all these genres, as its predecessor(Project Reality) did. Squad is already in its own league and is setting a nice benchmark for future games that may take this same game direction. Devs have been mentioning they have a lot of surprises in the future, so I'm sure we'll be seeing some awesome stuff coming.


 

I know dude, it's in an amazing spot. And I'm not saying I want things to be hyper realistic, like people literally peeing themselves in combat. But to be honest the game does lean towards the milsim genre more closely right? 

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5 minutes ago, MultiSquid said:

I believe every last thing on your list there has been already discussed in depth on this forum, @TwistedSunshine.

 

Before you start assuming how old and (im)mature we are, perhaps you should do the mature thing first and use the very powerful search function to find out what has already been discussed about the things you proposed. You'd probably be surprised that there isn't a single thing you've proposed that hasn't been proposed by somebody else in another thread and I really don't see any reason to repeat stuff that has already been said about a year ago every time somebody doesn't take the time to search for it and makes a new thread, because trust me, that happens too often. Do some research, read the old threads, once you feel like you really have something new that needs to be considered by the community and the developers, then post on the old thread.

 

So when we ask "To be or not to be?" about your very own first thread, I'd say it shouldn't be - it's redundant.

 

One last thing, the next time you make a thread, please try to express what the thread is about in its name. "To be or not to be" couldn't be any more vague.

 

Have fun in Squad and on the forums.

So when we ask "To be or not to be?" about your very own first thread, I'd say it shouldn't be - it's redundant. < you are misinterpreting it's meaning, or purposefully misunderstanding it to suit yourself. What you are literally saying, is the idea's I mentioned would not improve and make squad lead the pack, will you openly admit to that opinion?

And before you start saying what I can or can't say about other people, know I will always resort to staying true to myself by saying things how I see them. It's earned me a lot of enemies but it's also earned me a lot of respect. 

Edited by TwistedSunshine

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We'd love 3d scopes, we tried them back in pre alpha, they worked, but they hit framerate super hard. As a result theyre not happening. Thats about it on this front, decision made.

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7 minutes ago, Drav said:

We'd love 3d scopes, we tried them back in pre alpha, they worked, but they hit framerate super hard. As a result theyre not happening. Thats about it on this front, decision made.

Please reach out to tripwire interactive and ask them how they achieved their 3d scopes, they done some black magic or a deal with the devil but it worked for them. There has to be something in that regard that can be done, Even with their shitty problems :)

7 minutes ago, Drav said:

We'd love 3d scopes, we tried them back in pre alpha, they worked, but they hit framerate super hard. As a result theyre not happening. Thats about it on this front, decision made.

at the very least please tell me you will be bringing long range optics into the game, 20x-40x magnification. even a hint. :P

Edited by TwistedSunshine

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7 minutes ago, TwistedSunshine said:

Please reach out to tripwire interactive and ask them how they achieved their 3d scopes, they done some black magic or a deal with the devil but it worked for them. There has to be something in that regard that can be done, Even with their shitty problems :)

at the very least please tell me you will be bringing long range optics into the game, 20x-40x magnification. even a hint. :P

You do know that Tripwire is running their scopes in the Unreal 3 engine which is kinda old and does not need as much hardware as the unreal 4 engine does right?

 

They have 3d scopes on unreal 2.5 (Ro:Ostfront and Killing Floor 1) and modified Unreal 3 (RO 2, Rising Storm and Killing Floor 2)

 

EDT: And most likely Rising Storm 2 which is also still running a modified Unreal 3 engine.

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1. The damage system is not fully done yet, hits on the body armour are going to have a reduced effect I can imagine.

 

2. Game Limitations. You'll either have to live with pinpointing being too easy or atrocious MOAs. Don't think all of it is final just yet, we'll see.

 

3. On games that are way less resource intense. PiP was tried out in some of the early Alpha version, ultimately it's better to have high FPS at all times than it is to model every aspect of the game to be as realistic as possible.

 

4. I do believe, considering that one of Squad's corner features sees people being magically revived, such a feature while neat to not be necessary. I know PR Arma 3 tried a more realistic approach to wound treatment but I just want to play a game, not navigate menus.

 

5. No doubt would it be a nice feature, but you have to consider how long it takes for such a system to be put to good use. I find that enviromental destruction rarely looks convincing, and as such I'd much rather see something else done.

 

6. Dunno, plenty of burning/burned wreckage pictures I've seen over the course of the last years.

 

7. Meh, another indicator and another something that doesn't add a whole lot but eats away development time. Maybe yeah, maybe nah.

 

8. Limitations of a game.

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