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EverydayNormalGuy

Why combat vehicles are somehow weak and LAT- infantry nearly always is going to win!+Suggestions

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Firt I want to make clear I really have trust in the developers and I really think those guys have the potential to make the game one of the best military shooters ever. I appreciate what they have done so far but IMHO they should reconsider the role of vehicles in the game.

 

Before you stop reading please ask yourself the question did you ever play a game of squad in which a single BTR or Humvee survived the whole or at least 3/4 of the round? Second: Do you really fear vehicles ? When you are on patrol with your squad and an enemy combat vehicle suddenly appears do you think **** we are doomed or do you even care ?

Some people might share my opinion others might not but I think vehicles are more or less useless and weak except on Yehorivka and maybe Kohat Radio.

 

No matter whether the answer is yes or no, ATM Light-Anti Tank (LAT) has some major advantages in comparison to vehicles. The main reasons are : ( If you are lazy just skip to D spawning system cause this is the most serious problem!!)

 

  1. It is very easy to avoid vehicles since it is not really possible to go offroad with them cause they alwas get stuck on small trees stones edges n stuff like this. So most of the time vehicles are forced to stay on roads and drive forward or backward, especially on Chora and OP First Light, which makes them very vulnerable for LAT-Soldiers. Infantry can easily go everywhere, so it is not really hard for them to avoid or even ambush them.

  2. Infantry can hide behind nearly every corner or bush, this makes it even more easily for them to avoid or destroy APCs and vehicles in general.

  3. Cause of their size it’s pretty easy to crack them with LAT. The rocket does not even need to hit directly cause HEAT has some kind of splash damage. In comparison if you are a gunner in a BTR or CROWS you have a very restricted point of view and it is pretty hard for you to spot enemy soldiers. It is hardly possible to kill an enemy while they or you are moving. Please keep in mind it is really no problem for enemy LAT to sneak behind a vehicle and attack it from a hidden position.

  4. The spawning system gives infantry the most advantage. Infantry can spawn on nearby fobs and Rally Points. So in theory a huge amount of LAT can spawn and attack APCs or Humvees with their rockets. As a gunner of a BTR or Humvee you cannot kill every f...ing single one of these LAT soldiers. >:( Cause of the reasons I mentioned before, LAT can strike from nearly everywhere. A rally point hidden in a forest next to a road gives LAT a save position from which they can flank and attack combat vehicles, sooner or later you are going to lose your vehicle no matter how good your aiming skills are. If you lose a BTR or Humvee you gonna lose 16 - 30 tickets and a new one is only available in main. You die as an LAT-Soldier no problem !!! Your team is going to lose just one tiny ticket. Just wait 20 seconds and try another attack, the second benefit of dying is that you always start with a fully loaded rocket launcher so you do not really have to care for ammo.

 

This is the main reason why LAT has a major advantage in comparison to combat vehicles. It is very attractive to attack vehicles because the enemy is losing up to 30 tickets. Unlike reality no one really fears the consequences of dying, the game does even encourage you to play aggressively and maybe die in an attack because each time you die you get a fullly loaded rocket launcher!!

I know you can always retreat to repair your vehicle, but why should you? It takes lots of time to drive back to main base or a repair FOB and back to frontline only to be confronted with antother spam of HEAT rockets !! You are more usefull and have more fun if you go on foot. Bearbeiten

Do not get me wrong I like the idea of Infantry being a real threat to tanks and APCs but in this game combat vehicles are not a real challenge for infantry. ATM they are just nice to have but they are not really game changing. They just die too quickly to have significantly impact on the game. (Possible exception Yehorivka)

 

I suggest 5 solutions to make the game more balanced

 

 

  1. Reduce LAT-Kit to one KIT per Squad !!

  2. Make vehicles ignore small trees and bushes, increase their ability to go offroad in general

  3. Give them the ability to use smoke to cover the enemy field of view. The devs already programmed smoke grenades so this should not take that long.

  4. Give them thermals. I know this is a sensitive topic in the community and some of you may consider them unfair, but keep in mind how easy vehicles can die and how short they survive in this game.

  5. If you do not want thermals, at least increase their zoom optic so it is easier for the gunner to spot enemies. BTR or CROWS could also stay a bit out of danger with  better optics.

 

I really would like to hear what the developers think about this, it would also be cool to know what real life soldiers say about how modern military forces use BTR, humvees n stuff.

It really took me some time to write these lines, so feel free to discuss but if you do please behave yourself and do only post serious comments.

 

Thank you for reading this !!:)

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sorry TL DR

but, i think you miss the point of vehicles. Infantry vs vehicles SHOULD always win. infantry + vehicles vs. infantry should have the advandtage.

the reason a btr costs 30 tickets is not because it is expected to win against 15 soldiers straight up. its because it needs to be supported and cared for by infantry.

vehicles are backline support, transport, long range firesupport etc. not the spearhead.

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Honestly, I get where your impression is coming from, especially the last weekend was wreck fest galore, but I don't see any problems with the btr or humvees currently.

The last 8 rounds I've been playing yesterday and today , Squads who used their armored assets as they should, carefully and striking only under the protection of infantry, dominated the battlefield. Especially the CROWS is a beast, it's stabilised weapons system and zoom make it an effective and feared tool on both open as well close quarters sections.

The BTR, I slightly agree, is in a considerably worse position. Due to its sheer size. It's a great way of saying: "Hey, LAT fire here would be great!"

But that's also:
- the way bigger vehicles work... they are just.. big and loud.
- a problem that can be negotiated when using it correctly.

The BTR is NOT an Infantry Fighting Vehicle. It's an armoured personal carrier. It's not supposed to shrug of RPG's, it's just a better truck with a weapons system. Also it's an old piece of crap. ^^

To the notion of thermals and smoke screens: As long as implemented realistically(limited smoke cartridges, realistic thermalvisions of the respective generation built into the vehicle) I've got no problem whatsoever.
Having looked through the thermals of a leopard 2a5 at Base I can tell you though that you might be in for a surprise.
;)




Sorry for any overseen grammar massacres, writing on a phone with German autocorrect.


Greetings,
Tillee





sorry TL DR




What a great Way to participate in a discussion. ;)

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As the other guys said, Infantry support. It's not meant to be an invincible kill streak machine like it is in Battlefield. It's meant to stay with your squad with just the driver and gunner as they support you and vice versa. The squad secures the flanks and the vehicle keeps positions on lock.

 

The issue is people (especially during free weekend) aren't using it correctly.

Edited by Catindabox

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The biggest issue with vehicles is that they are used improperly by and large. People are too used to being able to use them as a hammer in most games (and popular media) when the fact is that they (especially the vehicles we have now) are supposed to a carefully deployed force multiplier. I have had CROWS and especially BTRs in my squad survive at least half if not 3/4ths of the round while also making a major difference.  Some maps obviously are more advantageous to vehicles, but no matter what you can typically adopt tactics which make them useful without exposing them to almost certain death. Also, as in all things with this game, one cannot understate the importance of squad lead comms and the situational awareness that can provide. 

 

 

 

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BTR's and Humvee's as in real life are supported by infantry, they are not supposed to go lone wolfing. And they have a zoom option in case you dindt know, so you can kill enemies from long distances and call enemy positions.  

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It's just a momentary situation. Once you get vehicles capable of long-range fire support you will be outside the range of any lat 90% of the time.

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OPs first post

 

vehicle to infantry balance is fine, much more to come

 

lurk more, play more

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Thank you guys for responding,

 

I know BTR and Humvee are no main battle tanks and vehicles in general are support units and belong in the background to provide long range fire support.

 

The problem is that on most maps they cannot fulfill this role. On maps like Chora or Logar Valley there is too much vegetation,hills, buildings to fight on long distances. You are forced to move your car closer to the enemy and easily end up in a HEAT death trap :/

 

I hope we get more open maps in the future at least when the devs add stuff like M2 Bradley (IFVs) or main battle tanks.

 

But for now the devs should reduce the LAT kit and give vehicles the ability to use smoke ( Of course with limited use ). Cause it is pretty difficult to turn around a BTR on these roads. You often get stuck on small walls, being unable to retreat. Especially smoke could help here!!

 

TLDR people can stop right here.

 

I know it is a major problem in squad that people use vehicles carelessly. Most SL just grab a vehicle, rush in and get blown up by a rocket after a minute or so.

4 hours ago, Shovely Joe said:

vehicles are backline support, transport, long range firesupport etc. not the spearhead.

 

I have already posted a combat vehicle guide on steam that deals with this topic. Sadly it did not get much attention :(

 

I think the wasting of valuable military equipment is going to continue for a while. Very frustrating :/

 

I  might upload this guide here, maybe the community on this forum is more willing to listen.

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26 minutes ago, JozoNalozil said:

you know you can zoom in by pressing q/left shift in the gunner position? keep the vehicle at distance. 

Yes of course I know this.

But I still think it is quite hard to spot enemies hiding in the grass or bushes. I do not want optics  to be as powerful as in Arma 3. Only slightly increased zoom like 25% more would be nice.

A big problem with zooming is that the game engine stops rendering grass on long distances so infantry could not use it for cover. This would be unfair, turning vehicles into real killing mashines from long distances. But I  think max  25% might be just fine.

 

4 minutes ago, Tartantyco said:

onsider that just because the devs dropped vehicles on certain maps, doesn't mean it's a good thing to use them on those maps

Yeah I know it is totally dumb to attack with a Humvee or BTR on Chora Valley. But you cannot forbid them on certain maps cause people would complain about it.

I just hope we get more open maps like Yehorivka  in future that contribute to vehicle gameplay.  

 

On small maps the Devs could reduce LAT Kits.
On great maps with open field of view the balance between vehicle and AT works just fine.

 

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10 minutes ago, EverydayNormalGuy said:

Yes of course I know this.

But I still think it is quite hard to spot enemies hiding in the grass or bushes. I do not want optics  to be as powerful as in Arma 3. Only slightly increased zoom like 25% more would be nice.

A big problem with zooming is that the game engine stops rendering grass on long distances so infantry could not use it for cover. This would be unfair, turning vehicles into real killing mashines from long distances. But I  think max  25% might be just fine.

 

Yeah I know it is totally dumb to attack with a Humvee or BTR on Chora Valley. But you cannot forbid them on certain maps cause people would complain about it.

I just hope we get more open maps like Yehorivka  in future that contribute to vehicle gameplay.  

 

On small maps the Devs could reduce LAT Kits.
On great maps with open field of view the balance between vehicle and AT works just fine.

 

 

The other thing to keep in mind is that as more vehicles (and anti-vehicle assets) are added, ticket balance will change greatly. So instead of being a major high ticket tool, things like BTRs and Humvees ticket value will likely be more in line with their intended transportation role. 

 

But things like reducing the amount of LATs on certain maps (which seems like a stop gap fix) just seems unnecessary. Especially since LAT kits fulfill a very different anti-infantry/emplacement role in this game.

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When i have any heavy weapon, HMG, BTR, Humvee I always as squadleader scout with binos to maximize effect at range to stay away from enemy movement. pull the vehicle back when they get close and maintain range.... this almost works like a charm every time since you have the movement speed advantage. even on chora or OP first light this will work out.

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54 minutes ago, Tennessee said:

But things like reducing the amount of LATs on certain maps (which seems like a stop gap fix) just seems unnecessary. Especially since LAT kits fulfill a very different anti-infantry/emplacement role in this game.

I know this is not the perfect solution but think about the following example: You are a gunner/driver in a Humvee some guy hits you with a rocket. You manage to kill the guy. No problem for the enemy LAT-soldier cause he can just spawn on a hidden rally point nearby, sneak behind you and finish you with the second rocket. Now think about the same situation with two LAT-guys. They can fire simultaneously or with minimal time difference and crack your humvee in one single moment.

 

Unless you fight from very long distances or having very good infantry support that covers both of your sides it is pretty hard to use vehicles effectivly.

 

If you have a decent sqaud that helps you killing all those respawning LAT-Guys (sometimes it seems like a flood) it might be possible. But this is pretty hard to organize since most of the players are not any soldiers or military personel (Including me). Most of the gamers are just normal guys often with no clue about tactics.

 

This video sums up what I mean. Very easy too use a rocket launcher. Just aim and shoot, then hit the dirt to reload and do it again.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Shovely Joe said:

When i have any heavy weapon, HMG, BTR, Humvee I always as squadleader scout with binos to maximize effect at range to stay away from enemy movement. pull the vehicle back when they get close and maintain range

 

Yes I do believe that this did work pretty well. But I remember a game parking my BTR like 3 key pads away form the main frontline and they could still hit it with their damn RPG, luckily they could not crack it :/
 

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7 hours ago, EverydayNormalGuy said:

Before you stop reading please ask yourself the question did you ever play a game of squad in which a single BTR or Humvee survived the whole or at least 3/4 of the round? Second: Do you really fear vehicles ?


Yes and sometimes.

Thing is there are no heavy infantry fighting vehicles in the game at the moment. BTR is an APC, as is the humvee and the CROW humvee is basically a normal humvee with one less seat and a long range optical weapon. None of these are meant for direct fire support, because they don't have enough armor and lack HE ammunition. Once we get things like BMPs and main battle tanks, things will be different. 

However I do agree with you on the LAT kits. In my opinion, there should be some kind of penalty - either to your team or to yourself  for dying with a Fire Support kit.

Edited by Peerun

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The penalty will hopefully come through the logistics system, where spawning with and picking up/rearming kits costs resources. Further limiting the number of kits right now would just be bad.

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41 minutes ago, Peerun said:

Thing is there are no heavy infantry fighting vehicles in the game at the moment. BTR is an APC, as is the humvee and the CROW humvee is basically a normal humvee with one less seat and a long range optical weapon. None of these are meant for direct fire support, because they don't have enough armor and lack HE ammunition. Once we get things like BMPs and main battle tanks, things will be different. 

 

Yes the devs still have a long way to go.  I am very  excited what they bring up next, BMP would be awesome !!!

Do the devs have any plans on this ?? 

 

29 minutes ago, Tartantyco said:

limiting number of kits right now would just be bad.

What if you limit the Heat ammo instead ? One rocket is still a fair chance if you keep in mind that you can respawn or reload on ammo crate. 

 

Maybe this discussion is too early and we ( especially I)  have too wait for more vehicles and maps, but I still think the developers could at least give vehicles some smoke to increase their surviavability ( although I do not know if Humvees can use smoke in reality).

 

Thank you so far I really start to like this community ;)

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I'd say just make support kits cost 2 tickets, to represent specialized weapons/ammunition. People will be sabotaging their own team if they constantly suicide for rockets and other stupid nonsense.

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You have seen what a HEAT round does right? I mean it can go through 500mm of armor. That's 20 inches.

 

There isn't a vehicle in the game with thick enough skin mate.

 

And US Army eval of hits (while training Afghans):

Range Percent
50 m 100%
100 m 96%
200 m 51%
300 m 22%
400 m 9%
500 m 4%

 

 

So deal with it... and pray the US gets the AT-4 once armored vehicles arrive on the battlefield -- the LAW-72 is weak!

Edited by perpetuity

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if you are within 200meters of a flag in a vehical without a route to RTB after the first hit you are doing it wrong.. also the implemntation of kit timers isnt in yet so having people respawn as LAT every 30 seconds is alot different to them losing the kit for 5 minutes for the whole team.

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Play the vehicles right and they're your best friend!! Yes lasted a full round many times plus there's many more vehicles coming 

 

p.s didn't read all of your post way too long sorry 

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@EverydayNormalGuy 

buddy yes. Its is possible play whole game without lost any vehicle or just few. But problem is that people mostly dont know about how to play with vehicle. 

What we can see. Fust rush. Same maneuver which players do on foot. And badabooom vehicle is away. Is that stupid ? Why people cant change theirs behaviour ? Thats strange I have to say. Still same blind rushes. 

The opposite extreme is use powerful crow and approach and let it in middle of nowhere because nobody want waste it. eneby find that vehicle and booom. Vehicle is away and tickets as well. 

So there are question for player who would like play with vehicles. This questio nis simple. 

How can I improve my tactics, movement and gunfire with vehicle to protect myself be useful and have a fun ? 

- open space with vehicle protect infantry 

- urban space infantry protect vehicle 

- any suspicious .. infantry first with vehicle support 

- use distance

- drive stop vehicle turn off engine and jump out and not shoot but search for hidden enemy incoming. 

- gunner watch most dangerous area 

- use terrain as naturally defend obstacle 

- repair your vehicle 

and so on. There are many. But rush doesnt work. Thats all problem. 

 

Expect same with heavier armour vehicles. People are very slowly change their behaviours. As we can see in this game. Most of players still looking rather on Kills than on Deaths. Rather looks for fast rush then check terrain first. Rather shoot at everything than wait. Rather fight everywhere than think about more chance to win in terrain which they choose. People simple play for gunfun and didnt found fun in game itself. 

 

 

Edited by elerik

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