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EverydayNormalGuy

Why combat vehicles are somehow weak and LAT- infantry nearly always is going to win!+Suggestions

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19 hours ago, EverydayNormalGuy said:

I know this is not the perfect solution but think about the following example: You are a gunner/driver in a Humvee some guy hits you with a rocket. You manage to kill the guy. No problem for the enemy LAT-soldier cause he can just spawn on a hidden rally point nearby, sneak behind you and finish you with the second rocket. Now think about the same situation with two LAT-guys. They can fire simultaneously or with minimal time difference and crack your humvee in one single moment.

 

Unless you fight from very long distances or having very good infantry support that covers both of your sides it is pretty hard to use vehicles effectivly.

 

If you have a decent sqaud that helps you killing all those respawning LAT-Guys (sometimes it seems like a flood) it might be possible. But this is pretty hard to organize since most of the players are not any soldiers or military personel (Including me). Most of the gamers are just normal guys often with no clue about tactics.

 

This video sums up what I mean. Very easy too use a rocket launcher. Just aim and shoot, then hit the dirt to reload and do it again.

 

 

 

Yes I do believe that this did work pretty well. But I remember a game parking my BTR like 3 key pads away form the main frontline and they could still hit it with their damn RPG, luckily they could not crack it :/
 

 

Well a lot of this game (and certainly the future of this game) is going to require players to continuously refine their tactics and organizational skills. You think RPGs are bad, wait until you have IEDs, Javelins, FOB based AT weapons. heavy assets, etc. To be honest, if a OPFOR squad is smart enough (and determined enough) to drop a rally and direct concentrated and coordinated RPG fire at your vehicle, then they deserve to win that fight. 

 

I'll be honest, I have never experienced a "flood" of RPGs. I have certainly have had a few very unlucky situations where I directed my vehicles down the wrong street and run into a hornets nest. But almost every other time I have lost my vehicles, it was either due to a bad decision or a calculated risk. 

 

And it isn't about being military, most of us aren't, and I think the military guys would tell you their real world tactics have little to no value in squad.

 

But the game does demand players take into account almost a third plane of thinking, which is what makes this game special. When I am looking at the map and around me, I am constantly trying to figure out how much of the area can be considered secure, where is the enemy spawning from, how long do I have to exploit an attack before they reorganize and come at me with AT weapons, do I risk driving into that village which I have no intel on.... Its mentally fatiguing sometimes, but so much more satisfying. Players who don't think like that, are always going to be at a disadvantage and I think that disadvantage is only going to become more glaring and more complex as the game goes on. 

 

As for the video, while we don't have full situational awareness, I saw what one can assume were bad decisions to push vehicles too far forward. That first attack, why were there no infantry at that position? Did the vehicle rush the flag. Or did the OPFOR simply move in behind advancing forces and find a target of opportunity. Regardless, well played by OPFOR.  On the logi attack, BLUEFOR pushed a logi into an area where the high ground was blatantly still held by enemy forces and just left the vehicle out in the open. I mean those guys weren't exactly hidden from view. 

 

I am not saying that there isn't potential for balance. But I believe the primary problem right now is that many players are just unrealistic about how to utilize their vehicle assets. 

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21 hours ago, EverydayNormalGuy said:

Yes of course I know this.

But I still think it is quite hard to spot enemies hiding in the grass or bushes. I do not want optics  to be as powerful as in Arma 3. Only slightly increased zoom like 25% more would be nice.

A big problem with zooming is that the game engine stops rendering grass on long distances so infantry could not use it for cover. This would be unfair, turning vehicles into real killing mashines from long distances. But I  think max  25% might be just fine.

 

Yeah I know it is totally dumb to attack with a Humvee or BTR on Chora Valley. But you cannot forbid them on certain maps cause people would complain about it.

I just hope we get more open maps like Yehorivka  in future that contribute to vehicle gameplay.  

 

On small maps the Devs could reduce LAT Kits.
On great maps with open field of view the balance between vehicle and AT works just fine.

 

 

What Field of View do you play at?

 

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I know I do fine at the minimum of 90, in the battlefield series I use 74 since it's supposedly a different calculation.

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i normally play at 100-120 on most games.  This game is a must at 90. 

 

I loved when it was down to 65.  Ironsights ftw.lol

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I just uploaded my combat vehicle guide you can find it on the discussion page.

 

It depends on my old guide/ YouTube videos and the things you told/taught me 

 

If you guys have time feel free too look but be aware it  presupposes to read relatively long text

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On 15/11/2016 at 3:19 AM, EverydayNormalGuy said:

Reduce LAT-Kit to one KIT per Squad !!

 

The lack of LAT kit accessibility was the problem with BF2PR.

 

The vehicles are/essentially are gun trucks at the moment. Use them behind infantry.

Edited by quru
Formatting

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On 11/14/2016 at 9:50 AM, Catindabox said:

As the other guys said, Infantry support. It's not meant to be an invincible kill streak machine like it is in Battlefield. It's meant to stay with your squad with just the driver and gunner as they support you and vice versa. The squad secures the flanks and the vehicle keeps positions on lock.

 

The issue is people (especially during free weekend) aren't using it correctly.

THIS

At the end of the day the actual problem is folks bring the "Battlefield" mentality over to Squad (not even speaking on just the free weekend noobs, some continue to try to force Squad to play like BF and get wiped, upset, etc) in pretty much every aspect of their game play....that unfortunately includes the very important vehicles.  Just last night I SMDH as a squad  had TWO BTRs chasing down enemy infantry nowhere near an objective and BOTH got destroyed because they thought they could actually go right into the midst of those infantry squads and just wreck. 

They didn't bother with using distance for an advantage, no cover, no concealment, nothing....just blazing out there as the spearhead of an attack that actually was worthless.  Then they actually couldn't process what happened.  Now this is a pretty bad example BUT I see misuse every game by folks thinking they'll be able to just mow down infantry squads without any care on how they do it.

 

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2 hours ago, STEALTHKILLER said:

At the end of the day the actual problem is folks bring the "Battlefield" mentality over to Squad

 

To be honest you have to blame my "Arma 3" mentality. In Arma 3 I fear vehicles like hell, they can easily wipe out a whole squad. Depending on what weapon system you use it is easy to destroy them with one single rocket.  But they also have serveral methods to counter infantry, including smoke, powerful zoom optics and thermals. Somehow they are "invincible killing machines" at least with this equipment they can turn into one. But we do not need to discuss this further.

 

 

The discussion reveals, a major problem in squad  is player not knowing how to use  vehicles properly. Maybe someone wants to start a new discussion that deals with this problem.

 

 

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1 minute ago, EverydayNormalGuy said:

The discussion reveals, a major problem in squad  is player not knowing how to use  vehicles properly. Maybe someone wants to start a new discussion that deals with this problem.


Why that's very simple. You have to play a vehicle the same way you would play infantry. Use cover. Get highground. Get patched up if you're hit. Etc. The only difference is that everything is much bigger, you cannot be revived, the bullets that kill you in a coupe of hits travel relatively slow. 

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31 minutes ago, Peerun said:

Why that's very simple. You have to play a vehicle the same way you would play infantry. Use cover. Get highground. Get patched up if you're hit. Etc. The only difference is that everything is much bigger, you cannot be revived, the bullets that kill you in a coupe of hits travel relatively slow. 

 

I mostly agree with you. But my intention was not to encourage somone to make a guide but  how to avoid further abuse of vehicles in general.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, EverydayNormalGuy said:

 

I mostly agree with you. But my intention was not to encourage somone to make a guide but  how to avoid further abuse of vehicles in general.

 

 


Vehicle-only maps! You can't teach someone to use a vehicle "the right way", if you won't let them behind the wheel or turret in the first-place. That'd be like not letting people play infantry, because they just got the game and can't use cover or compensate for recoil.

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6 minutes ago, Peerun said:

Vehicle-only maps! You can't teach someone to use a vehicle "the right way", if you won't let them behind the wheel or turret in the first-place. That'd be like not letting people play infantry, because they just got the game and can't use cover or compensate for recoil.

 

I never said we should forbid several people to use vehicles cause they do not know how to use them correctly. Nor do I have a solution for this.

All I  am saying is that it seems to be a major problem in the game and some of you  might want to talk about this.

But this discussion is/was about LAT and combat vehicles. It would be wrong to discuss vehicle abuse here.

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Problem is players that think vehicles in urban combat can dominate the battlefield, they cant/dont on their own.

 

Btr/hmmv are glasscannons that are best used at long range from a concieled (sp) position supporting infantry.

 

The anvil and Hammer. The friendly infantry flank and encircle enemy infantry that your heavy weapons Hammer to death. 

 

IF you you die repeatadly in a vehicle your not using it properly.

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@OP

 

one thing to consider is that neither BTRs nor Humvees are expected to survive for too long in combat enviroments. You pretty much stated the reason why they die so easily ingame and it's the same in reality, for the most part. I know with the cost-benefit calculation being the way it is, it doesn't seem to make much sense to have BTRs be the equivalent of 16 soldiers when they die this easily. However, this is just another iteration of the ticket system for the purpose of teaching players to not waste their shit like crazy. I doubt we will see BTR 80s costing 32 tickets in  the long run, how many will an MBT or Gunship cost if that were the case? 100? 150? 200?

 

I agree with you on the Rallies though and I think they should only serve to maintain Squad cohesion in case half of a Squad gets killed and has to respawn, NOT as an alternate spawn point. To do this let the rally disappear after all members of your squad are alive again or have spawned in. Et voila: No respawning for pesky LATs behind your back a mere minute after they have been killed and further emphasis on FOBs.

Edited by Frontliner

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I hope in future when we have MBT IFV n stuff , you require  a Crewman-Kit to operate them. You shall only use these vehicles if you are part of a vehicle-squad.

 Finally this would  force players to take more care for their stuff.

 

You could operate more independent and SQL can not force you to make bad decisions. 

 

I remember retreating with my BTR from a dangerous situation but SL forced me to come back. He threatened me to kick me from his squad if I would not follow his orders: "We are all dying get over here now... I don't care for your BTR just get over here ... you are completely useless... " and so on.
Result : Squad wiped out, BTR destroyed.... 

 

Therefore we really need a separation between infantry and vehicles. They should fight together but not side by side. 

Luckily the devs have plans on this. In future abusive use of vehicles won't be an issue, at least  not  as severe as nowadays.

 

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7 minutes ago, Tartantyco said:

@EverydayNormalGuy, you can already separate infantry and vehicle squads. What's needed is customized squad sizes/squad locking.


I think what ENG means is a squad that only offers vehicle-oriented kits.

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2 minutes ago, Peerun said:


I think what ENG means is a squad that only offers vehicle-oriented kits.

 

I know what he means. It's a bad idea that adds nothing that you can't do now. It doesn't solve the issue he's highlighting, it doesn't magically make players not use assets poorly, it just reduced the meta-game potential.

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17 minutes ago, Tartantyco said:

 

I know what he means. It's a bad idea that adds nothing that you can't do now. It doesn't solve the issue he's highlighting, it doesn't magically make players not use assets poorly, it just reduced the meta-game potential.


How does locking squads solve the issue?

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8 minutes ago, Peerun said:


How does locking squads solve the issue?

 

It solves the issue because you don't have more members in the squad than are required to actually operate the asset, and you can avoid multi-disciplinary squads.

Edited by Tartantyco

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2 minutes ago, Tartantyco said:

 

It solves the issue because you don't have more members in the squad than are required to actually operate the asset, and you eliminate multi-disciplinary squads.


Then what's the difference with a vehicle squad? If anything, you eliminate multidisciplinary squads that way much better. Oh and wouldn't eliminating multidisciplinary squads reduce  the meta-game potential?
 

Edited by Peerun

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Just now, Peerun said:


Then what's the difference with a vehicle squad? If anything, you eliminate multidisciplinary squads that way much better. Oh and wouldn't eliminating multidisciplinary squads reduce  the meta-game potential?
 

 

I changed the wording in my post just before you posted("Eliminate" to "can avoid"). Multi-disciplinary squads aren't inherently bad, but are rarely good. Allowing the option for multi-disciplinary squads will let players discover what combinations work and which do not. An example of a multi-disciplinary squad that works is artillery/recon. Armor/Logistics was very common in PR(But implementation will be different in Squad, so it might not work as well). You can do that already. You couldn't do that with an imposed vehicle/infantry squad segregation.

 

Vehicle squads do not eliminate multi-disciplinary squads, though. Tanks, APCs, AA vehicles, AT vehicles, Assault Choppers, Transport Choppers, etc., are not utilized in the same manner. You'll have to start categorizing and balancing everything, and now you've added that burden to the game development while reduced the meta-game.

 

Individual assets should be separated into individual squads. For communication, for chain of command, for signalling. Vehicle squad implementation is not needed for this.

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19 minutes ago, Tartantyco said:

Vehicle squads do not eliminate multi-disciplinary squads, though.


Well I am sorry, but if I create a tank squad, then how am I going to double in two disciplines? Hop out of the tank and use my inferior infantry equipment to confuse the enemy?

 

 

Edited by Peerun

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