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Niklasgunner

Criticism on terrible foliage in an otherwise somewhat nice looking game

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54 members have voted

  1. 1. Is OP stupid?

    • yes stop nitpicking you muppet
      17
    • he has a point
      37


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Squad is a very good looking game after V8, the ambience and lighting changes have done wonders, which is no suprise since lighting probably is the most important factor in achieving photorealism. Still, there is something really off about some of the foliage in the game,  and I don't think I'm just nitpicking either. It is mainly the grass, and it is killing the looks of an otherwise pretty game.

 

vEa15oz.jpg

xuHVPk3.jpg

 

Look at these two screenshots, both seem fairly realistic and the general color palette seems right, this is how Squad shoud ideally look most of the time, the thing is, it doesn't.

What I did is, I intentionally hid most of the grass foliage.

 

Often you will be looking at something like this:

 

xwycehH.jpg

 

Here something feels very off. I believe that it is the mainly the attempt to add shadows to the grass texture itself, which seems weird since that wouldn't happen on a bright sunny day, where the light would just shine through. The grass also seems too lush and long for such an arid terrain.

 

But there are much worse examples.

 

s20axiv.jpg

zkM3gYc.jpg

 

In these two images, the grass foliage looks WAY to dark, and clashes with the otherwise grey environment. It happens when you face towards the sun. This is most noticeable on the overcast version of Logar Valley, where the constrast between dark, even close to black, grass clashes with an otherwise bright grey ground texture.  You also notice this black grass sticking out on the second picture at the beginning off the thread, on the right side behind the poppy field. It kinda makes my eyes bleed.

 

Fools Road is also a bad offender at this, but it is not as noticeable since its environment is mostly green, but on grey hillsides there still is the same foliage/ground contrast clash.

 

For the end of this Thread, here is an example about how I think it should probably look like.

On Kohat, the grass is a lot more fitting, it doesn't clash with the dry ground, it looks how you expect grass to look in an arid country.

xQ0Iflz.jpg

jzejVUr.jpg

 

Having some lush grass on maps like chora, where there is irrrigation streams everywhere,  or logar valley, makes sense, I don't want them to look like dry wastelands, but they just seem too randomly placed, too dark and too lush to fit into the environments. Same goes for the hillshides on Fools Road.

 

I don't expect the mappers to redo all grass foliage, which would be a stupid amount of work, but maybe change those specific foliage textures to be more fitting?

 

Do people agree? Am I being silly about this? There is times when the game looks really amazing, especially on Kohat and Gorodok, but I am convinced that the unfitting foliage is dragging down the visuals of an otherwise really good looking game.

Edited by Niklasgunner

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I think they're going to improve the foliage once the gameplay mechanics are all correctly set up and implented, it's really not a priority right now. :)

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I think the trees and foliage looked better pre-v8. I don't know if something changed between the two versions but it's just something I've noticed. I'm sure it will be address in the future but it's always good to provide feedback. I think the Devs are going for a minimalist approach to the foliage textures while they are optimizing and stuff.

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1 hour ago, Guan_Yu007 said:

I think they're going to improve the foliage once the gameplay mechanics are all correctly set up and implented, it's really not a priority right now. :)

 

Obviously it isn't a priority, but the artists aren't the ones working on gameplay mechanics ( not saying they aren't busy ^_^)

 

A lot of foliage like bushes, trees, wheat and poppy fields were already redone in the past, I just hope grass gets the same treatment sometime.

Edited by Niklasgunner

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always found it interesting that car racing games usually have better foliage and landscape map textures than most fps games

 

its all a WIP though

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Another thing is, on Night maps the ground is greyer, because there is less light, but the grass isn't affected, so you end up with a desaturated terrain and a blob of green luminecent grass or a tree out of nowhere.

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I think shadow-casting grass would help alot. UE4.14 has a new shadow-casting feature which might help with that, at a low performance cost.

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Cardboard trees at distance are my biggest gripe, but I've noticed the bitch black grass too.

 

You can see in one of your 3rd screenshot too that the trees have this weird black texture in them when the sun should be making them glow for the most part. 

 

Shadows also just don't feel dark enough in really any of the maps and I miss the really sharp and dark "Epic" shadows  of ~V5

 

 

Edited by Catindabox

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Foliage isn't a top priority right now I would imagine. The only thing I don't like is if you go prone the grass is your worst enemy to being able to shoot back at an enemy. Hopefully they'll make it to where you can lay on top of the grass in the future. 

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Agree with OP; game looks even better with the new light and colour palette sets but the trees and foliage imo needs a serious work. I know the devs have priorities and work schedule of theirs but i hope they revisit the environmental materials as a whole including trees, bushes, plants etc. before hitting the beta phase.

Edited by Aetla

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no.. it won't. That foliage is created specifically to be as efficient as we can get it.. if you guys want to go back to 25fps.. then by all means we will buy a speed tree license and put 6 high poly trees per level.. hehe.. 

 

I just love this discussion.. had it so many times..  

 

If it is a colder season.. sure the grass will be browner.. but not because it matches the bloody terrain!!!   its just dry grass..  

 

When its not winter or near winter.. the grass is green.. the ground colour is a function of the local geology and there IS NO CONNECTION.

 

http://prntscr.com/d4ovlz

 

The only connection is an aesthetic one because you are used to looking at green fields of thick grass.

 

In reality.. that usually isn't reality until the grass gets very thick and you get very temperate.

 

http://prntscr.com/d4owl7

 

another great example.

 

And here.. is a drier season..  

 

http://prntscr.com/d4oxpu

 

Notice that while the grass colour may change basic earthly geology persists..  the ground is ground colour.

 

 end trigger :)

 

 

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, IrOnTaXi said:

no.. it won't. That foliage is created specifically to be as efficient as we can get it.. if you guys want to go back to 25fps.. then by all means we will buy a speed tree license and put 6 high poly trees per level.. hehe.. 

 

I just love this discussion.. had it so many times..  

 

If it is a colder season.. sure the grass will be browner.. but not because it matches the bloody terrain!!!   its just dry grass..  

 

When its not winter or near winter.. the grass is green.. the ground colour is a function of the local geology and there IS NO CONNECTION.

 

http://prntscr.com/d4ovlz

 

The only connection is an aesthetic one because you are used to looking at green fields of thick grass.

 

In reality.. that usually isn't reality until the grass gets very thick and you get very temperate.

 

http://prntscr.com/d4owl7

 

another great example.

 

And here.. is a drier season..  

 

http://prntscr.com/d4oxpu

 

Notice that while the grass colour may change basic earthly geology persists..  the ground is ground colour.

 

 end trigger :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Point taken and you are right, I was wrong.

 

but wouldn't you agree that the black grass on logar akwardly stands out?

 

xuHVPk3.jpg

s20axiv.jpg

 

Wouldn't it look better if that grass had the same color as the trees?

 

Also, if the thread title seemed a bit rude, it's the equivalent of forum clickbait, don't take it personally.

 

Edited by Niklasgunner

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i agree.. lighting issues for sure. 

 

One of the things we are working on is better grading the colour on foliage for all lighting conditions. :)

 

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9 minutes ago, Xx-RAGING-DEATH-xX said:

I Voted for number 1....Shut it you muppet,lol! ;)

Performance & Gameplay FTW over Eye Candy  anytime Imho,

 

I doubt it needs to be more performance heavy, the grass on logar and gorodok looks perfectly fine and those maps are really pretty, it's more about that specific type of grass on Logar and Kohat (maybe because of the lighting) that seems odd to me.

1 hour ago, IrOnTaXi said:

i agree.. lighting issues for sure. 

 

One of the things we are working on is better grading the colour on foliage for all lighting conditions. :)

 

 

Sounds promising, I would hit the like post button if that still was a thing :D

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3 hours ago, IrOnTaXi said:

The only connection is an aesthetic one because you are used to looking at green fields of thick grass.

 

In reality.. that usually isn't reality until the grass gets very thick and you get very temperate.


Not quite. When you see green grass in those places it is always thick. Either it's a big blob, like in the first picture or it's a lot of small blobs like in the second picture.
The reason being that grass is a social plant. Grouping together helps it retain moisture and create a strong root system.

I dare you to find any grass that looks like this. 
s20axiv.jpg

You won't because a couple of strands of grass loosely spaced out cannot survive.

Now this grass over here is a different story
cVTW4BF.png

You can see that the stalks are grouped somewhat tight together and the grass forms a blob. Although it could definitely do with getting even tighter.

Another difference, this time from an aesthetic perspective - it isn't a weird flat plane with textures on it, but what looks like a fairly 3d model. Another thing that gives it bonus points is the fact that it doesn't clip through the ground like the billboard grass.

Edited by Peerun

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5 hours ago, IrOnTaXi said:

i agree.. lighting issues for sure. 

 

One of the things we are working on is better grading the colour on foliage for all lighting conditions. :)

 

If this is one of the worse things we could complain about right now then you guys are doing a pretty good job ;)

Edited by Catindabox

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3 minutes ago, Catindabox said:

If this is one of the worse things we could complain about right now then you guys are doing a pretty good job ;)

 

Ahahaha,Indeed! If we're not complaining about grass,some are complaining about Rocks,lol. O.o

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3 hours ago, Peerun said:


Not quite. When you see green grass in those places it is always thick. Either it's a big blob, like in the first picture or it's a lot of small blobs like in the second picture.
The reason being that grass is a social plant. Grouping together helps it retain moisture and create a strong root system.

I dare you to find any grass that looks like this. 
s20axiv.jpg

You won't because a couple of strands of grass loosely spaced out cannot survive.

Now this grass over here is a different story
cVTW4BF.png

You can see that the stalks are grouped somewhat tight together and the grass forms a blob. Although it could definitely do with getting even tighter.

Another difference, this time from an aesthetic perspective - it isn't a weird flat plane with textures on it, but what looks like a fairly 3d model. Another thing that gives it bonus points is the fact that it doesn't clip through the ground like the billboard grass.

 

You hit the nail on the head there. If the grass actually looked like it does in those pictures, then the colors would be fine, but it doesn't. Now, if Squad had full 3D grass, it would be ridiculous to expect that level of density. The performance impact would be far too great. But it mostly uses flat planes like you mentioned and I don't think making the individual grass textures on the "planes" denser has that big of a performance cost. Lower performance would come from more planes placed in general (I have no idea if this is true tho please don't kill me devs). I'm pretty sure that's the case in the last picture - the grass is still flat but much denser so it appears much more fitting (also I think the tips bend which adds to the 3D look of it)(also the lighting isn't ****ed up).

 

I'm not dissing Squad's flat grass model, it's certainly the way to go with a game like this, where they want the grass to serve an actual gameplay purpose - just look at Battlefield 1's grass and you'll see why 3D grass still isn't viable (even when prone it doesn't obstruct shit cuz it's so spaced out) - unless you wan't to make it so dense that it runs at 10 fps. Gorodok's grass looks much better than BF1's imo, it's just the other maps that need to catch up as well.

Edited by FapMan

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