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Wonka

A FOB without Sandbags is like a shirt without buttons.

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Evening Gentlemen,

 

I come to you tonight to express a concern, a need for us as fellow squad leaders to rethink our common misconceptions on FOB placement.

 

I ask you the dirtiest of taboo questions: Why is there such a dislike to putting FOB's on (or very near too) capable points?

 

Now, I am aware of some arguments to this questions immediately arise: e.g "But if you get wiped on the FOB, the point's easily capable." (Or similar arguments to that effect.)

My answer however is this: Rally points are an alternative, but before that the mindset of our playerbase needs to shift.

 

Because the current "meta" of placing FOB's far away from the action to act as permanent rally points, to me is simply lazy Squad leading. Encouraging zerg playstyle and boring backcaps that steam roll opposing teams. It is a tactic that invites the misguided saying "the best form of defence is attack." 

 

I ask the question, what is so bad about defence? Digging in a position after the logistics truck comes in, dumping its supply in order to allow you to place those 50'cals covering the killing areas, or wiring off the obvious avenue of advance. The wait and then the crack of contact, the round's are flying and the orders are given. And it's you, your Squad holding against a numerically superior enemy, but you have all the comforts of sandbags and wire to even the odds.

 

The options are endless, the Dev's have allowed us to entrench ourselves yet we shy away from building these great defensive work's of art for an unknown reason.

 

The replay ability alone is amazing, attacking a well entrenched enemy, forcing you to actually employ your Squad in a different way, not just following the same cookie cutter tactics employed on the same map rotation.

 

Now, I know obviously, you're reading this, thinking this guy is either onto a valid point, or clearly missed out on every game I've been in, I've seen plenty of FOB's etc.

Well, if the latter is your strain of thought, then perhaps I am mistaken, however with 139hours logged into Squad I have only come across two well fortified positions in my time.

 

I challenge you, break the Meta of lazy FOB placement. Take a stab at holding a point with a FOB a stone's throw away and dig it in. 

 

Who knows, you may just end up with a close knit team by the end of a victorious round.

 

~ Wonka, out.

 

 

Edited by Wonka

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52 minutes ago, Wonka said:

Evening Gentlemen,

 

I come to you tonight to express a concern, a need for us as fellow squad leaders to rethink our common misconceptions on FOB placement.

 

I ask you the dirtiest of taboo questions: Why is there such a dislike to putting FOB's on (or very near too) capable points?

~snipped~

 

I completely agree, but the main reason for this change in meta is habit. When there was only one or two maps(specifically logar and "the forest map") there were serious issues that arose from the 400m FOB radius, and that there was no way to effectively reinforce if the cap(and subsequently the FOB) were to be lost. Then players switched over to Fools road where several of the points have really bad positions that can be easily fired upon from the surrounding high ground, during this time the dev team removed stack-able sandbags and there was no way to provide adequate rocket shielding and standing still within the cap meant instant death. Fast forward to today where vehicles are now in, and FOBs can be hidden all over the map very quickly right off the bat, and you can obviously see the draw of building early and building often. But this comes at the expense of building too close to a cap point and making that point within 400m usually of the aforementioned FOBs. This in combination with the lack of vehicle use after the first wave of troops is making the fortification of FOBs a redundant waste of manpower.

 

In addition to this, with the new system, you require a logistics truck to be present during fortification for rapid expansion, but the only players who can place structures are squad leaders. This requires that the SL give up a combat vehicle in order to establish defenses, but ironically the squad in greatest need of entrenchment is the one on the offensive who captures a contested point. There is then rarely a chance of getting logistical support in due to their being a large and slow target, which means that there is no supply available too.

 

With all the new scopes and vehicles, there is an even greater issue as well, in order for fortifications to be effective, they must fortify in areas that were previously exposed, meaning the SL must expose themselves in the most hazardous areas in order to place the construction stakes, and then several soldiers must expose themselves to construct it. These defenses often provide little real protection from the main threat(RPGs and Snipers) and being forced to be either crouched or standing to shoot over them greatly reduces the range and combat effectiveness of those garrisoning these fortifications. Believe me, in older versions of the game the construction on cap points was meta for the right reasons; the ability to build and resupply is necessary to mount an extended defense and outlast a siege, but a large part of the vocal community was strongly against it. The reason why they were against it was never entirely clear but three main reasons appeared if I remember correctly, reduced game time, map use, and spawn killing. These were huge problems back then to many people but were what made it so much fun to me, and is why I almost never play any more. The unique ways that players built and fortified changed the game every time for the first few months. But then players discovered that there were very specific layouts and compositions that were almost unbeatable and beagn to stagnate the community into slugging matches between the same two FOB compositions every single round.

 

I hope this helps us come up with a solution and bring back some of the gameplay that made squad so special. 

 

NotBrad out.

Edited by NotBrad

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The reason why people don't spend their time building fortifications is because it simply doesn't work. Why would people want to change from an effective strategy to an ineffective strategy, and why would you ask them to?

 

Time spent building is time spent not shooting at the enemy. Fortifying FOBs reduces the maneuverability of the team. Emplacements are just big "Our only team spawn point within 400m is over here" signs.

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1 hour ago, NotBrad said:

Fast forward to today where vehicles are now in, and FOBs can be hidden all over the map very quickly right off the bat, and you can obviously see the draw of building early and building often. But this comes at the expense of building too close to a cap point and making that point within 400m usually of the aforementioned FOBs. This in combination with the lack of vehicle use after the first wave of troops is making the fortification of FOBs a redundant waste of manpower. (1)

 

In addition to this, with the new system, you require a logistics truck to be present during fortification for rapid expansion, but the only players who can place structures are squad leaders. This requires that the SL give up a combat vehicle in order to establish defenses, but ironically the squad in greatest need of entrenchment is the one on the offensive who captures a contested point. There is then rarely a chance of getting logistical support in due to their being a large and slow target, which means that there is no supply available too.(2)

 

 

(1) I'm not sure I agree on your points here, and my only reason for this is this; having a Squad dedicated to defense, I am aware that just putting up fortifications alone is not a viable use of manpower, boots on the ground will hold the point, the fortifications are simply there to assist in doing so.

I have been conducting an experiment over the past week, I've been dedicated defense as an SL every game and I've seen a marked increase in my win ratios (it is worth noting that I am not an amazing player by any stretch of the imagination, however when it comes to FOB construction I've had some real success.

I think provided that somebody is defending the points, building wisely and communicating with the whole team, FOB's on points have their place.

 

(2) With this again, I don't agree with. An aggressive, assaulting Squad does not require anything in the way of fortification, aside from an Ammo crate, or maybe a Ladder to breach a compound. But a Squad playing as a dedicated defense, will have time before contact to dig in a reasonable stronghold, provided the SL has a clear idea on several things: e.g direction of enemy threat, likely size of force and most dangerous avenue they could move on.

As to the Logistics truck, it can dump it's supplies reasonably far behind the FOB without needing to expose itself, this again, requires semi-decent placement of FOB's in order to allow ease of supply.

 

30 minutes ago, Tartantyco said:

The reason why people don't spend their time building fortifications is because it simply doesn't work. Why would people want to change from an effective strategy to an ineffective strategy, and why would you ask them to? (3)

 

Time spent building is time spent not shooting at the enemy. Fortifying FOBs reduces the maneuverability of the team. Emplacements are just big "Our only team spawn point within 400m is over here" signs.

 

(3) I'm simply challenging the current Meta, it seems daft to me to have entire team's all focused on simply attacking the enemy and praying they can sneak around each other's backline, finding FOB's quicker than one another. Because that may aswell be Hide and Seek with an M4. I dont believe it's a 100% strategy, simply because it doesn't always work. We've just allowed ourselves as a community to think that this is the only way of doing business.

 

(4) As much as you may of thought this was a serious remark, I find it laughable, 80% of the time as an attacking force is spent running toward the enemy. As a defensive force, that time would be spent building? Therefor the sentence doesn't hold much water, in my eyes at least.

 

 

 

Edited by Wonka

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@Wonka, I think that you misunderstand my points. The point I wish to make is quite simple. You cannot reinvent the meta by simply telling the community that "you are doing it wrong", the meta of a game is an established means of playing, which is a direct evolution of the first tactics that myself and the other founders established the very first weekend play-test last year in CPA. We did exactly as you suggest now back then, and it worked! But we stopped when it was no longer feasible and never really looked back. Skip ahead 12 months and you are right about now, and although your suggestion would probably make for far more enjoyable gameplay, it only works if all the players participate, including the other team!

NotBrad out.

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It's a video game. With that comes a set of inherent conditions that make static fortifications far less viable, and more easily overrun, than the real-world experience. FOBs on flags get destroyed in almost every instance. 

 

It happens like this almost every time--

 

1) you place a FOB on a Flag and fortify the position, your defences, initially, are well-placed, manned effectively, and ostensibly strong;

2) initial contact is made is made with the enemy. Because it's a game, your outlying screen/picquet is either destroyed or forced to fall back within the perimeter in a matter of minutes. You've lost the initiative;

3) the enemy establishes manoeuvre superiority around the objective: they are free to attack from almost any conceivable angle. You want to attrit their attack or target some of these lines of approach so you select the closest spawn. That closest spawn is your FOB... which is in the middle of the fight. In order to attack the enemy outside of the objective, you need to fight your way out from a single point of origin with the objective itself. This is predicable. And very easy for the enemy to contain. 

4) you start meat-grinding enemy tickets as they force their way closer to your flag, ironically using your own fortifications against you. You realise your own tickets are being meat-ground because you keep spawning into hell itself;

5) you still can't release pressure from outside the objective zone because your nearest spawn is over 400m away. The inexorable enemy assault finally overruns your position. You lose the flag, the FOB, and the initiative.

6) the enemy, that placed FOBs strategically around the map, now start spawning in your rear-areas and assaulting your next defensive flag. You put a FOB on your defensive flag to make a last stand. Go back to 1).

 

The reason the current meta exists is because it works. SQUAD attracts an intelligent and innovative player-base. If there was a better or more effective way to achieve the same result then that, itself, would be the standard.

 

By all means, experiment with new gameplay choices. But don't expect your ideas to gain traction in the wider community unless they're demonstrably better than what is already the norm. If you happen upon an idea that works, then test it repeatedly. If it is indeed better than the current meta, other players will adopt your strategy and you'll see a shift within the community. 

 

 

 

Edited by Cheesy_LeScrub

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It depends entirely on the map. In the early days of Yehorivka, NOBODY placed a fob inside the village because we had the no FOBs on point mindset. After countless deaths running through wide open fields from the treeline FOBs, we learned our lesson. Same with sumari, FOBs on Palace/Police (or really anywhere on that map) can be made impenetrable. That being said, I agree with Cheesy. You need to be able to work different angles when attacking/defending so you can set the terms and location of your engagements.

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Fotified FOBs draw attention and easily become the focus of the entire enemy team, they are immobile, easily assaulted from multiple angles at once and destroyed. More complex FOBs that could be in theory almost inpenetrable take considerable time and manpower to build, while the rest of your team has to fight for objectives weakened by your absence.

 

Hidden FOBs (if placed in a creative spot, not just in the same spot every round) force the enemy team to spend time and manpower to look for them, meanwhile your own team is free to advance to the objective which now has less people defending it because the enemy team has to allocate players to find your spawning point.

 

If it worked otherwise, the meta would change on its own. I attribute the OP's increased winrate after he started defending to a simple thing - random pub squads rarely want to defend, leaving important flags completely undefended or only with a skeleton crew, which often leads to backcapping. Since the OP's team now actually had a squad dedicated to defense, they were safe from a backcap for a certain time and gained an advantage.

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TLDR. FOBs built off of capture points works better than FOBs built on capture points. That's why people prefer the former. No magic.

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Think there should be a distinction between fobs

 

  • FOB              Place for spawning away from flag unprotected. 
  • FireBase      Placed on flag protected by squad/s.
  • FAP               Forward attack point used by multiple squads in assaulting a flag
  • FEK UP         Fob place on flag unprotected and left.

At any position that players use a FOB it should be seen as useful,  there is no one perfect solution.  There are many times having a fob on a flag works and many times it doesn't. Better to have a spawn location than to not. But if you feel that wronged by the placement you can always just dig it up. 

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FOBs will be great again with a few enhancements. Namely firepower. Zoom on the .50 cal emplacements will be huge for people that want to fortify a hill.

 

And I imagine we'll get mortar emplacements and an anti-tank emplacement eventually just like in Project Reality. :)

 

And could we lower the cost of ladders now that they're limited to 5 per FOB? That'd be nice.

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As others have said. Metas are made because they work, and not because the community all agree on doing it. Lol.

 

While fobs can be placed without supply and the .50cal don't have a zoom and is not able to penetrate even a wood fence, this meta will remain.

 

If they change the game and make it like PR, for example: to build a fob would require supply and the .50cal had zoom and bullet penetration, the meta would change. Fobs would become much less spamable and would have to be fortified because it would be too costy to loose one. .50s would actually pin down and kill infantry and so on. (Right now the .50s are more anti-vehicle guns, since the operator will mostly like always die before killing anyone vs infantry)

 

 

Edited by andreher

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At the moment the only really viable fortified fob seems to be a kind of sarcophagus that encases your squad on the point. Only really works, when the other squads are helping out though, so it's only worth to build it on 3rd - 4th flag.

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16 hours ago, Wonka said:

(4) As much as you may of thought this was a serious remark, I find it laughable, 80% of the time as an attacking force is spent running toward the enemy. As a defensive force, that time would be spent building? Therefor the sentence doesn't hold much water, in my eyes at least.

 

And the more time you spend building, the less time the enemy will have to spend in contact while moving to the position. This is exactly the point. Instead of pushing out and keeping the enemy from getting anywhere near the position in the first place, you allow them to get close and you end up losing the position. And realistically, you always end up building these positions while under attack. If not, then you're fortifying the position in an area of no interest to the enemy.

 

Fundamentally, AAS is a game mode of constant offense.  Consequently, fixed defensive positions serve no purpose as they'll either end up being on or near a flag that is no longer in play because your team pushed past that objective, or it will end up in the enemy's hands as they push through it.

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Get rid of FOB spawns and rally points, make main base the only spawn, and make headshots/grenade deaths un-revivable. That would make fortification and defense/supply points much more appealing. Attacking forces wouldn't be able to endlessly spew soldiers at your defenses like conscripts. Medics would actually be used more often.

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Medics would actually be used more often.


And transport vehicles and squads would have a real purpose compared to now where it is just a few guys driving to the battle from main and ditching the vehicle

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It's the meta because it works. Since Pre-Alpha I've witnessed just about every flag FOB out-maneuvered and grenade spammed/smoked out until it becomes a meat grinder for the enemy team to farm off of. I wish emplacements were more useful, but atm all it really does is make you a larger (and stationary) target.

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On 28. 9. 2016 at 10:11 PM, Habeeb said:

Get rid of FOB spawns and rally points, make main base the only spawn, and make headshots/grenade deaths un-revivable. That would make fortification and defense/supply points much more appealing. Attacking forces wouldn't be able to endlessly spew soldiers at your defenses like conscripts. Medics would actually be used more often.


Can agree with that, but make rally points airborne spawns instead of getting rid of them. One time use, so you have to wait for all of your squad to go down if you want 9 guys jumping. And ofcourse increase timer approprietly.

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The fact of the matter is...the pace of the game currently is just entirely too fast for fortified defenses to be viable in most situations. Hopefully soon the maps will get bigger and/or make use of the entire area better. It sort of works in project reality because the game play is so much slower. Hopefully one day down the road gameplay will be much slower...however based on things I have read and heard from the DEVS I doubt it will ever be as slow as PR IMO. Which is unfortunate because I initially hoped that this game would fulfill my dreams of a bigger better PR but I don't think it is going to happen.  I haven't given up all hope though :) just don't have as much hope as I once had.

 

EDIT* That is not to say the game is bad by any means. It just isn't yet what I hoped for. I have enjoyed the playtime I put into it and definitely feel I have already gotten my moneys worth from the game.

Edited by yessnoo

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Which is unfortunate because I initially hoped that this game would fulfill my dreams of a bigger better PR but I don't think it is going to happen.  I haven't given up all hope though  just don't have as much hope as I once had.

I'm excited for the PR:squad mod that will bring more pr-ish gameplay to squad once the vehicles are finalized.

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I think it is great that there are options for altering the environment and that players use these options in different ways. It makes each game different. I encourage anyone to make fob location suggestions in SL channel, it is important that they consider the whole game not just the one fob.  

Varied fob placement has positives and negatives.

The positive of a tried and tested fob location is that players are familiar with the limitations of the position and the negatives include the fact that the enemy has the same advantage of familiarity. 

I find enemy fobs in the same locations all the time and lol at how easy it is to defeat them. Sometimes I and most other experienced players will find them without even needing to backtrack enemy approaches. Once found they are easy to defeat as they have no defenders, they are too far from an objective for the team to be able to save them once found.

One positive of an unusual fob location is the added challenge of enemy finding it and sometimes the benefit of being able to build assets in areas which aid in both the objective and the defence of the fob.

The negatives include the fact that on a flag the area can be surrounded and too many players hide within small areas.

A clever team will defend from the medium distance to provide warning of approaching enemy and to assist in their own surprise attacks. The stupid team will be within 20m of each other and can fail against even a small and poorly orchestrated attack.

A man in the bush is worth 2 in the compound. :D

 

Clever long range placement will force spawning players to take varied routes to the objectives which can help mask the location. Put it behind something so the spawning hordes have to decide which way to go and may choose differently. OR place it so they can move without being spotted.

A good defensive fob needs a good defence, not just a bunch of assets placed to block holes, in many cases these just help the enemy to advance to the walls then hide them while they pick off the suckers inside, personally i think of them as xmas presents just waiting to be torn open :) . Allow movement and vision and actively patrol or stick to the "safe" long range fobs. 

Consider how the enemy is likely to move BEFORE placing the fob (so many are just in a direct line for enemy movement so may fall without providing anything good).

Never block a better fob position without consulting the SL channel.

Be prepared to demolish and admit fault/failure.

 

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I don't have time to read all of these responses, but in my opinion FOB placement at this point in time is based on the past! You didn't have logi trucks to instantly supply you and it took time to build points for defenses. Placing FOB's on points was risky because they got over ran far too often,   especially when you didn't have enough people to defend them. Even though it is hard to change more experienced members minds about it with vehicles in place now it has become a more logical idea that will become a more common tactic in my opinion from here on. Plus when enemies are close the spawn timer goes up on FOB's.

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All this talk of meta and game tactics are really missing the point that THE GOD EMPEROR REQUIRES MORE SANDBAGS. SANDBAGS ARE OUR GUIDING LIGHT AND WITHOUT THEM WE ARE LOST VESSELS OF HUMANITY WITH NO PURPOSE.

 

 

But yeah the construction and soft cover with weapon resting should help the personal FOB defense and make it more viable and testing of flag sizes, placement and amount of flags should help find a new meta of allowable FOB/flag placements.

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Because the sandbags giveaway the FOB's location. If it's on the flag, nobody can enter/leave the flag because some idiot blocked all doorways. Yes superFOB's can work, but you need to focus your whole team to defend it, if you lose it you will lose the game.

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On 12. 10. 2016 at 2:54 PM, Maamyyra said:

Because the sandbags giveaway the FOB's location. If it's on the flag, nobody can enter/leave the flag because some idiot blocked all doorways. Yes superFOB's can work, but you need to focus your whole team to defend it, if you lose it you will lose the game.


I guess that can happen, but whenever I build a FOB on a point I always leave atleast 1 exit, but most of the time people don't have enough patience to find it and just try to jump over the first wall they see or even run through razor wire.

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