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BrossParavoss

Why BTR-80/82 instead BTR-82A/AM?

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According to Wiki Russian Army has: 1500 BTR-80  and 1220 BTR-82A/AM.

As you know, main difference is a 30mm cannon.

Why we get BTR-80 which will be in the minority pretty soon? Because Russian Army add in service 1220 APCs in 3 years.

 

I agree to reduce their number to 4 for the whole round.

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Who says this is made specifically for the Russian Army? This could be aimed at the Milita or even a different nation and simply serves as a placeholder for the Russian faction for now, so people can enjoy the gameplay. Before anyone starts saying "but they made Russian texture so why would they waste time if it's placeholder" - stop right there. Keyword, placeholder.

 

Also, taking numbers from Wikipedia and trying to use them to design gameplay and balance........ no thanks.

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Theres a very simple answer to this. Because the BTR80 is a used a lot by the Russian army still, and is a rough counterpart to the uparmoured humvee. A BTR82 would completely destroy everything on the battlefield while its only opposition is vehicles with 50cals and LAT.

 

Furthermore, we have a BTR82 turret all ready and made. Expect to see it soon!

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Devs who come the US faction got HMMWWs and not apache attack helicopters????

Edited by Romby

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On 26.08.2016 at 2:53 PM, BrossParavoss said:

Why we get BTR-80 which will be in the minority pretty soon?

That's simple because BTR-80 from game mechanics perspective it is similar to HMMV. I am pretty sure that they are using the same code. So it's just a case where you  just need to wait, because 30 mm will require another VFX, another piece of code, another sound FX, another 3d models and etc for all factions. For example if russians get BTR-82A US should have LAV.

 

By the way there are not only BTR-82A in our army, there are also BTR-80A. And in terms of development it is better to make BTR-80A because it differ only by different turret, tires and welded embrasure at the front as far as I know. @ZiGreen should correct me if I wrong.

 

You should ask other questions. Why it doesn't have PKT as a secondary weapon? And why Its aim is so bad.

Edited by FishMan

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On 27.08.2016 at 7:51 PM, FishMan said:

That's simple because BTR-80 from game mechanics perspective it is similar to HMMV. I am pretty sure that they are using the same code. So it's just a case where you  just need to wait, because 30 mm will require another VFX, another piece of code, another sound FX, another 3d models and etc for all factions. For example if russians get BTR-82A US should have LAV.

 

By the way there are not only BTR-82A in our army, there are also BTR-80A. And in terms of development it is better to make BTR-80A because it differ only by different turret, tires and welded embrasure at the front as far as I know. @ZiGreen should correct me if I wrong.

 

You should ask other questions. Why it doesn't have PKT as a secondary weapon? And why Its aim is so bad.

 

Moreover, they already have this turret, because MT-LB 6BM has the same turret 80A has.

 

PKT and aiming are WIP.

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On 2016/8/28 at 0:51 AM, FishMan said:

You should ask other questions. Why it doesn't have PKT as a secondary weapon? And why Its aim is so bad.

I beat you to it and made a thread about this :P Conclusion is that it's still very WIP. Drav was cool about it and answered all our questions.

 

Edited by fatalsushi

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15 hours ago, ZiGreen said:

Moreover, they already have this turret, because MT-LB 6BM has the same turret 80A has.

Yep. This is why it rationally to do 80A.

10 hours ago, fatalsushi said:

I beat you to it and made a thread about this :P Conclusion is that it's still very WIP. Drav was cool about it and answered all our questions.

Yeah I saw this posts. Another good question is why it costs 30 tickets? This is the cost of the tank. It should cost 10 maximum 15 tickets. I dunno which logic they was using, but for me its obvious that 30 is too much for this junk. Because It just not capable to do appropriate damage. And the logic here is pretty simple: Does anyone even managed to do 30 kills using BTR? And how often? So maybe 30 tickets is too much for it? Maybe 3 squads of infantry are better than 1 BTR and 3 squads of infantry can do a way more damage to the enemy than 1 blind BTR with naccurate weapon?

 

For now BTRs is a vehicle that you simply should left on the main base if you want your team to win.

 

I guess someone should create a thread for this question as well.

Edited by FishMan

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3 hours ago, FishMan said:

Yep. This is why it rationally to do 80A.

Yeah I saw this posts. Another good question is why it costs 30 tickets? This is the cost of the tank. It should cost 10 maximum 15 tickets. I dunno which logic they was using, but for me its obvious that 30 is too much for this junk. Because It just not capable to do appropriate damage. And the logic here is pretty simple: Does anyone even managed to do 30 kills using BTR? And how often? So maybe 30 tickets is too much for it? Maybe 3 squads of infantry are better than 1 BTR and 3 squads of infantry can do a way more damage to the enemy than 1 blind BTR with naccurate weapon?

 

For now BTRs is a vehicle that you simply should left on the main base if you want your team to win.

 

I guess someone should create a thread for this question as well.

You have to remember that the enemy also has vehicles that cost a lot of tickets!  If you kill two hummers, which isn't that difficult if you play cautiously, you've taken 40+ tickets away from the them and are already 10+ tickets ahead of the BTR's 30 ticket cost.

 

But yeah, vehicles overall are a bit too much, I think. I would prefer 10 tickets for a hummer and 20 for a BTR. Well, it's all WIP.

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Besides, players are already very uncautious despite BTRs costing so many tickets, imagine if they were "cheaper"? I think the idea for the high ticket cost was for players to value these vehicles highly and so not waste them. Anyway I guess these ticket amounts will be adjusted as new vehicles enter the game in the future.

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Am I the only one that read the update post and the info graphics? 2 humvees = 32 tickets

(All things being equal i.e. fire support vehicles operating with just a driver and gunner team)

 

http://joinsquad.com/readArticle?articleId=108

 

vehicletypes.jpg

 

It's nearly impossible to get an accurate picture of how much ticket loss a well operated BTR can inflict on the enemy team because kills of passengers aren't recorded in the gunner's score or end of round k/d.

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7 hours ago, fatalsushi said:

You have to remember that the enemy also has vehicles that cost a lot of tickets! 

I do remember that. HMMVs should cost 5 and there should be no "claiming" for them. Because they have no zoom and they are even more blind, whats why HMMV even more useless junk than BTRs. Basicly everything which has less than 30 mm rounds is going to be useless.

HMMVs is just a car which has a .50 cal, desn't matter how strong it armor is. They are almoust harmless, any rifleman can do more damage to enemy than HMMV, especially when there are no "kit lost" system, this mean that if you kill AT Riflemen he will just respawn somewhere nearby and will get you from other angle. You'll need to kill him 16 (!!!) times to make the damage equal. Do you think it is possible? (really? Show me!) Thats why PR kit system is better.

 

Again, in the value of the cost is necessary to bear in mind how much damage can do this particular Vehicle. If vehicle driving around and vacuuming the missiles vithout any damage to the enemy team, a reasonable question arises why it is so expensive if it so useless?

 

6 hours ago, Zenrique said:

Besides, players are already very uncautious despite BTRs costing so many tickets, imagine if they were "cheaper"?

I'am going to tell you a story. I was playing recently this game and some guys from our squad took BTR and get stuck. After several unsuccessful attempts to get out, they decided to blow it up. I told them that in this case we will lose 30 tickets. And those assholes just told me "shut the **** up no one cares" and destroyed it. So this is "Squad" which I know. This is why I never listen this crap about players motivation, players (people generally) are allways dicks. And when we speak we should not forget this ever.

This mean that "no one cares" how much cost your BTR, they not going to change their behavior because it supposedly expensive. Every damn moron in this game will drown a BTR in the sea of shit and will call it "tactics". This is just how this communuty work.

 

Again if your team will not use any vehicles at all you will win every round and I'm not joking when saying this. Dude, you can build a FOB without any supply truck in this game!!!!!!  Who needs them at all after this?

 

EARLY ALPHA.

Edited by FishMan

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Much likely it's extremely bugged version of community.But don't worry so much it's only early alpha.

Probably when it's will be released,with such mistakes,there would be more people like me.

Probably local gestapo can hide half of this flamming,but anyway - game will be definitely broken.

Edited by samogon

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Well, back in PR devs themselves have said they couldn't mod the players. So the only way to mold the community is by doing things like ticket costs and other punishments to the team.

Vehicle cost is not just about their capacity to kill, but mainly mobility (or else trucks would cost zero tickets). Just because some people suck at tactics doesn't mean everyone does, you are generalizing too much. Lots of veterans from pr days will use vehicles correctly, it is up to us to show the newbies how to do it right.

Maps in squad are only getting bigger, so mobility will just get more and more crucial. Lots of players complained that Squad was a walking simulator before v7, and now you say we shouldn't use vehicles.

Some people need to play PR to understand where Squad is going to. Don't judge the game too early in development, saying it is or will be broken, as so much is yet to be added and changed and adjusted.

Back in PR there was a joke about every new release a bunch of players cried "oh no you broke the game!!", then after a while everyone was happy playing despite the changes.



Oh and another thing: server admins and rules are important too to shape the community, by means of rules that enforce the correct use of assets for example. In the server I admin at, there will be such rules, so players clearly wasting vehicles may be kicked or banned from the server.

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8 hours ago, Nordic said:

 

I like Squad.

 

 

8 hours ago, Zenrique said:

Well, back in PR devs themselves have said they couldn't mod the players. So the only way to mold the community is by doing things like ticket costs and other punishments to the team.

Thats correct. But when you do 30 for simple BTR you punishing the whole team, while those people who you really want to punish just don't care.

 

8 hours ago, Zenrique said:

Vehicle cost is not just about their capacity to kill, but mainly mobility

For transport yes. But BTR is an APC, which in PR , for example, used not as a transport, but as combat vehicle, and good crew with a good luck can do 30-50 kiils using it. And in PR it cost only 5 (!!!!!!) FIVE!!!! In Squad BTR it just a junk, with a cost of 30 tickers! THIRTY GOD DAMMIT!!!! Imagine how much will cost the tank. I bet 100 tickets. Boom - You have lost the match.

Here is how the same looks in PR (I took it from oficial documentation):

Quote

 

If a team vehicle asset is destroyed it incurs a ticket penalty:

Jeep or truck: 2 tickets

Transport helicopter: 5 tickets

APC/AAV/RECON: 5 tickets

Tank or IFV: 10 tickets

Jet or attack helicopter: 10 tickets

 

Still think that 30 is fair for BTR and Iam just complaining? 

 

#EARLY ALPHA, THIS IS WIP,  SQUAD IS NOT PR, GO PLAY CALL OF DUTY, MISERABLE BASTARD, I LIKE SQUAD, THE DEVS DOING EVERYTHING RIGHT

 

8 hours ago, Zenrique said:

. Lots of players complained that Squad was a walking simulator before v7, and now you say we shouldn't use vehicles.

It still a walking simulator.  And I wasn't suggesting to not use them I said that IF your team will not use any vehicles at all you will win every round, because devs overrate the vehiles. This is evident in statements like "everything will change" from the trailer. But as I can see with the emergence of the vehicles almoutst nothing has changed, because veciles are just not effective against infantry.

 

8 hours ago, Zenrique said:

Lots of veterans from pr days will use vehicles correctly, it is up to us to show the newbies how to do it right.

Damn dude, I do not want to be rude (i am not, it just my english), but why so much pathos?

 

8 hours ago, Zenrique said:

Some people need to play PR to understand where Squad is going to.

Yeah and this people called "squad developers".

 

8 hours ago, Zenrique said:

Back in PR there was a joke about every new release a bunch of players cried "oh no you broke the game!!", then after a while everyone was happy playing despite the changes.

I'am not one of them. 

 

8 hours ago, Zenrique said:

Oh and another thing: server admins and rules are important too to shape the community, by means of rules that enforce the correct use of assets for example

Thats correct. Thats why we don't need any "claiming" system for every damn car, we need better tools for server administration instead. Because vehcile wasting is something what should be resolved by server administration and communuty by it self in my opinion. And even if you want to solve this problem, you should do it AFTER your community will get used to vehicles, not before. So I do not like this "claiming system" and I dont want it to be in the game.

 

Ok. Now I'll need to play some call of duty after this to relax a bit...

Extreme shortage of Call Of Duty in my blood...

 

9 hours ago, samogon said:

Probably local gestapo can hide half of this flamming,but anyway - game will be definitely broken.

Gestapo is really funny :D But I prefer the ministry of truth. Basically a censorship. We've got plenty of such in Russia, thats why it so funny to see the same here, where people thinks that they are different ) Nope. People are the same.

Flamming - An excellent wording, through which you can delete everything you do not like.

Edited by FishMan

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42 minutes ago, FishMan said:

 

Thats correct. But when you do 30 for simple BTR you punishing the whole team, while those people who you really want to punish just don't care.

 

Well, stupid people will be stupid no matter what, so what you are saying applies to everything in Squad: ticket loss for dying and giving up without waiting for medic, not playing for objective (flag capture / defense) and so on. Should devs remove all these penalties too, because of these few bad players? Surely not.

 

42 minutes ago, FishMan said:

For transport yes. But BTR is an APC, which in PR , for example, used not as a transport, but as combat vehicle, and good crew with a good luck can do 30-50 kiils using it. And in PR it cost only 5 (!!!!!!) FIVE!!!! In Squad BTR it just a junk, with a cost of 30 tickers! THIRTY GOD DAMMIT!!!! Imagine how much it will cost the tank. I bet 100 tickets. Boom - Your team lost.

Here is how the same looks in PR (I took it from oficial documentation):

Still think that 30 is fair for BTR and Iam just complaining? 

 

I've never said that. What I said time and again is that this is the first iteration of vehicles, so their values are more an experiment while players learn to use them and evolve the gameplay. Same happened to spawn timers, FOB placement and spawning rules and many other examples of squad features, which when first released were rough and got refined later by testing and players feedback. So although BTR tickets may be exagerated right now, I am almost sure their values will be adjusted in the future, specially when new vehicles come, so as to balance things. Vehicle spawn timers for example are too low too, but then this is mostly to make them more available for players to test them. You are complaining like these values and everything else in Squad was final and definitive, that is absurd.

 

42 minutes ago, FishMan said:

 

#EARLY ALPHA, THIS IS WIP,  SQUAD IS NOT PR, GO PLAY CALL OF DUTY, MISERABLE BASTARD, I LIKE SQUAD, THE DEVS DOING EVERYTHING RIGHT

 

Breathe man, breathe! :D

 

42 minutes ago, FishMan said:

 

It still a walking simulator.  And I wasn't suggesting to not use them I said that IF your team will not use any vehicles at all you will win every round, because devs overrate the vehiles. This is evident in statements like "everything will change" from the trailer. But as I can see with the emergence of the vehicles almoutst nothing has changed, because veciles are just not effective against infantry.

 

They are not effective against infantry simply because they are not attack vehicles but transport vehicles who happen to have a gun on top of them, mostly for defense. If you are using them to attack and kill, you are using them wrong and will lose deservedly. Wait for proper attack vehicles, which will have proper armor and weapons for their role.

 

Are you aware that BTRs should be blown up with just a single AT rocket? So they actually should be lasting even less in the game if their armor were modeled more realistically! Right now there is a major imbalance in AT kit availability, ticket costs and many other issues, but again, devs surelly will adjust this to balance things are gameplay evolves. It is not as simple as copying PR values because Squad doesnt have all PR assets yet, so this temporary imbalance is something we players will have to deal with for a while. And this will happen every time a new asset and feature is added, as devs must learn how they affect gameplay by having us playing the game. So in the end it not that simple as some put it here, it takes time, experimentation, adjusting, fixing, because this is a game in the middle of development.

 

42 minutes ago, FishMan said:

 

 

Damn dude, I do not want to be rude (i am not, it just my english), but why so much pathos?

 

What? Huh... sorry? But that is the plain truth, squad gameplay diverges from other FPS where vehicles are disposable with almost no cost. The closest gameplay is PR, so players coming from there will tend to value vehicles differently, it is that simple, there is no elitism behind this just the fact that experience counts a lot. That is the main reason new players are wasting them right now, because they dont recon the damage they are causing to their own team every time a vehicle is wasted. No one is looking at the ticket counts until they fall bellow the hundread, that is when the clock start ticking for most players. That is the wrong mentality, players should worry about every single ticket from the start of the match, be it from losing flags, FOBs, vehicles or simply dying too many times.

 

Perhaps the scoreboard at the end of round will help making this more obvious, in case devs decide to show all these losses each players has caused, not for shaming but to teach players their actions have consequences, good and bad.

 

42 minutes ago, FishMan said:

 

Yeah and this people called "squad developers".

 

Funny. Anyway, if you hope Squad will be PR with better graphics I guess you will be disappointed.

 

42 minutes ago, FishMan said:

I'am not one of them. 

 

No one ever is.

 

42 minutes ago, FishMan said:

Thats correct. Thats why we don't need any "claiming" system for every damn car, we need better tools for server administration instead. Because vehcile wasting is something what should be resolved by server administration and communuty by it self in my opinion. And even if you want to solve this problem, you should do it AFTER your community will get used to vehicles, not before. So I do not like this "claiming system" and I dont want it to be in the game.

 

Oh I disagree: we admins want to play a bit too, not just babysit a server through the whole match. In fact the claiming system is just one of the tools for server administration, as it keeps lonewolfs and two man squads from taking vehicles by themselves. Otherwise there would need to be rules and admins and reports and manual kicking and banning to deal with this situation, all of which is avoided automatically by having a claiming system. Take it out and servers will turn into clustef*cks, much worse than now. No, thanks, at least until players learn how to use vehicles correctly, but even then a less restricted system would still be very much welcome (again, I guess it be adjusted by devs later on, nothing is set in stone).

 

I don't miss PR's lack of vehicle claiming at all from my admin days, almost all rounds had some kind of trouble with users fighting for vehicles, complaining about asset squads rules and on and on.

 

42 minutes ago, FishMan said:

Ok. Now I'll need to play some call of duty after this to relax a bit...

Extreme shortage of Call Of Duty in my blood...

 

Not sure it was aimed at me, but I never mentioned Cod or BF or what not. You need to chill, it is ok to disagree and discuss different points of view.

 

cheers!

 

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2 hours ago, Zenrique said:

Should devs remove all these penalties too, because of these few bad players? Surely not.

Do I asked to remove all these penalties? Then why we talk about it?

 

2 hours ago, Zenrique said:

What I said time and again is that this is the first iteration of vehicles, so their values are more an experiment while players learn to use them and evolve the gameplay.

Yep. And this is what I think about their first iteration. You mentioned feedback. This is my feedback.

 

Also you mentioned an experiment, experiment means changing somethig mulitle times. Does they was changing something in the past? What and how many times? Once? Then this is not an experiment. 

 

2 hours ago, Zenrique said:

FOB placement and spawning rules and many other examples of squad features, which when first released were rough and got refined later by testing and players feedback.

Not agree. They only solving critical aspects, that are obvious. For example they desided to add a delay if enemy is around the fob to reduce (not remove) spawncamping. The provlem is that such problems are obvious before you implement something. For example 30 tickets for BTR for me for example an obvious bad decision even in theory. I just wondering what they are guided, when making such decisions? 

 

2 hours ago, Zenrique said:

You are complaining like these values and everything else in Squad was final and definitive, that is absurd.

Uh this early alpha shit again. I am clearly understand that the longer something stays in the game the more difficult it will then to change, the more people will going to defend it. Everything is always on the contrary, the closer something is to the final version, the smaller the changes are introducing.

 

In fact, we are moving away from the dialogue themes. Conversation goes about that 30 tickets is too much, and not about whether I should say something or not.

2 hours ago, Zenrique said:

Vehicle spawn timers for example are too low too

As you yourself noted this can be attributed to the testing needs.  30 tikets can not.

 

2 hours ago, Zenrique said:

They are not effective against infantry simply because they are not attack vehicles but transport vehicles who happen to have a gun on top of them, mostly for defense.

This is not true. As I said even in PR it's not just a transport (and most of the time it is not used as a tranport but as a combat vehcile and you know it very well so please stop deny the obvious).

 

Vehicles are not effective because: no zoom (exept BTR), slow (BTR), weapons are innacurate, too expensive (especially BTR), as for militias cars - there are no protection for the gunner. Overal - junk that better be left on main base if you want to win the round. Remove at least something from this list and you will see the results immidietly.

 

2 hours ago, Zenrique said:

No one ever is.

I said that I wasnt complaining about PR changes ever, because with 90% of them I was agree (The ony thing that I hate is "read the field manual" crap). Squad got absolutely different picture. And I have PR to compare. 

 

2 hours ago, Zenrique said:

If you are using them to attack and kill, you are using them wrong

If it just a transort then especially why it costs 30 tickets - you contradicts yourself.

 

2 hours ago, Zenrique said:

Are you aware that BTRs should be blown up with just a single AT rocket?

Counterquestion are you aware that IFVs and Tanks are can be blowned  up with just one AT (PG-7VL) rocket as well? if you hit the ammunition (for example).

And whether it proves that the BTR is effective or what? As I said its not effective because: expensive, not accurate, slow. Make it cheaper, faster and accurate, reduce the amount of AT soldiers per squad (and per team), implement kit lost system (if you die, AT kit will block for your squad for 2 minutes), and it will become effective and gameplay will become more balanced and interesting, even if it will be blowned with only one rocket (2 will be great actually with a chanse to be immobilise, its fair to the crew). Profit.

So please stop this demagogy. Everything is simple as a stick here.

 

2 hours ago, Zenrique said:

So they actually should be lasting even less in the game if their armor were modeled more realistically!

 

Squad is a game the only reason why you need to hit BTR more than once is because it's fair for the crew. And bcides, I am not against one hit one kill. **** it. In TACBF it works fvery well, so why not, just make 2nd line of limitations for ATs and its going to be fine.

2 hours ago, Zenrique said:

It is not as simple as copying PR values because Squad doesnt have all PR assets yet, so this temporary imbalance is something we players will have to deal with for a while.

And who was asking to copy? Damn demagogy. Dude. I am tired to speak about things that even unimportant. I've told you that 30 is too much for BTR. You are not argee with that or what? If you not agree with that - please tell your arguments that will prove your postition. Statments lke "we should not copy PR" does not prove your postion because I was never said that we should copy PR. You just wasting our common time. 

 

Look at the size of this post. And I answered only 50% of what you have wrote.

 

 

2 hours ago, Zenrique said:

So in the end it not that simple as some put it here, it takes time, experimentation, adjusting, fixing, because this is a game in the middle of development.

 

Please give an example of experimentation, adjusting, fixing in the past. 

2 hours ago, Zenrique said:

new players are wasting them right now

Thats not correct. Everybody wasting them right now, old new - doesnt matter. Only what is matter is the cost. 30 tikets and its too much. God dammit. Can you please talk about this damn cost?

 

2 hours ago, Zenrique said:

No one is looking at the ticket counts until they fall bellow the hundread

Finally first sensible statement. Absolutely agree. Thats why 30 tikets doesnt punish anyone because no one care at all. And as I said no one going to change their behavior because of that. So there are no reason to punish the whole team so hard because of bunch of idiots.

 

2 hours ago, Zenrique said:

That is the wrong mentality, players should worry about every single ticket from the start

They are not going to. Dot. Forget about it. People are dicks. And they will stay dicks no matter what you do. So nothing to talk about here.

 

2 hours ago, Zenrique said:

Oh I disagree: we admins want to play a bit too, not just babysit a server through the whole match. In fact the claiming system is just one of the tools for server administration, as it keeps lonewolfs and two man squads from taking vehicles by themselves.

Yeah but claiming every damn pushcart is stupud and ugly. And as I said you should implement this on the later stages. From what I've seen in a game - claming only hinders rather than solve any problems (which in my opinion does not even exists). Nothing has changed - people still throwing vehicles everywhere. And what is more important this problem is something that you can solve later because there are many other more important problems in the game right now.

 

2 hours ago, Zenrique said:

I don't miss PR's lack of vehicle claiming at all from my admin days, almost all rounds had some kind of trouble with users fighting for vehicles, complaining about asset squads rules and on and on.

Freedom is solving this. On our server (Russian Reality PROS) was no asset rule and it was great, there was no complains and everybody was pleased. You foreigners are always making things unnecessarily complicated, dunno why.

 

2 hours ago, Zenrique said:

Funny. Anyway, if you hope Squad will be PR with better graphics I guess you will be disappointed.

I was hoping that they will continue the work that was done in PR. Not reinvent the wheel. And I am allready disappointed as many others. With conversations like that I just taking samples here: whether the community is ready for changes or not, whether do I have to start my own development or they will come to their senses. And the appearance of censorship says that something going wrong, for example.

 

2 hours ago, Zenrique said:

Breathe man, breathe! 

huh, huh, huh, huuuuuuuh...  IT'S A BOY!!!

 

2 hours ago, Zenrique said:

Not sure it was aimed at me, but I never mentioned Cod or BF or what not. You need to chill, it is ok to disagree and discuss different points of view.

It was not about you. Im cool man. Everybody think here that I mad  when I saing things like that this is because my English is bad, basically most of the time there are no emotions on my side, or just a sarcasm, because I clearly understand that conversations like this does not lead anywhere it just blah blah blah....

Edited by FishMan

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31 minutes ago, FishMan said:

Do I asked to remove all these penalties? Then why we talk about it?

I am just exagerating to show you that the problem is not the costs, but players behavior. If high costs doesnt help much, lowering them will help even less, IMO.

 

31 minutes ago, FishMan said:

Also you mentioned an experiment, experiment means changing somethig mulitle times. Does they was changing something in the past? What and how many times? Once? Then this is not an experiment. 

 

Just look at each version's full changelog and search for the words "updated" and "tweaked", there are a ton of examples: weapon recoils, deployables costs, and so on. And we are talking just about what they have documented on the revised changelog, there are many other updates that doesnt even get mentioned.

 

31 minutes ago, FishMan said:

 

Not agree. They only solving critical aspects, that are obvious. For example they desided to add a delay if enemy is around the fob to reduce (not remove) spawncamping. The provlem is that such problems are obvious before you implement something. For example 30 tickets for BTR for me for example an obvious bad decision even in theory. I just wondering what they are guided, when making such decisions? 

 

Huh? Weapon sway and deployables cost are examples that are not critical, people were playing fine before them, most are just fine tuning existing and working features. Everything is obvious after they are done and known, but no one can foresee each and all issues that all future features will bring to the game. And everytime people tried to do that they failed, simply because you waste too much resources trying to predict and model everything under the sun, time much better spent creating just a general high level model and then developing it iteratively, based on real feedbacks instead of a huge pile of guesses. Besides there is no time to add everything, devs chose to release early for reasons already stated.

 

31 minutes ago, FishMan said:

Uh this early alpha shit again. I am clearly understand that the longer something stays in the game the more difficult it will then to change, the more people will going to defend it. Everything is always on the contrary, the closer something is to the final version, the smaller the changes are introducing.

 

If it were so PR wouldnt be what it is now. Remember when deviation was added to it? And many other gameplay changes. And we are talking of a mod. Now imagine an actual game being made mostly from scratch on a new engine by a new indie team... Let people complain, as they did in PR, and as they do in Squad, I firmly believe devs will do what it takes to reach their vision, despite the whiners. And it wont be mine or your vision, it will be their vision, and whoever agrees with that will play the game gladly, others will adapt or move on.

 

31 minutes ago, FishMan said:

 

In fact, we are moving away from the dialogue themes. Conversation goes about that 30 tickets is too much, and not about whether I should say something or not.

As you yourself noted this can be attributed to the testing needs.  30 tikets can not.

 

I agree it is high right now, but I kind of see why devs made it this way, that is the difference. I believe in time players will start to value them more, and having a high ticket cost may help that, and I'll bet this is what devs thought too. But this is just my opinion. Anyway no reason why devs should explain each and every decision they take, it would be abusurd, we should just give our feedback, not judge each and every step they take because they surely have their reasons, this things dont fall off the sky or appear out of nothing like devs were a bunch of stupid morons who doesnt know any better, they already have a monumental job in front of them. Mistakes, adjustments, bad calls are part of the job and it is no big deal, game is far from finished so plenty of time to fix and adjust things as we go before final release.

 

31 minutes ago, FishMan said:

This is not true. As I said even in PR it's not just a transport (and most of the time it is not used as a tranport but as a combat vehcile and you know it very well so please stop deny the obvious).

 

People can take more risks with APCs in PR because there is less AT kits around, but that doesnt make them good attack vehicles, just reduces the chances of them being taken down. And you wont see people that many players coming close to cities for example, most of the time they stay awai sniping from afar, and I believe in time players will start doing like that in Squad too, as bigger maps are released into the game. But right now its down to the balance issue again in Squad, which devs will need to adjust as game evolves. No big deal as I said.

 

31 minutes ago, FishMan said:

Vehicles are not effective because: no zoom (exept BTR), slow (BTR), weapons are innacurate, too expensive (especially BTR), as for militias cars - there are no protection for the gunner. Overal - junk that better be left on main base if you want to win the round. Remove at least something from this list and you will see the results immidietly.

 

Well, did you stop to think that this is all because it is the very first iteraction of vehicles? It is like complaing the cake is raw before putting it on the oven... Makes no sense to buy an early access game and simply not realizing that this is expected. It's the very definition of an Early Access Alpha game: we have access to early stuff, incomplete and buggy while it is being created! We are in the kitchen helping making the cake, instead of just buying it ready from the counter, so we are seeing it raw, without any toppings, unfinished. Whoever feels not comfortable with that better wait for the game to be fully released. The rest of us will have fun with the game at the stage it is, giving feedbacks, and waiting for future refinements and features, no big deal again. And the devs are aware of all that, it is not like they are stupid people who wouldnt know better. It worked like this in PR for 10 years, why wouldnt it work here too?

 

31 minutes ago, FishMan said:

If it just a transort then especially why it costs 30 tickets - you contradicts yourself.

 

I told you, perhaps devs are trying to send a message to new players: better use them correctly or your team will suffer. Besides there are few vehicles and maps are not as big yet, so this value should reflect that and many other factors. As I said, it may not be as simple as using PR values as a reference "because it works there". Just my opinion, once again.

 

31 minutes ago, FishMan said:

 

Counterquestion are you aware that IFVs and Tanks are can be blowned  up with just one AT (PG-7VL) rocket as well? if you hit the ammunition (for example).

And whether it proves that the BTR is effective or what? As I said its not effective because: expensive, not accurate, slow. Make it cheaper, faster and accurate, reduce the amount of AT soldiers per squad (and per team), implement kit lost system (if you die, AT kit will block for your squad for 2 minutes), and it will become effective and gameplay will become more balanced and interesting, even if it will be blowned with only one rocket (2 will be great actually with a chanse to be immobilise, its fair to the crew). Profit.

So please stop this demagogy. Everything is simple as a stick here.

 

I agree with you in all the points there, no one is saying they shouldnt be like this. But you wont see me complaining here since I know vehicles are like what they are right now because this is just their initial release. It takes time to add everything you said, for reasons repeated many times here. Everything you mention and much more should come later, have some patience and confidence.

 

31 minutes ago, FishMan said:

 

Squad is a game the only reason why you need to hit BTR more than once is because it's fair for the crew. And bcides, I am not against one hit one kill. **** it. In TACBF it works fvery well, so why not, just make 2nd line of limitations for ATs and its going to be fine.

And who was asking to copy? Damn demagogy. Dude. I am tired to speak about things that even unimportant. I've told you that 30 is too much for BTR. You are not argee with that or what? If you not agree with that - please tell your arguments that will prove your postition. Statments lke "we should not copy PR" does not prove your postion because I was never said that we should copy PR. You just wasting our common time. 

 

I gave you the reason why I believe devs have decided for them to cost so much. And I believe it will be adjusted to a lower value in the future when other vehicles, maps, kits and features are added, it would make no sense not to, as I said. Why make such a big fuss about it, this is just our opinion man.

 

31 minutes ago, FishMan said:

Finally first sensible statement. Absolutely agree. Thats why 30 tikets doesnt punish anyone because no one care at all. And as I said no one going to change their behavior because of that. So there are no reason to punish the whole team so hard because of bunch of idiots.

 

Again, there must be a cost, small or high, and it will depend on many factors, some of which will depend on community behavior, average server administration quality, general gameplay and others which I believe are not fully known right now. So better wait. PR and its community took 10 years to get to the point where it is now, and in the meantime a lot of things were changed, improved, added, removed, and players learned how best use resources in game. Give devs and community some slack, your feedback was given, now wait for things to evolve.

 

31 minutes ago, FishMan said:

Yeah but claiming every damn pushcart is stupud and ugly. And as I said you should implement this on the later stages. From what I've seen in a game - claming only hinders rather than solve any problems (which in my opinion does not even exists). Nothing has changed - people still throwing vehicles everywhere. And what is more important this problem is something that you can solve later because there are many other more important problems in the game right now.

 

As I said, this is vehicles initial version, I am sure it will be adjusted and improved. Yes, game have issues and lacks a TON of stuff, there is nothing wrong because... I guess you know the reason by now.

 

31 minutes ago, FishMan said:

Freedom is solving this. On our server (Russian Reality PROS) was no asset rule and it was great, there was no complains and everybody was pleased. You foreigners are always making things unnecessarily complicated, dunno why.

 

LOL!!!  Are you serious???? :D

 

31 minutes ago, FishMan said:

I was hoping that they will continue the work that was done in PR. Not reinvent the wheel. And I am allready disappointed as many others. With conversations like that I just taking samples here: whether the community is ready for changes or not, whether do I have to start my own development or they will come to their senses. And the appearance of censorship says that something going wrong, for example.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble: reinventing the wheel is exactly what they are doing right now, and they and everyone else better do it, or else we would be still playing pac-man in green phosphorous CRT monitors to this day. ;)

 

You and many others should reevaluate your expectations, you keep saying "oh I am disapointed" but every sign was already given that Squad wont be PR with nice graphics, so your disapointment is just yourself not accepting reality. There is no "devs coming to their sense", this is just so condescending to say as devs have already proven they can create a game and they have their own plan and vision of what they want to accomplish. Whether it will be what I or you or anyone else expects doesnt matter that much, you will either like it and play it, or you wont like it and move on, it is that simple, devs are not out there to satisfy each persons desires.

 

31 minutes ago, FishMan said:

It was not about you. Im cool man. Everybody think here that I mad  when I saing things like that this is because my English is bad, basically most of the time there are no emotions on my side, or just a sarcasm, because I clearly understand that conversations like this does not lead anywhere it just blah blah blah....

 

Cool, sometimes it is hard to grasp the real meaning behind written words. It is fine to disagree, most times people are able to step onto a higher level with what they take from such conversations, I surely try to.

 

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Big surprise. Another shitstorm on the official forums. How about we all agree that the game is WIP.

Edited by fatalsushi

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2 hours ago, fatalsushi said:

Big surprise. Another shitstorm on the official forums. How about we all agree that the game is WIP.

 

When it's comes with 10+ pages of unnesessary talking - then yes,but yet...

 

#EARLY ALPHA, THIS IS WIP,  SQUAD IS NOT PR, GO PLAY CALL OF DUTY, MISERABLE BASTARD, I LIKE SQUAD, THE DEVS DOING EVERYTHING RIGHT

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2 hours ago, fatalsushi said:

Big surprise. Another shitstorm on the official forums. How about we all agree that the game is WIP.

 

When it's comes with 10+ pages of unnesessary talking - then yes,but yet...

 

#EARLY ALPHA, THIS IS WIP,  SQUAD IS NOT PR, GO PLAY CALL OF DUTY, MISERABLE BASTARD, I LIKE SQUAD, THE DEVS DOING EVERYTHING RIGHT

 

6 hours ago, FishMan said:

Freedom is solving this. On our server (Russian Reality PROS) was no asset rule and it was great, there was no complains and everybody was pleased. You foreigners are always making things unnecessarily complicated, dunno why.

 

Well,it's was the best community server I ever played,before it's died(V.0.85 or so AFAIK).

They was far much effective,whole team acts like a hive.Nobody complaining,nobody waste time.As for vehicle rule - first get,first use.If you didn't - you get another or goes to fight as infantry man.

 

And it's actually far much fair rule:

1)Single squad doesn't have rights to waste stuff a whole round.

2)Everyone wan't to operate something.So they have chance to do that.

3)Usually - those,who able to take vehicle first are the most skilled.

 

So,the biggest part of old-gen. Russian PR community was ex.BF2 teams.They're extremely challenging.So they easy get PR world cup.I was there and I remember it.All of those people was PROS players.

YwzALur.jpg

 

So,I know what Im talking about - Squad is far away from PR.

Edited by samogon

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