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xtali

The argument for kit dropping

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The devs have stated in the past their dislike of kit dropping, as in physical representations of a kit (lets say SL kit) on the ground that you are able to pick up.

Now, I am against this decison and have been since the start, in fact its why I didnt buy it on kickstarter.

They say it is against lonewolfing, honestly I have seen more lonewolfs in here than in PR but that is not what we are here to talk about.

 

The problem now, is that admins are warning people who dont teamplay, as in lets say the SL crashes, the new SL doesnt have the SL kit and is now forced to go off the battlefield to get one or he will be kicked, so he rather gives the role to someone else ect.

Now I know that we have the ability to place a rally with more people ect. but on smaller squads it just more or less kills the squad. Causing one more thing that pisses me off, the fact that clan gameplay, rather than rag tag pubbing gets encouraged (In my opinion this has been getting worse and worse with every feature and might just kill it for me..).

Anyway, I still dont see the argument for no kit dropping, not the realism, none of it, Im about 50% sure its cuz they cant do it, or they want some some "super realistic" game (again I dont see how its unrealistic to take lead or kit, in fact snipers and spotters change roles every hour, lead is given to the highes ranking solider in the squad after an officer dies ect.).

 

For me its a worrying trend, there are all these features, in the name of realism...and it all just seems like they are messing with the formula that was nearly perfect (asside from engine quirks). People still play PR, they do it for gameplay, it is just that simple (the gameplay that is), the learning curve is perfect, I just dont see the point in it all, it worked before, why change it so drasticly now? Honestly if a mod doesnt do it, Im probably going to play PR for the next 10 years until someone does it properly.

 

You have something very special on your hands, the only reason CS is more popular than PR is the graphics, I say that after gaming for the past 12 years, im being serious.

Edited by xtali
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This has been discussed several times and several posts have said no. Even ones you posted on.

 

And in regards to realism, yes it is realism. Not anyone can pickup a gun and know how to use it. Reloading, safety, etc is different on an AK than an m4. Not everyone knows how to fire, reloading MG's, RPG's, LAW's, etc. yes you may do it 1 or 2 times in basic but thats about it. Just like an MG gunner picking up a medic kit and reviving someone, or a medic, picking up an MG and laying waste like rambo. It just isn't practical. 

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But when your buddy is dying next to you and in basic you learned to stick the morphine in to him to revive him ect. you are going to do it, you arent gonna let him die.

When an apc kills your RPG operator, are you just going to let it kill the rest of the squad, or use the little brain you have to put the missile in and press the trigger. Would you just piss your pants when your MG operator dies and you have enemies charging at you or would you take it and keep it firing. Are you going to desert the battle when the SL dies or are you going to take the lead ect.

 

 

What about mortars, hmg's, assets in general?

Or what about requesting kits from crates, do you just instantly become a fully trained medic after being a marksman the whole game?

 

Its just that I see soo many pub games on Squad fall apart because of the reliance on medics, my head hurts every time I have to shout at this poor guy to stay back, to the point that he leaves the squad, people in the squad agree, but they just dont listen, they want to shoot too, not hide away until someone needs them.

 

For something like a HAT,marksman/spotter and enemy kits, yeah I get the argument, that takes real training, but anything else, not really. Maybe just limit the picked up kit to a few items, like the ability to revive, but not to heal, or make everyone be able to revive people.

 

And how about the sniper and spotter argument?

 

It just seems like realism is taking hold of gameplay wayy to much.

 

I might just be used to it, it might just be too early to tell, but it feels like the wrong direction to take it all, PR was just public casual teamwork.

Edited by xtali
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Yea, no kit dropping imo.

I didnt like it at all in PR, people switching back and forth, back and forth in order to get different stuff done. So for me i would dislike it with kit dropping.

 

 

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Pick a kit,work with it in your Squad. Die respawn and reform, I'm a big fan of planning ahead. -1 No kit drop.

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2 hours ago, xtali said:

They say it is against lonewolfing, honestly I have seen more lonewolfs in here than in PR but that is not what we are here to talk about.

I'm quite confident that this is one reason, not the reason.

 

2 hours ago, xtali said:

The problem now, is that admins are warning people who dont teamplay, as in lets say the SL crashes, the new SL doesnt have the SL kit and is now forced to go off the battlefield to get one or he will be kicked, so he rather gives the role to someone else ect.

That sounds a little weird. Also, a dropping SL isn't the norm, it is happening often at the moment due to technical problems. Meaning, later down the dev-road, this shouldn't be an issue. And if, omg, big deal: Suicide, respawn, problem solved, shit happens.

No big drama and I think this is quite a moot point to make only to get kit-switching.

 

Additionally, they could grant the new SL certain rights/abilities even without the kit in the future, like dropping an ammo box where he (only he) can switch to the right kit. There could be dozens of ways to circumvent this "problem", it absolutely doesn't warrant this gamey kit-switching that would defeat a lot of the games core principles.

 

2 hours ago, xtali said:

Now I know that we have the ability to place a rally with more people ect. but on smaller squads it just more or less kills the squad. Causing one more thing that pisses me off, the fact that clan gameplay, rather than rag tag pubbing gets encouraged (In my opinion this has been getting worse and worse with every feature and might just kill it for me..).

Huh? I'm not sure I follow here...

 

2 hours ago, xtali said:

Anyway, I still dont see the argument for no kit dropping, not the realism, none of it, Im about 50% sure its cuz they cant do it, or they want some some "super realistic" game (again I dont see how its unrealistic to take lead or kit, in fact snipers and spotters change roles every hour, lead is given to the highes ranking solider in the squad after an officer dies ect.).

Oyvey, God give me strength.

First of all, you do see the arguments against kit dropping - you just don't accept them, there's a difference.

Second, if you think the devs are unable to implement this kind of feature, yet somehow they are able to create what they so far have created, you weren't paying attention, didn't think this through, or frankly: have no idea what you're talking about. Sure they could do it - they don't want to, with perfectly fine reasoning behind it that, again, you simply don't accept, which is your problem.

Third, they never said they want to create a "super realistic game", the opposite is the case, they always said that is not what they want. They are seeking for a healthy balance between gameplay and realism/authenticity.

 

Now, on the snipers... Please don't spread superficial-knowledge, it isn't helping.

Snipers =/= Snipers. Different units have different SOPs, let alone different countries may operate under very different principles and tactics.

Maaaybe, they do this hour by hour system somewhere, but I'd be very surprised to be honest.

There's no reason to do so and it just interrupts the operational status of a sniper team and causes movement/shuffling around, switching gear, which is to be prevented whenever possible.

No way man. Just, no.

 

2 hours ago, xtali said:

Honestly if a mod doesnt do it, Im probably going to play PR for the next 10 years until someone does it properly.

Yeah man, this 'improper' game doesn't offer this one feature, better abandon it... and don't look back.

 

2 hours ago, xtali said:

You have something very special on your hands, the only reason CS is more popular than PR is the graphics, I say that after gaming for the past 12 years, im being serious.

I can... I can not... I... words fail me.

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Its nothing to do with realism. The realism in PR is in how things look, not how they function.

 

And kits should probably be droppable simply to encourage teamwork.

 

Also last time I checked, there are no sniper kits in squad, so there cant be lone wolfing without sniper kits.

All it would take is a 3 minute timer to be in squad before you are allowed request a special kit, and that would remove lonewolfing. Any long time player of PR would understand the necessity for strict rules.

 

/drops the mike

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there has to be some consequence to dying in this game, if your RPG gunner is being stupid and dies, you have to pay the price of that APC wiping out your squad, its an incentive to play smart IMO 

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I'm confused. Is this game called PR?

 

I don't like the idea of getting team killed because someone wants my kit. I've seen it implemented badly in other games.

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4 minutes ago, Waldo said:

I don't like the idea of getting team killed because someone wants my kit. I've seen it implemented badly in other games.

Good googly moogly, that sounds horrible hehe

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7 hours ago, potNpans said:

Pick a kit,work with it in your Squad. Die respawn and reform, I'm a big fan of planning ahead. -1 No kit drop.

Leads to ticket waste and lone wolfing, once someone sees the medic is dead, they run off more or less to do dammage, at least in PR everyone stays put and is like "well all we need to do is pick up his kit and revive him, no biggie"

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That sounds a little weird. Also, a dropping SL isn't the norm, it is happening often at the moment due to technical problems. Meaning, later down the dev-road, this shouldn't be an issue. And if, omg, big deal: Suicide, respawn, problem solved, shit happens.

No big drama and I think this is quite a moot point to make only to get kit-switching.

Ok lets say SL has IRL stuff to do all of a sudden and he needs to go, where does that leave the squad, well it leaves them in the middle of the field without a SL, he would like to give it to someone else, I mean they are right there in front of him, but they just cant, by the time the new Sl suicides (again wasting tickets, and is given time and score punishment) to get a new kit, the squad might as well go lonewolf, no public SL can stop them, becasue you cant blame them for doing it.

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Additionally, they could grant the new SL certain rights/abilities even without the kit in the future, like dropping an ammo box where he (only he) can switch to the right kit. There could be dozens of ways to circumvent this "problem", it absolutely doesn't warrant this gamey kit-switching that would defeat a lot of the games core principles.

Well im not seeing anything being done, you can shout alpha at my face all you want, but its no excuse (not you but many others when features are discussed), at least lay out the plans for experimenting ect. Last time I checked this is a game so gamey things should be in it and what core game principles are you refering to?

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Huh? I'm not sure I follow here...

As in the SL is switched, but the squad doesnt have enough men in the squad in total to make a rally so they are dead in the field aka lone wolf city.

As to the game becoming more clan oriented, its just a feeling im having for now, its these gameplay changes that are killing public squadding for me. More on that below.

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Third, they never said they want to create a "super realistic game", the opposite is the case, they always said that is not what they want. They are seeking for a healthy balance between gameplay and realism/authenticity.

Gameplay should be king, realism only used to limit gameplay ect. But how at least picking up a weapon from a fallen comrad to protect yourself or save him is ither realistic or good for gameplay is beyond me.

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Now, on the snipers... Please don't spread superficial-knowledge, it isn't helping.

Snipers =/= Snipers. Different units have different SOPs, let alone different countries may operate under very different principles and tactics.

Maaaybe, they do this hour by hour system somewhere, but I'd be very surprised to be honest.

There's no reason to do so and it just interrupts the operational status of a sniper team and causes movement/shuffling around, switching gear, which is to be prevented whenever possible.

No way man. Just, no.

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It's an old german ww2 tactic, from which all modern sniper combat is derived from.

Anyway, you really think a taliban that just saw his RPG operator fall would just leave that RPG there on the floor and let himself be killed, or try to use at least the one shot in the rpg? I mean them hajis are stupid, but not that stupid.

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Yeah man, this 'improper' game doesn't offer this one feature, better abandon it... and don't look back.

Look, all I want to do is have a good time in this game, I just want to team up with pubbies and have fun, more on this in the closing.

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I can... I can not... I... words fail me.

CS was a mod once, their devs recreated what was good about the mod and improved upon what were clear failiures of the engine at the time ect. I really do believe casual mil sims have a big market, let me tell you a quick story, a few months ago my good friend that I met in DayZ was streaming Squad, he has a few K followers and loves having a good time, I offered to lead him trough PR showed him all these amazing videos ect. he loved it, but said he couldnt play that, the graphics look like they are from 2006 (guess what they are), but lo and behold when you get people to play it, they stick around.

5 hours ago, winterfell said:

there has to be some consequence to dying in this game, if your RPG gunner is being stupid and dies, you have to pay the price of that APC wiping out your squad, its an incentive to play smart IMO 

So if you were stuck getting shot by armour and the solution was right in front of you, would you just leave it there and die, or would you fight to the death like any good taliban.

2 hours ago, Waldo said:

I'm confused. Is this game called PR?

 

I don't like the idea of getting team killed because someone wants my kit. I've seen it implemented badly in other games.

I remember a PR dev saying that the blacking out of the screen when you picked up an enemy kit was less than 10 lines of code (cant find the qoute).

Anyway this kind of thing is easily fixed, as in you dont even drop the kit when you are teamkilled, or you punish the teamkiller by not allowing him to operate assets or take kits from crate ect.

 

In closing.

Look, im an old time SL, I just love taking pubbies and giving them orders like they are maggots, its fun as hell. Im not saying Squad is all bad, gunfights and UI are miles ahead of PR. But in this area, it is my opinion that they are going the wrong route, I dont think it makes sense with ither the realism or gameplay, it just isnt helping anyone or anything. It is really killing public games right now, the squads just fall apart like weeks old bread, once a medic dies its "lets just rush in" behaviour, and I cant stop them, because they are entirely right, I would do that if I were them. There is a string of gameplay changes that are killing public squadding and making it more of a clan game, where you have someone on teamspeak and can influence them better to do things as planned. Squads just fall apart if you order people around too much, SL"ing is a hard enough job as it is, people rarely want to do it, dont make it even harder.

I just love what PR is and was all these years, and as I said if need be Il play it for the next 10 years, its miles ahead any AAA title out there.

It may be that Im just not used to it as someone said earlier, and it might be alpha bla bla bla, but at least lay out the plans. The current solution is false on every front, both the realism and gameplay front, at least in my opinion.

Edited by xtali
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1 missed LAT shot or armour spotting and killing your LAT guy 1st leading into decimation of the entire squad is not the gameplay I want. Same goes for a medic.

 

A much better system than picking up kits would be picking up equipment - medic bag, patches and epipens / LAT / HAT / AA / ammo - all depending on the kit. You shouldn't be able to loot other kit's patches though, only the medic.

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Copy and Pasted from another thread...

 

The problem with picking up weapons and stuff is that squad is a game and not based in reality. For it work you would have to have a system where if you die you dont respawn.... then your body stays where you died and your team mate can pick up you weapon BUT you dont magically reappear with a new one 30sec later. You cant really have it both ways as its too easy to exploit, like you could very easily end up in a situation where you have a every member of your squad with a LAT or half your team running about with GL's ... then everyone would be moaning about grenade spam. I know its pretty unrealistic but I think its just a rule that works for this game IMO... it forces you to look after your key assets.. RPG guys and medics need to be protected while your standard rifleman is the cannon fodder. There are loads of times I've run out of ammo and wished I could pick up a fallen team mates AK or M4 but you know what defending yourself with a pistol is a lot of fun!  

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2 hours ago, banOkay said:

A much better system than picking up kits would be picking up equipment - medic bag, patches and epipens / LAT / HAT / AA / ammo - all depending on the kit. You shouldn't be able to loot other kit's patches though, only the medic.

 

I agree, except for patches. It is general issued item, every kit has them and every player is able to use it on allies hence every player should be able to pick it up.

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would be great to ask ammo from squad mates or blueberrys.. if the corpses stay in the ground rearming on them would be great too. If that dont work for the devs would be great to have some ammo at rally points because now that big pile of backpacks is kind of useless expect the spawns. For now we need to go rearm at the fobs and that kind of makes the people lonewolf if u are only one out of ammo..

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Regardless of "kits" being pickupable or not there needs to be some sort of system that lets you use equipment or weapon from your wounded or dead comrade.

 

Out of ammo but your squadmate is down? Too bad can't pick up his rifle!

You're the medic and out of bandage? Too bad can't use the one that your friend died with!

 

The best thing in my opinion would be to implement a penalty system for using something that isn't yours to begin with. Which includes enemy weapons and equipment.

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8 hours ago, xtali said:

Leads to ticket waste and lone wolfing...

[Citation needed]

 

 

8 hours ago, xtali said:

Ok lets say SL has IRL stuff to do all of a sudden and he needs to go...

I already answered that, you even quoted that part as well. I wonder, did you read it? And did you understand it?

at this point I'm already demoralized to read on, let alone continue spending my time to explain the most obvious to you... but well.

Also, how often does that REALLY happen?

A good SL takes his time, everyone who plays this, knows he has to take time for this game. Interruptions can happen, again: I already gave an answer for that case.

 

 

8 hours ago, xtali said:

I mean they are right there in front of him, but they just cant.

They can't, because they play a role, not a kit.

There is a difference you refuse to see/understand.

 

And stop it with the lone wolf straw-man, it is BS and you know it. People don't go all Finding Dory all the sudden, forgetting what they were doing 5 seconds ago, just because the SL dropped. They communicate, adapt and improvise. If they won't they weren't good team mates to begin with and no kit in the world can fix that problem.

 

 

8 hours ago, xtali said:

Well im not seeing anything being done, you can shout alpha at my face all you want, but its no excuse (not you but many others when features are discussed), at least lay out the plans for experimenting ect. Last time I checked this is a game so gamey things should be in it and what core game principles are you refering to?

There's nothing being done there, because there's nothing to do.

Also nothing to do with alpha. That argument would imply that a feature is planned yet not implemented at this point.

It isn't planned (last I heard). Move on.

 

What principles?

For one, that you play a role, not a kit.

And if things go wrong, you - as mentioned above - communicate, adapt and improvise and deal with it.

You work with what you do have, not with what you would like to have.

 

 

8 hours ago, xtali said:

As in the SL is switched, but the squad doesnt have enough men in the squad in total to make a rally so they are dead in the field aka lone wolf city.

Ah, I start to see where your constant "lone wolf" talk is coming from, you misunderstand the term.

Half a dozen squad members, working together, having a plan (mostly) and being temporarily without a leader aren't "lone wolves".

 

 

8 hours ago, xtali said:

Gameplay should be king, realism only used to limit gameplay ect. But how at least picking up a weapon from a fallen comrad to protect yourself or save him is ither realistic or good for gameplay is beyond me.

Gameplay in Squad IS absolute king - anyone who says anything different either has no clue or is flat out lying.

Picking up a weapon to improvise is something that might get into the game at a later point, I think. There's also nothing that speaks against it, as a soldier's basic training usually covers all the basic weapons and in an emergency situation it doesn't matter anyways.

However: Alpha. (you asked for it...)

 

 

8 hours ago, xtali said:

It's an old german ww2 tactic, from which all modern sniper combat is derived from.

WW1/2 snipers, in most cases, not all - yet surely on the German side - rarely operated in pairs, they mostly went out alone. and if they had company, it was rarely another sniper.

Sniper/spotter teams both observe, constantly. So what you said doesn't make any sense and smells like typical half-knowledge picked up somewhere on the internet that was misunderstood and re-fabricated so now we have this nice myth of that "old german sniper tactic".

Also, to say "all modern sniper tactics" derived from old (German) tactics is... amusing.

But this is OT and hey...I actually stopped trying to enlighten people on that specific topic ages ago, it is pointless due to all the BS "information" out there.

 

 

8 hours ago, xtali said:

Anyway, you really think a taliban that just saw his RPG operator fall would just leave that RPG there on the floor and let himself be killed, or try to use at least the one shot in the rpg? I mean them hajis are stupid, but not that stupid.

It is funny how you speak against 'realism' to diminish other peoples points, yet conveniently use authentic real life examples to support your own.

Picking up an RPG and using it also differs strongly from BEING something you're not (SL example).

 

A car dealer won't suddenly turn into a Surgeon because he found a scalpel, but he might be able to use it to cut out a newspaper article, who knows...

 

 

8 hours ago, xtali said:

Look, all I want to do is have a good time in this game, I just want to team up with pubbies and have fun, more on this in the closing.

So, all that and everything else Squad offers can't top that ONE little feature?

Then Squad really isn't for you, I think. But it is irrelevant what I think in that regard.

And I won't even address the Counter Strike related stuff. I still haven't recovered from that bomb you dropped yesterday.

 

 

8 hours ago, xtali said:

But in this area, it is my opinion that they are going the wrong route...

What gave you the impression that this was unclear or had to be said again and again?

I think everyone is very aware of your opinion.

 

Edited by Lethargo

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This is literally the same thread we had a few months back, and the one before, and another one before that. Why aren't we reviving the old threads, with all the arguments, cons and pros that are listed there? Why do we need to make a new thread about this and copypaste the same things over and over again?

Edited by MultiSquid

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A dev has responded. I'm closing this for now as the discussion has been had for almost two years now. A dev can choose to reopen the discussion at any time.

 

 

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