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Release: Alpha Version 7.7

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1 hour ago, Psyko said:

omg another fanboi "it's hardcoded" excuse.

Nah, just another reasonable explanation from a bloke who has decades of programming experience under his belt.

 

1 hour ago, Psyko said:

Here is exactly what I think. 

Great. I'd rather read statements from people with an intimate knowledge of UE4 than your opinion.

 

Just a bit of food for thought.

 

You didn't have to purchase the product in it's current state. You did not have to purchase the product in its current state

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2 hours ago, Zenrique said:

 

 

My take is more based on my 20 yrs of experience as a programmer / system analyst, although not in game but in telecommunication systems: excessive optimization early on can be bad, because code is still in high flux, you risk spending time on parts of code that may as well be thrown away or heavily modified, or ever worse: make bad design decisions that you will regret later on. Better create a solid design first, add features (both with optimizations in your mind but not as the major goal),  then profile and optimize based on real world data instead of just assumptions.

 

Specially in the case of Squad, since devs are learning as they work on a new engine, it is much harder to foresee where the choke points will be. Take the netcode for example, they assumed UE's standard network module would bear vehicles in large maps with tens of players, but when it was almost ready to release they ran into issues and had to rewrite major parts of the networking code, which took months due to the complexity of such things. No one could foresee that, understandably so, being a new team on a new engine and so on. Had they invested in optimizing everything vehicle related back then, part of it would have been thrown away probably, since some parts of the vehicle system had to be rewritten. And perhaps some of the gains obtained would have been lost or ineffective, when the new netcode system was completed.

 

TL;DR: optimizations are good and should benefit everyone, but that is no excuse to put the cart in front of the horses.

 

 

Everyone seems to be throwing around that magic word "optimization", but I personally don't feel that adequately describes what should have already happened. I agree with Zenrique on one thing though...create a solid design first.

 

What I would consider the foundations of the game, that everything else is built upon...is the netcode and server animation systems.  The developers knew full well these key systems (IMHO) were broken a year ago back in the closed pre-alpha and alpha sessions.  Those who played in the closed sessions have seen what the performance is like with 100 players in a server...even i7 systems choked.

 

The developers have known those particular choke points for quite some time.  It's not like they just magically appeared during the EA release or when vehicles were implemented.  Instead of fixing the glaring problems or contracting out to someone to fix them, they basically slapped a fresh UI on the game, limited the player counts to 72 players and packaged it up for release on Steam.

 

SQUAD is (as has been) hyped and advertised as supporting 100 players, when it can barely support 72 reliably.

 

In my mind, that's not a matter of "optimization"...it's more like fix the broken foundation of your game...before you start piling everything else on top of it.

 

Obviously those aren't the only issues in the game affecting performance, but I'd say they're rather significant. 

 

So here's to hoping the developers don't just optimize and tweak SQUAD...but actually FIX the broken aspects of the game.

Edited by SSIXS
edited for piss poor spelling...just ignore the bad grammar and run on sentences...lol

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2 hours ago, SSIXS said:

In my mind, that's not a matter of "optimization"...it's more like fix the broken foundation of your game...before you start piling everything else on top of it.

 

 

You peppered your post with a lot of qualifying "this is just my opinion" statements, so in that sense I can only say I disagree with your premise, but you're obviously more than entitled to your opinion. 

 

You use the word "broken", which I think you bandy about too lightly. Broken implies does not work, but the game does work, it just performs terribly (relative to other games of the current era, not taking into account viewdistance etc differences). That is the textbook case for the use of the word optimization, in my (software engineering) opinion. 

 

If you are referring to the fatal errors or times where intended features don't work, that is broken. They identified that the existing netcode did not work with their vehicle implementation and thus delayed vehicles while implementing their own netcode solution... isn't that exactly what you wanted?

 

The animation system is over-blamed as a performance killer IMO, but I hope to be proved wrong. 

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1 hour ago, Psyrus said:

 

You use the word "broken", which I think you bandy about too lightly. Broken implies does not work, but the game does work, it just performs terribly (relative to other games of the current era, not taking into account viewdistance etc differences). That is the textbook case for the use of the word optimization, in my (software engineering) opinion. 

 

 

 

Sure, the game "works" as long as it's limited to 72 players. Even then it's rather sketchy for some folks.  SQUAD doesn't just perform terribly relative to other games, it performs pathetically when pushed to what is advertised.  Would you classify the game as "working" when testers couldn't even move? 

 

You're a software engineer, so please provide us with some educated speculation. If a multiplayer only game can perform reasonably well (for an alpha) with 40-50 players or even 64 on a server, then performance begins to deteriorate exponentially  when reaching 72 and tanks with 100 players...what other server side system(s) would cause this abrupt decrease in performance across all servers and maps ?

 

Professionally speaking...what's your general course of action when you know a problem exists and you seemingly can't solve it in the immediate future? 

 

Do you keep your clients or boss waiting for months on end as you try and find a solution?

 

Or do you look outside of your own talents or ego and contact others to see if they've run into a similar problem...maybe even bring in an outside contractor to help you solve it?

 

Call it what you will...optimization or fixing...but after a year, it's long past due. 

Edited by SSIXS

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6 hours ago, SSIXS said:

Would you classify the game as "working" when testers couldn't even move? 

 

No, that is a good example of a bug, otherwise known as "broken" by your previous post. That requires "fixing", it is a different issue to what we're discussing here. If you start bringing that kind of thing up, there is no response besides "Alpha stage, please be patient". 

 

6 hours ago, SSIXS said:

If a multiplayer only game can perform reasonably well (for an alpha) with 40-50 players or even 64 on a server, then performance begins to deteriorate exponentially  when reaching 72 and tanks with 100 players...what other server side system(s) would cause this abrupt decrease in performance across all servers and maps ?

 

Generally speaking, what is happening on the server will not affect your client side FPS. I can't think of any (although I don't have much experience in the area so I could be wrong) situation where rendering would be blocked on network activity. The closest thing you would get to serverside performance affecting the client directly is when you play on servers that don't have enough grunt for the vehicles' physics/net processing and you get rubberbanding on the client side, but only when in the vehicles. But you'll note that it does not affect your frames, just your position in the game. 

 

6 hours ago, SSIXS said:

You're a software engineer, so please provide us with some educated speculation.

 

The devs already know the major root causes of the issue, it's just a vicious cycle of "implement feature -> requires optimization -> implement new feature -> requires optimization etc etc". The problem with games is that for the most part, they are quite hard to multi-thread, and the reasons for that are far too many for me to care to explain. Here is some light reading if you legitimately want to educate yourself. Essentially, squad has "bad" performance because the main thread running the game on the CPU, incidentally named the "game thread", becomes a big bottleneck and the rendering data can't get to your GPU to spit out, so your frames (the output) suffer. This is not just a squad problem, it's a big problem that compounds exponentially as resource-eaters are added to the game. Each new actor (in UE terms) may have a bunch of processing going on during each tick, which loads up on the game thread, and when you add many of those actors (for example, a new player joins the server), the game thread becomes increasingly bogged down. Why I said it is not a squad problem is because of the following article which I implore you to read if you're interested in doing more than just complaining in a meaningless fashion. 

 

https://www.unrealengine.com/blog/how-to-improve-game-thread-cpu-performance

 

After reading that, this thread may make much more sense to you:

 

If you look at my post [here], you can note I posted one with my character looking at the sky, where you can see performance hardly changes. This is a surefire way to know that it is not your GPU suffering, but your CPU. 

 

* If your performance goes down while lots of stuff is happening on screen but if you turn away from it, the performance goes back up, it's a GPU problem. 

* If your performance sucks despite staring at the floor or the sky, it means your system is choking on the CPU side (usually). 

"So why don't they just fix the game thread problems?" you might ask, but if you read the above articles that I posted and recall that we are still in a very feature-incomplete alpha stage, you should realize that whatever optimization you do for X version, in Y version there may be a whole bunch of new features that will eat up game thread time, killing performance again. So the solution is what the devs are currently doing.

 

  1. Develop new features (I am sure they are performance conscious while doing so, I can tell you it is not fun going back to already finished code to fix it up just for performance each time)
  2. Gather performance data/feedback
  3. Optimize back to playable
  4. Go back to step 1

A major potential problem -  Blueprints

 

Prototyping and some pretty core features are done in blueprints which while very convenient, have quite a bit of overhead. C++ code is around 10x faster, according to the Unreal Devs:

https://answers.unrealengine.com/questions/41895/performance-comparison-between-blueprints-c.html

 

I believe the UI is still being done entirely in UMG, which is heavily connected with blueprints, and why I lose 5fps just from opening my map (that's 15-18% in my case), so that is loading up the game thread too, as far as I know. 

 

Finally, there is the animation system which has the whole bones issue, but I am not sure if that is even still a thing. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/joinsquad/comments/3zf2r8/the_reason_we_have_performance_issues/

 

In reality, it is most likely one or two rather large CPU time offenders, but also a host of smaller unoptimized pieces all working together to hurt performance. Until the game is feature complete and tested (ie beta stage), the major optimization passes would be wasted time, delaying the final release. Naturally intermediary optimization is necessary and actually does take place, but it isn't going to be anything to write home about. It's just something you have to accept. 

 

 

6 hours ago, SSIXS said:

 

Professionally speaking...what's your general course of action when you know a problem exists and you seemingly can't solve it in the immediate future? 

 

Do you keep your clients or boss waiting for months on end as you try and find a solution?

 

That is a moot point, because your boss or client would be abiding by the development timeline and waiting for the release version, which in squad's case I believe has not been set in stone, but they are hoping for a late 2017 RC, from what I recall. Your boss/manager, if they were even a little bit competent, would not be nitpicking during the alpha phase because they know how a software development cycle works. :)

 

6 hours ago, SSIXS said:

Or do you look outside of your own talents or ego and contact others to see if they've run into a similar problem...maybe even bring in an outside contractor to help you solve it?

 

Hopefully after you have read my response, and all the links that I posted, you will realize that this final snide remark of yours has virtually no relation to the current situation, and if you honestly think that OWI haven't contacted Epic or others in the industry regarding issues they face, then I believe you are quite ignorant to the caliber of the developers on this team. 

 

Edit: if you have a passion for learning, here is some specific ue4 threading  documentation related to the rendering engine 

 

https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Programming/Rendering/ThreadedRendering/

Edited by Psyrus

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52 minutes ago, Psyrus said:

 

a great response by Psyrus

 

+1

 

May I add the following: it is not like the devs are searching for the correction of the performance issues but can't find it: they know what the choke points are and they have already stated some of them here on the forum, reddit and discord. Psyrus explained why these come up, it is part of the process of learning how de engine works and developing at the same time, you add something new and then you are able to check how it performs on a large scale. And even after you test and verify and double-check and so on, there are still issues where you least expect them. Something related to it that I have experienced too many times: Demo Effect

 

So the performance fixes are mostly known, It is just that it takes time to implement them (hence v8). Some are easy but needs time because they will have to change and verify a LOT of small things manually, others take time because it requires developing/replacing complex systems (llike happened with netcode).

 

Some here complain of problems as if devs were doing it on purpose (oh you sado-masochist OWI), were slacking (what, vacations? how dare you!), incompetent (they should have foreseen the unforeseeable!) or plain dumb (the problem is this and that, fix it already!). You have no idea what it takes to create a game this size and complexity. Cool down, take some time off and return when game is more stable. :)

Edited by Zenrique

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A large part of the complainers simply don't understand what Early Access means and what they signed up for.  The result is that they get annoyed and vent on the forums which is understandable even if they are wrong or don't understand basics of software development.  I get that.

What I would like to point out is that the actions of "fanbois" is also not helpful.  For every poster who leaves an informative reply like Zenrique or Pyrus, there are 2 or 3x more who actively make the situation worse by either making uninformed comments and assumptions about the complainant.  These comments range from recommending ridiculous hardware upgrades to downright insulting them by telling them they should be grateful and thank the Devs no matter what.

Case in point is when I had to tell a poster he was being stupid for recommending a CPU upgrade earlier in the thread when v7 dropped and made the game straight up unplayable for a ton of folks and had nothing to do with his CPU.  

Equally annoying are posts justifying not being able to play the game at all by saying its Early Access.  We know its in EA.  We know we had a working EA game in v6.  A game that we could play and the core gameplay was pretty damn good.  It is a huge downer for someone who was able to play the game and all of a sudden not being able to play at all or having FPS cut to a point where its a slide show.  Especially annoying is tone of the comments coming from a lot of the posters which as mentioned before seem to take issue that there are any complaints at all, and that everyone should just be kissing the Devs feet regardless of the state of the game.

By all means educate people on whats going on and what to expect from EA.  But don't be dingus like this douchebag.

On 8/22/2016 at 10:00 AM, El Duderino said:

It's a fact, that a lot of people across the world are mental underexposed, densed, dimmed or how you like to describe it. It's not my purpose to offend them....it is just like it is. Other people with higher cognitive skills get it very fast, that Squad is currently in a alpha state of development - but that doesn't mean that they know what alpha means in SW development.

 

I guess we just have to be patient with those comments (I responded also some days ago on such a comment...demonsie me if you want). You can write thousand times and more (as it happend in this forums here and on other forums) that this game is still in alpha and that you can read on steam what does it mean when you buy a "Early Access Game" BEFORE you buy it - the flood of unqualified comments won't stop. I bet 2 or 3 comments below this one here that the ****storm continues.

 

But don't get me wrong! Again - I don't want to offend someone here. Some are more clever, some are less clever. It is like it is - without judgment.

 

 


Even if the game is in EA, when the game goes from playable, to 100% non playable, people are going to get upset to some degree.  And for those who are now at 100% nonplayable (not me thankfully), I can understand why its so frustrating.

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I sincerely don't understand why people are complaining about performance of a game that is still in deep Alpha stage of development when it clearly states every now and then while loading the map: "Features are subject to change." And all of us who bought the game were warned that the game is in Alpha and full of bugs ang glitches. The reason why I bought the game is to support developers. And I don't expect game to be developed faster just because i paid for it. It's just a way to say "thank you and keep up the good work" to the devs.

Edited by yanot

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I am just here to whine. When reasonable people like @Psyrus paint me up to be the bad guy I get sad that I can't have my fun any more... 

ಠ_ಠ

But really folks; if you don't like where this is going, you should buy a ticket to Italy, go to Venice, find the most distinguished violin maker and request the worlds smallest bow to be made so you can join with me so I can finally use my minuscule violin to play the worlds saddest tune.

trollface.jpg?1296494117

Now of course those of us who knew about this game way back in October or September and have followed it's development since as far back as we could will wait patiently for it to ripen into the product we were promised according to the time-frame that was promised. I was the 87th backer on KickStarter, and was here on these forums last January. I contributed as positively as I could have during that time and was fully aware of how long these types of games take to mature. I SPENT $3K ON A NEW COMPUTER, and still can't run Squad. Was I upset? A bit. Did I vent on these forums? Yes. But did I cut down the developers and tear them apart on a personal level for their inability to meet expectations that were never even suggested? No. They are a new studio, working over long distance communications at most times, and they have a very small team. They have major challenges to overcome and they try as hard as they can; we should at least restrict our criticism to things they can control and change.

NotBrad out.

Image result for drop the mic and walk away gif

Edited by NotBrad
stuff

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13 minutes ago, NotBrad said:

... I SPENT $3K ON A NEW COMPUTER....

 

 

Spent about $1600 last September altogether and I average about 35 fps, which I consider playable for Squad, at least while vehicles are still new.  Others will be asking about how much you spent probably, and hopefully, this being mentioned now helps blunt what could be harsh posts.

 

I genuinely think you mean well.  Simply think you could accomplish more by being less focused on how Squad is not meeting your expectations.  Look more toward now and the future.  Anyway, CMK out

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Great patch! Works great on my computer at around 40-50 fps 

B ut i use the settings to maximize the crisp 

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8 hours ago, CageMatchKimsey said:

I genuinely think you mean well.  Simply think you could accomplish more by being less focused on how Squad is not meeting your expectations.  Look more toward now and the future.  Anyway, CMK out

?

My point in all of that was that the developers never promised me anything and I agreed to spend the money on this game and a new computer anyway, I was upset but I knew what I was getting myself into before I started, my message was to all those who are being childish and complaining that a game that was originally supposed to release in late 2017 (which was made clear back in June 2015 btw...) hadn't met their expectations.

Edited by NotBrad

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Hopefully after you have read my response, and all the links that I posted, you will realize that this final snide remark of yours has virtually no relation to the current situation, and if you honestly think that OWI haven't contacted Epic or others in the industry regarding issues they face, then I believe you are quite ignorant to the caliber of the developers on this team. 

 

Edit: if you have a passion for learning, here is some specific ue4 threading  documentation related to the rendering engine 

 

https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Programming/Rendering/ThreadedRendering/




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After readin' a few pages of comments, I've come to a conclusion that this thread is a place where people vent their grievances...

 

*Insert remark about the instant gratification generation here*

 

Instead of whining here about how your potato can't play the game, why don't you guys put your effort into constructive means? You know, like reporting bugs and problems so they can be ironed out so that the game gets to the eventual release sooner than later?

 

I suggest that you guys actually read the fine print before hitting that 'purchase' tab next time. Yes it's shitty that there are problems while this game is being developed, yes most AAA titles are optimized better, and yes there are 'problems' within the game that currently make it annoying to play for a length of time. This development team is small, and things take time.

 

If you've been here for a while, you'd remember the days where as infantry you couldn't even go prone. Then prone was released and people started hovering etc. The same sort of problems and bugs will be encountered with the vehicles, but they will be fixed. I can imagine that we'll go through the same problems when air vehicles are released also. This dev team is chipping away at what amounts to be a HUGE game, and the work that goes into it is something that you'd generally only see in a AAA title. 

 

If you're getting that heated at this developmental process, that you're letting your rage flow here, I would has it a guess that you should step away from the computer and enjoy the sunshine - there are things out there that your energy is better spent on.

Edited by BattIeBorn

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On 8/24/2016 at 6:49 AM, Psyrus said:

 

Long, elaborate post

 

 

That was the best post I've ever read in these endless whining threads. Thanks for spending the time to put it together.

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Yes I have had 90% success rate with this latest fix. Sry to those who haven't but it will come. No point in saying this since you've heard it a million times. Patience is key, once the bugs are sorted out you will play this game (if you're not already) non-stop. Enjoy! 

 

edit: punctuation

Edited by IWI-GALIL5.56FA

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On 8/26/2016 at 9:26 AM, BattIeBorn said:

Instead of whining here about how your potato can't play the game, why don't you guys put your effort into constructive means? You know, like reporting bugs and problems so they can be ironed out so that the game gets to the eventual release sooner than later?

It's honestly sad how apologists have always tried to act like anyone who mentions the awful performance has a slow computer, but after V7 this myth has been completely put to rest.

 

Everyone is getting bad performance, not just people with dated rigs. Brand new i5/i7 machines with killer video cards either can't hit 60 fps or just barely do, and turning down the settings does nothing to help. 

 

This isn't right, and it isn't normal. It isn't that the game doesn't run as well as some other games, it's that the game doesn't run well period. 

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5 minutes ago, lawnboy said:

It's honestly sad how apologists have always tried to act like anyone who mentions the awful performance has a slow computer, but after V7 this myth has been completely put to rest.

 

Look, you can be constructive and helpful without continuously harping on this concept that there's some sort of coordinated echelon of the community who are out to shame everyone who has critical feedback of the game or something.

 

It does nothing to help anyone.

 

Be constructive, feel free to air your critical feedback.. but don't turn it into an 'us vs them' situation just because you're frustrated some people don't seem to care about what you do. Let it go.

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So I just wiped out my computer and now it's not letting me play Squad. I keep getting a launch error. What should I do?

Should I delete local content or backup game files?

Edited by WarEagle751

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5 hours ago, IRONXBAY said:

 

Look, you can be constructive and helpful without continuously harping on this concept that there's some sort of coordinated echelon of the community who are out to shame everyone who has critical feedback of the game or something.

 

It does nothing to help anyone.

 

Be constructive, feel free to air your critical feedback.. but don't turn it into an 'us vs them' situation just because you're frustrated some people don't seem to care about what you do. Let it go.


The same could be said of the people ignorantly telling people to upgrade their rigs?

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Just now, mikec81 said:

The same could be said of the people ignorantly telling people to upgrade their rigs?

 

Indeed, and those people are just as much to blame for being non-constructive.

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On 8/23/2016 at 4:23 PM, Togisan said:

completely agreed..

I have tried to explain the same thing several times, optimization should be the first , cosmetics and contents after especially for unknown and fresh developed game engines 

 

Actually you're supposed to optimize AFTER you put all the content in...

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