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XB0CT

Nightvision, a balanced and authentic way of implementaiton.

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There have been a few topics on this, but I decided to make a new one to try and start fresh.

 

Let's take a look at an example of good implementation of night vision in a video game.

 

Dyslexci from shacktac has created an NV mod for his own community as he was very unhappy with vanilla ArmA 3s implementation, if you watch through the entire video you'll notice a few features.

  1. The PSV-14s have a small FOV, with the outer perimeter being slightly visible but still very hard to see through, representing the fact your eye can still see from the monocle.
  2. Using NV with your scope is a big no no as most are incompatible, using your PEQ15 is pretty much required.
  3. Even with the night vision on, as it is a night with no moon it is still difficult to see through your NODs.
  4. If you do attempt to use your scope, your vision becomes incredibly blurry.

 

Playing a map at night with this authentic portrayal of night vision, would provide a very different game experience compared to what most games offer currently, and perhaps offer another asymmetrical gameplay layer when playing against insurgents who have no NODs, forcing players to actually fight like true guerillas when engaging enemy forces.

 

I would like to see a developers opinion on this matter.

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I agree that seeing night vision would be nice. It would be a fun way to add variation to the game and can easily be balanced out by items such as flares (which will destroy the eyes of anyone wearing NODs other than AN/PVS-21s), flashlights, or any other source of light that can be directed (maybe floodlights and spotlights for area denial)?

 

It's authentic, realistic, and can be balanced in a natural way that requires teamwork and planning. I see this as having no drawbacks looking at it from a developer's standpoint. 

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That system of Dyslexci's is quite something! It would certainly be cool to have in the game, if possible. 

 

I guess it is kind of a chicken-and-the-egg conundrum. If night maps are set be a small fraction of the layers or maps (let's say like it is now, less than 20%), then the manpower to implement the nightvision in such a deep manner would probably outweigh the gameplay benefits and I assume the devs would divert their attention elsewhere (a new faction, feature polishing etc). On the other hand, if there was such an awesome nightvision system as described above, already in game, I think night maps would become a lot more commonplace. I think the gameplay would be very different from the regular day maps and could end up being heaps of fun, if it were balanced properly.

 

Honestly I would be fine with it either way (in the game or not), but I would prefer to have it in. If you get on the modding discord (after vehicles have been released) and have an in-depth talk with @RoyAwesome, I believe he said that he wants to dedicate a day per month or something to opening up parts of the c++ code (to blueprints) that will help modders. He would probably be able to set something up such that if you had a dedicated team of modders, you could implement this kind of stuff through blueprints. Then if it was properly done (like Dyslexci's), I would assume it would be considered for integration into the main game. 

 

Edit: Just to stress, I am making a large amount of assumptions in the last paragraph, and certainly don't speak for the devs regarding mod inclusion, just saying that given their engagement with the community (and how often I hear how much they love mods), it could be possible

Edited by Psyrus

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5 minutes ago, Psyrus said:

That system of Dyslexci's is quite something! It would certainly be cool to have in the game, if possible. 

 

I guess it is kind of a chicken-and-the-egg conundrum. If night maps are set be a small fraction of the layers or maps (let's say like it is now, less than 20%), then the manpower to implement the nightvision in such a deep manner would probably outweigh the gameplay benefits and I assume the devs would divert their attention elsewhere (a new faction, feature polishing etc). On the other hand, if there was such an awesome nightvision system as described above, already in game, I think night maps would become a lot more commonplace. I think the gameplay would be very different from the regular day maps and could end up being heaps of fun, if it were balanced properly.

 

Honestly I would be fine with it either way (in the game or not), but I would prefer to have it in. If you get on the modding discord (after vehicles have been released) and have an in-depth talk with @RoyAwesome, I believe he said that he wants to dedicate a day per month or something to opening up parts of the c++ code (to blueprints) that will help modders. He would probably be able to set something up such that if you had a dedicated team of modders, you could implement this kind of stuff through blueprints. Then if it was properly done (like Dyslexci's), I would assume it would be considered for integration into the main game. 

 

Edit: Just to stress, I am making a large amount of assumptions in the last paragraph, and certainly don't speak for the devs regarding mod inclusion, just saying that given their engagement with the community (and how often I hear how much they love mods), it could be possible

I don't think just saying "Just mod it in" is something we should be going for, it is still very early in development.

NVGs fit squad very well, this should be a core feature in my eyes.

 

 

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Just now, XB0CT said:

I don't think just saying "Just mod it in" is something we should be going for, it is still very early in development.

NVGs fit squad very well, this should be a core feature in my eyes.

 

Did you see anywhere in my post that said "just mod it in"? -_-

 

I was just saying that if you wanted to be sure of being able to play squad with the system you detailed, modding is the best way to accomplish that (and trying to help you by giving you some pointers about how to go about that). 

 

I got that you want it as a core feature, thus you made this thread in the suggestions section. 

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5 minutes ago, XB0CT said:

I don't think just saying "Just mod it in" is something we should be going for, it is still very early in development.

NVGs fit squad very well, this should be a core feature in my eyes.

 

 

So far I disagree, playing as someone without night vision would be incredible frustrating at the moment. (IMO)

 

Maybe if we get more flashlights and flares/flaregun´s for the opponent. But other then that I would really dislike night vision.

 

EDT: Would be cool for special missions like squad ops though but not the "vanilla" game.

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11 minutes ago, koschilein said:

So far I disagree, playing as someone without night vision would be incredible frustrating at the moment. (IMO)

 

Maybe if we get more flashlights and flares/flaregun´s for the opponent. But other then that I would really dislike night vision.

 

EDT: Would be cool for special missions like squad ops though but not the "vanilla" game.

 

Why would it be difficult? It's already been established that, even with Gen 3 night vision, ambient light is rarely enough to see out to any great distance; this is assuming there is no moon. In the event there is a moon, then seeing a decent distance would be perfectly viable with both NODs and eyes, no? NODs might let you see further, but you have a restricted, fuzzy field of view that will blind you in the event that someone shines a 50 lumen flashlight in your direction. 

 

On top of this, it's not as if the insurgents can't have small amounts of night vision. The NPSU is a thing, you know, and they're pretty easy to get a hold of anywhere in the world cheaply (about $400 in the US). AKs have night rails, so maybe one guy per squad could have one?

 

How about my ideas involving floodlights and all that other good stuff? The point is you're focusing on the "right now" rather than the "what it could be". With the argument you're currently using, vehicles shouldn't be added "right now" because America won't have any armored vehicles like Russia will. 

 

Why is difficulty a bad thing? It's not light night vision is the end all be all of seeing at night. 

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6 minutes ago, VarenykySupreme said:

 

Why would it be difficult? It's already been established that, even with Gen 3 night vision, ambient light is rarely enough to see out to any great distance; this is assuming there is no moon. In the event there is a moon, then seeing a decent distance would be perfectly viable with both NODs and eyes, no? NODs might let you see further, but you have a restricted, fuzzy field of view that will blind you in the event that someone shines a 50 lumen flashlight in your direction. 

 

On top of this, it's not as if the insurgents can't have small amounts of night vision. The NPSU is a thing, you know, and they're pretty easy to get a hold of anywhere in the world cheaply (about $400 in the US). AKs have night rails, so maybe one guy per squad could have one?

 

How about my ideas involving floodlights and all that other good stuff? The point is you're focusing on the "right now" rather than the "what it could be". With the argument you're currently using, vehicles shouldn't be added "right now" because America won't have any armored vehicles like Russia will. 

 

Why is difficulty a bad thing? It's not light night vision is the end all be all of seeing at night. 

Maybe I just think that way because I hate night maps in the game and mostly every MP first person shooter at the moment. I always goes down on gamma settings and feels like some people are cheating with that settings.

 

I think that NVG´s and the whole lights at night stuff is development time that could much rather be spend on other new systems and factions for the game. But as I stated that is my opinion.

 

EDT: Maybe I would be more of a fan of NVG´s if I had a better PC, because of how the shadows and lightning are rendered for me at the moment.

 

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that system looks pretty good but could still be much improved upon,

 

like having outside the middle monocular circle as true color rather than just a darker version of the NV image, so that the IR lasers and stuff didn't carry across to the outside.

 

Also you should be able to use certain sights with NVG depending on what NVG model and Sight combo is used. 

 

The idea of having the monocular with holo sights is that the dot or holo should super impose itself on top of your vision, so you have 1 eye through the NVG monocular one eye through the holo and your sight picture should be the night vision circle with normal vision all around, with the red dot super imposed over the top of the whole lot.

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2 hours ago, VarenykySupreme said:

I agree that seeing night vision would be nice. It would be a fun way to add variation to the game and can easily be balanced out by items such as flares (which will destroy the eyes of anyone wearing NODs other than AN/PVS-21s), flashlights, or any other source of light that can be directed (maybe floodlights and spotlights for area denial)?

 

It's authentic, realistic, and can be balanced in a natural way that requires teamwork and planning. I see this as having no drawbacks looking at it from a developer's standpoint. 

 

yeah, adding industrial lights, generators, etc for insurgents would be not too hard and interesting.

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The floodlights and generators are fixed to a location and noise generating, while the NVGs are silent and mobile. This could be an issue, no?

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30 minutes ago, smokyhook said:

The floodlights and generators are fixed to a location and noise generating, while the NVGs are silent and mobile. This could be an issue, no?

 

How about a spotlight rigged up to a car battery, drop it in an alleyway or chokepoint... wait for goggle boys to turn up and blind them.

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33 minutes ago, smokyhook said:

The floodlights and generators are fixed to a location and noise generating, while the NVGs are silent and mobile. This could be an issue, no?

 

Edit: Carlos was the first.

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Then there could always be lighting/flares setup on trip wires... loads of ways to balance out or beat the tech.

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2 minutes ago, smokyhook said:

But does all of that(flares,NVGs,floods, etc) make the game better?

yes

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In a town, nightvision can be both useful and non-useful. Street lights may hamper NVGs. Also the lights are on inside the buildings, maybe a secondary objective is to cut the power.

 

 

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53 minutes ago, smokyhook said:

But does all of that(flares,NVGs,floods, etc) make the game better?

 

29 minutes ago, Odd_fella said:

In a town, nightvision can be both useful and non-useful. Street lights may hamper NVGs. Also the lights are on inside the buildings, maybe a secondary objective is to cut the power.

 

 

 

Imagine Fallujah at night

 Night%20Shot%20Nondescript%20Fallujah.jpThree%20Marines%20Night%20Fallujah.jpg

some compounds well lit, others not, but hazy streetlamps dotted around, sure the military faction would have an advantage on the outskirts in the wide open surroundings, but in the city with the various levels of lighting that the insurgents can use to there advantage, imagine the possibilities, it brings a whole new dimension. 

 

compounds could have light switches to illuminate them or darken them, street lamps i think should be non switchable. and the car battery and spot light idea is great. 

 

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add an ir illuminator otherwise monocular nods are almost useless. 

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8 hours ago, koschilein said:

Maybe I just think that way because I hate night maps in the game and mostly every MP first person shooter at the moment. I always goes down on gamma settings and feels like some people are cheating with that settings.

 

I think that NVG´s and the whole lights at night stuff is development time that could much rather be spend on other new systems and factions for the game. But as I stated that is my opinion.

 

EDT: Maybe I would be more of a fan of NVG´s if I had a better PC, because of how the shadows and lightning are rendered for me at the moment.

 

 

I'm sure the devs could find a way to lock brightness/gamma settings either at night or mid-match, no? Everyone should know by now that I'm against the devs intervening in issues that moderators can handle, but I do think that's an issue where the devs can and should step in directly. 

 

I disagree with what you say about adding "new systems and factions" completely. Great mechanics make a great game, not a ton of factions. War Thunder has tons of factions and tons of vehicles, but the devs have consistently released stupid "improvements" to game mechanics and have destroyed the player base of the game. ArmA III on the other hand, has consistently focused on improving core game mechanics, and while it might lack content (something I gripe about), I'd still play it any day over War Thunder. There needs to be a good balance struck up between making gameplay changes and making more content, and I think the idea that the devs could always just be "making another faction" or "more vehicles" is getting extremely tiring. 

 

8 hours ago, Squike said:

that system looks pretty good but could still be much improved upon,

 

like having outside the middle monocular circle as true color rather than just a darker version of the NV image, so that the IR lasers and stuff didn't carry across to the outside.

 

Also you should be able to use certain sights with NVG depending on what NVG model and Sight combo is used. 

 

The idea of having the monocular with holo sights is that the dot or holo should super impose itself on top of your vision, so you have 1 eye through the NVG monocular one eye through the holo and your sight picture should be the night vision circle with normal vision all around, with the red dot super imposed over the top of the whole lot.

 

It's not perfect, but it's a damn sight better than what many professional video games have attempted and accomplished. 

 

As for using certain scopes with night vision: I agree, but the list is short. Hell, isn't the ACOG listed as night vision compatible? I know that they work with a fixed PVS-14 in the front, but they definitely won't work with a head-mounted PVS-14. The reality of it is that if you choose to use NODs, you won't be able to use a majority of the sights issued to the Army, which is another, major drawback for the "modern" factions. 

 

5 hours ago, smokyhook said:

But does all of that(flares,NVGs,floods, etc) make the game better?


It adds replayability to currently existing maps, encourages teamwork on both sides (insurgents have to work together to set up night time fortifications, army factions can no longer shoot at long distances and are blinded by bright light so they have to work together to find secure paths that aren't lit up or patrolled by the enemy), and increases the overall level of realism and authenticity. I think it's been pretty well detailed why it would make the game better throughout the majority of this thread. 

 

12 minutes ago, Devon said:

add an ir illuminator otherwise monocular nods are almost useless. 

 

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the PEQ-15 will make it's way into the game. 

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Varenyky' , I'll meet you halfway - I'll agree that this would make the game different; I don't agree that it will be better.... in my opinion.

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22 minutes ago, smokyhook said:

Varenyky' , I'll meet you halfway - I'll agree that this would make the game different; I don't agree that it will be better.... in my opinion.

 

 

Thing is it would make a mode that is hardly in rotation or people exit out of when it comes on worth playing properly, and would negate the gamma exploiters that do exist at the moment.

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