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Stat tracking  

328 members have voted

  1. 1. 1.) Are stats good for us?

    • Stats are awesome in all shapes and forms. Shower me in stats!!
      120
    • Stats are useful, but some are harmful to the community. (Please describe the differences in a comment if you can.)
      124
    • Other. I can describe below.
      15
  2. 2. 2.) Where should the stats be used?

    • Everywhere! Shower me in stats!
      53
    • In a player database.
      83
    • In the forums.
      9
    • In-game, but not during a match.
      106
    • * In-game, but only during matches. (Note: See: http://forums.joinsquad.com/topic/2174-stat-tracking-ii/page-6#entry47072)
      13
    • Other. I can describe below.
      11
  3. 3. 3.) Who would be able to see them?

    • Everyone! Shower them in my stats!
      132
    • Only friends.
      26
    • Only me.
      39
    • Only officers. (Note: See: http://forums.joinsquad.com/topic/2174-stat-tracking-ii/page-6#entry47072)
      9
    • Only squad mates. (Note: See: http://forums.joinsquad.com/topic/2174-stat-tracking-ii/page-6#entry47072)
      6
    • Only commander. (Note: See: http://forums.joinsquad.com/topic/2174-stat-tracking-ii/page-6#entry47072)
      3
    • Other. I can describe below.
      9
    • Show me detailed stats about me, but restrict what others see about me.
      53
    • Only Devs.
      10


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If stats count the - k/d (Kill Death),

                           - KPM (Kills per Min),

                           - W/L (Win Losse),

                           - Accuracy

                           - SPM (Score per Min.)

or somting equal, that is harmfull to the community.

 

General stats but like below are fine, in my opinion. (all Numbers are random and just for show)

 

Playtime - Role

              - Squadmember

              -Squad Leader

              - Commander

              - Vehicle XY

 

Most used Weapon and  Tool.

 

506 captured flags

801 epipens used

204 Mines Deployed

71632 shots fired (no hit couter for the Accuracy)

23,709km Drived

.

.

.

your forgort the most important one:

fast roped 1337 times

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I appreciate this poll, as a simple "yes/no" vote is slightly lopsided. There are lots of things to consider when talking about stats, some of which I only learned about in the last few days. As for Squad, I strongly believe, now, that stats would probably be very harmful, pandering to people who want to play COD or BF style games. These shooters have been the bane of my gaming existence so far, and, having finally found a good, team-oriented project, I have to take a strong stance against anything that might jeopardize it.

 

However, I have read some comments that propose some statistics which I believe make sense. Squad is team oriented. So, how about letting the team decide, post-game, on who the most valuable members were? Like giving a star to a player next to his "Cooperation" title. Or "Leadership", or "Strategist" if you think the squad leader was a good person to have issuing orders. "Logistics", for that guy who didn't fire a single shot, but made sure that everyone was well supplied and informed. I think there might be some interesting dynamics to a system like this one, especially when you know that any stars in there were attributed by other players (clan and friends matches notwithstanding: in the long run, I don't believe "manipulated" stats would have that much of an impact).

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I appreciate this poll, as a simple "yes/no" vote is slightly lopsided. There are lots of things to consider when talking about stats, some of which I only learned about in the last few days. As for Squad, I strongly believe, now, that stats would probably be very harmful, pandering to people who want to play COD or BF style games. These shooters have been the bane of my gaming existence so far, and, having finally found a good, team-oriented project, I have to take a strong stance against anything that might jeopardize it.

 

However, I have read some comments that propose some statistics which I believe make sense. Squad is team oriented. So, how about letting the team decide, post-game, on who the most valuable members were? Like giving a star to a player next to his "Cooperation" title. Or "Leadership", or "Strategist" if you think the squad leader was a good person to have issuing orders. "Logistics", for that guy who didn't fire a single shot, but made sure that everyone was well supplied and informed. I think there might be some interesting dynamics to a system like this one, especially when you know that any stars in there were attributed by other players (clan and friends matches notwithstanding: in the long run, I don't believe "manipulated" stats would have that much of an impact).

 

You bring up a good idea, however, you do need to develop that system in a way that it cannot be abused, friends only giving their vote to friends, etc. making it the entire teams decision is a good idea. But once again, any system can be abused, its sad but true. But I do really like your idea, however once again I want to point out, do we really need these stats? PR was fine without it, I would prefer to make a name for myself by being a good transport pilot consistently. People will learn that I am a trustworthy pilot with time.

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I appreciate this poll, as a simple "yes/no" vote is slightly lopsided. There are lots of things to consider when talking about stats, some of which I only learned about in the last few days. As for Squad, I strongly believe, now, that stats would probably be very harmful, pandering to people who want to play COD or BF style games. These shooters have been the bane of my gaming existence so far, and, having finally found a good, team-oriented project, I have to take a strong stance against anything that might jeopardize it.

However, I have read some comments that propose some statistics which I believe make sense. Squad is team oriented. So, how about letting the team decide, post-game, on who the most valuable members were? Like giving a star to a player next to his "Cooperation" title. Or "Leadership", or "Strategist" if you think the squad leader was a good person to have issuing orders. "Logistics", for that guy who didn't fire a single shot, but made sure that everyone was well supplied and informed. I think there might be some interesting dynamics to a system like this one, especially when you know that any stars in there were attributed by other players (clan and friends matches notwithstanding: in the long run, I don't believe "manipulated" stats would have that much of an impact).

This idea that you could have a vote at end of round for who did best would never work because with 100 people theres no way anyone would know who did what and when without a stat to tell you who did what and when. Got to laugh here sorry. Something has to be tracked for a winner to be decided thats the nature of games, sports, and life in general, everything we do in life is measured in some way, if you play poker the best hand wins always and you know what, people cheat at everything too, thats life as we know it.

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If people are going to be lone-wolfing, no objective playing asses, they'll do it whether there are stats or not. Personal stats out of game would be nice as it's good to see some numbers on how you are improving as a player. Squad stats in game I'd be all for, re-enforces the squad focus of the game.

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This idea that you could have a vote at end of round for who did best would never work because with 100 people theres no way anyone would know who did what and when without a stat to tell you who did what and when. Got to laugh here sorry. Something has to be tracked for a winner to be decided thats the nature of games, sports, and life in general, everything we do in life is measured in some way, if you play poker the best hand wins always and you know what, people cheat at everything too, thats life as we know it.

 

Well, in Squad, there are these things called squads, which are a small group of people in close coordination with each other. These people work as a team throughout the course of a match, coordinating, via their Squad Leader, with other squads in their faction. While it would be impractical to rate every person's abilities in one's faction, it would be quite feasible to allow people to positively rate whoever they feel deserving, which would depend on how much coordination there was in that particular match.

The idea that "something has to be tracked for a winner to be decided" is proven wrong by this game in its pre-alpha stages: the winner is not decided by tracked stats, but rather by achieving the goals set for the team. There are matches out there where the winning team had fewer kills and more deaths than the losing team.

Using the poker analogy, the best hand is already proving to be team work.

As for people cheating, well, there's anti-cheat software and votekicks for that.

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This idea that you could have a vote at end of round for who did best would never work because with 100 people theres no way anyone would know who did what and when without a stat to tell you who did what and when. Got to laugh here sorry. Something has to be tracked for a winner to be decided thats the nature of games, sports, and life in general, everything we do in life is measured in some way, if you play poker the best hand wins always and you know what, people cheat at everything too, thats life as we know it.

 

Well, in Squad, there are these things called squads, which are a small group of people in close coordination with each other. These people work as a team throughout the course of a match, coordinating, via their Squad Leader, with other squads in their faction. While it would be impractical to rate every person's abilities in one's faction, it would be quite feasible to allow people to positively rate whoever they feel deserving, which would depend on how much coordination there was in that particular match.

The idea that "something has to be tracked for a winner to be decided" is proven wrong by this game in its pre-alpha stages: the winner is not decided by tracked stats, but rather by achieving the goals set for the team. There are matches out there where the winning team had fewer kills and more deaths than the losing team.

Using the poker analogy, the best hand is already proving to be team work.

As for people cheating, well, there's anti-cheat software and votekicks for that.

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While you make some good points and I would like to see those kinds of stats too, it would again, be used in a competitive stance, Its just how people are, you would see a trend in people building FoBs in needlessly dangerous areas just to get the "ammo resupplied" or "50.cal suppression" stats. Trust me, I wish we could have cool stats, it would be nice, but it would just, in my opinion, turn out like most stats do, after all stats are a measurement of "skill" in games, if you are good at resupplying, people can make even that competitive.

Its a shame, but its the truth as I see it.

 

Edit: One last point to mention, I know people like to make a point that Squad isnt PR, we get that, but take an example from PR, a lot of us have been playing PR for so many years now its a little crazy and we have never had stats, I can honestly say that I have never once wanted stats in PR. Its a game that I get into and think, right, my role is X, im going to do X as best I can. And it has never crossed my mind that I want stats to track that.

 

That's the point. If they build that FOB in a risky area then it may not last and could end up not being of good use, thus hurting their stats. On the other hand it could be placed in a risky area, defended well and make a huge difference. The stats will show us how useful it is.

 

On your last point I agree in part. When I play any game, either outdoor sports or on the computer I do not think of stats and just play for the sake of having fun. I do like to improve my game play and if I had someone keeping stats for me while I played baseball, which allowed me see what was going wrong with my hitting, or in Squad showed me that the statics I was placing were useless. I think that would be awesome.

 

In the end I think stats should be available but controlled by each server admin as to how they are displayed in game. I'm sure we are going to have tournaments and will have a standard way of displaying stats that are acceptable by the majority, whether it be individual stats or team / Clan stats. I ask that you do not kill the idea of stats based on what you have experienced with other games. Squad is not going to be like other main stream games, it is a game changer and makes new players change the way they play FPSs.

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Well, in Squad, there are these things called squads, which are a small group of people in close coordination with each other. These people work as a team throughout the course of a match, coordinating, via their Squad Leader, with other squads in their faction. While it would be impractical to rate every person's abilities in one's faction, it would be quite feasible to allow people to positively rate whoever they feel deserving, which would depend on how much coordination there was in that particular match.

The idea that "something has to be tracked for a winner to be decided" is proven wrong by this game in its pre-alpha stages: the winner is not decided by tracked stats, but rather by achieving the goals set for the team. There are matches out there where the winning team had fewer kills and more deaths than the losing team.

Using the poker analogy, the best hand is already proving to be team work.

As for people cheating, well, there's anti-cheat software and votekicks for that.

Kills and Deaths are tracked and determine ticket loss, one death represents one ticket so the idea that something has to be tracked such as kills and deaths is true. Sorry to give you the tough news. :)

Because I also wish the ticket system were not used because as you say winning and losing should be based soley on objectives won and lost and not on ticket system which does rely on Kills and Deaths stat.

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Edit: One last point to mention, I know people like to make a point that Squad isnt PR, we get that, but take an example from PR, a lot of us have been playing PR for so many years now its a little crazy and we have never had stats, I can honestly say that I have never once wanted stats in PR. Its a game that I get into and think, right, my role is X, im going to do X as best I can. And it has never crossed my mind that I want stats to track that.

 

My sentiments exactly.

 

And this is coming from a JOps gamer that had stats available...

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If the Devs even read this thread I hope they do put in stat tracking on one condition.They evaluate the behavioural influence of each statistics they choose for us to see. People will inherently measure and evaluate not only themselves but their peers against the stats. It's the very nature they exists. If we are going to measure and boast about stats, I would hope they fall into one of two categories:

 

A) Silliness: Total Km's driven, ran, flown, fall damage deaths, game time, etc.. 

 

B) Teamwork and Mission Oriented: Total Squad Points, # of Revives or Repairs, Supplies Delivered, Assets Shovelled, % of game time as each kit, etc..

 

Why?

Because it avoids this:

Ive never experienced K\D ratio stats hurting a game sorry and I got some extensive game time in BF2 and BC2. I just dont buy the complaints of k/d causing lonewolf behavior, Ive never seen it.

 

This is everything bad about a modern day shooter. It's ignorant, selfish, and uncooperative. And it's not just this guy, it's something that damages all of us the more time we spend in these AAA titles that track stats. He doesn't see it because he chooses to ignore it.  K/D influences an individual at the behavioural level. It's a measuring stick that breads behaviours like camping, grenade whoring, maximum effect weapon use regardless of situation, or misuse of team assets. Nobody needs to see how many kills they've racked up during game time, it only feeds the behaviour 

If the devs want to show # of kills in a match, have it only shown at the end of the match. Track deaths instead. Life is valuable in this game and it's an important metric to expose people intentionally bleeding tickets or not playing properly. 

Stats are a hot topic because it cultivates the behaviour of the community. If the player only has pointless stats and team based/cooperative focused stats to boast about then it inherently requires him to function properly as part of the team to get the dopamine dump from his personal satisfaction or boasting. This leads to a more immersive and fun experience for everyone involved, every game and they still get their dopamine. That's my two cents

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People seems in my opinion mix stats and gameplay scoring they are two different thing that overlaps a bit only on some edges.

 

The scoring system is as important if not more important to push players to play as a team than what stats are. If kills/deaths doesn't give you any points the most leethaxor player would still be the bottom of the rounds results by the fact he didn't do teamwork oriented objectives in game.

 

As an example these are gameplay scoring (from TDM server of JOps as an example) These are too much, since the number front of the players name is revealing the position on end scroring, which results bad behaviour in the game.

Jointops%2525202015-06-25%25252001-55-15

 

and it is based in these scoring rules:

Jointops%2525202015-06-25%25252001-55-36

 

These are random end of the round results (round scoring + stats) from some random and old 2008-2009 AAS round. Even on that list can be seen that teamwork counts and JOps scoring system weren't close to optimal to favouring the teamplay.

SS00037.jpg

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Kills and Deaths are tracked and determine ticket loss, one death represents one ticket so the idea that something has to be tracked such as kills and deaths is true. Sorry to give you the tough news. :)

Because I also wish the ticket system were not used because as you say winning and losing should be based soley on objectives won and lost and not on ticket system which does rely on Kills and Deaths stat.

I think you should attack ideas not people try explaining exactly how the tcket system works so people know that indeed kills and deaths effect tickets in a game. And therfore tracking kills and deaths does not cause anyone to be selfish stat biches in a game, which I have never seen happen, sure I seen idiots try to stat pad, they get kicked and banned if there is sgood admin.

Ask yourself are the stat padders trying to affect tickets to get a team win or are they really valueing their own stat over their Squads lives? I think some of those eventually kicked stat padders maybe trying to affect ticket counts to win match, and so people maybe confusing this with sefish stat padding?

So tickets maybe your stat padding culprit not stats themselves?

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People seems in my opinion mix stats and gameplay scoring they are two different thing that overlaps a bit only on some edges.

 

The scoring system is as important if not more important to push players to play as a team than what stats are. If kills/deaths doesn't give you any points the most leethaxor player would still be the bottom of the rounds results by the fact he didn't do teamwork oriented objectives in game.

 

As an example these are gameplay scoring (from TDM server of JOps as an example) These are too much, since the number front of the players name is revealing the position on end scroring, which results bad behaviour in the game.

Jointops%2525202015-06-25%25252001-55-15

 

and it is based in these scoring rules:

Jointops%2525202015-06-25%25252001-55-36

 

These are random end of the round results (round scoring + stats) from some random and old 2008-2009 AAS round. Even on that list can be seen that teamwork counts and JOps scoring system weren't close to optimal to favouring the teamplay.

SS00037.jpg

 

this ^

 

end of round stats like this should be ok, yes?

 

on the whole "Stats Mak'eth The Lone Wolf"; i dont agree its the stats fault at all. the fault lies in the way those stats are portrayed ie. leaderboards, unlocks and soldier ranking, are the reasons people go lonewolf and leave the team behind.  i have only seen this mentality ruin games that have these reward systems in place.

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Oh god, I just had a scenario play through in my head of me setting up a foB ready to build it up and defend a point that is slightly further back, a bit safer to spawn on etc, and something screaming at me through command chat (squad - squad) telling me that im wasting his support points by not letting him build it in "hot lz alpha elite bravo points-city"

 

THE HORROR!

1392829420853_zps8cu3ytgf.gif

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As long as there are stats, there will be people trying to farm them, whether they are kills or popularity votes. However, we must also allow for the chance that there are things worth keeping track of.

 

---

 

The votes from the poll are voice enough for their own arguments. What I hope to see is more of the difference between constructive stats and destructive ones, or other ways that people think stats should be managed.

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Bottom line I think is this, at least from my point of view. We really don't need any stats, have the end of game scoreboard come up, show the info that PR does, Score, Team Score, Kills, Deaths. Nothing more nothing less, gives those who like to be competitive the kills and deaths but doesn't allow them to be "tracked" as such. But I think its important that the Devs do get all the info they want/need. Let the stats be tracked, but keep them all behind closed curtains. We don't need them, its not what Squad is about. Cheers, Have a good one :D

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If the Devs even read this thread I hope they do put in stat tracking on one condition.They evaluate the behavioural influence of each statistics they choose for us to see. People will inherently measure and evaluate not only themselves but their peers against the stats. It's the very nature they exists. If we are going to measure and boast about stats, I would hope they fall into one of two categories:

 

A) Silliness: Total Km's driven, ran, flown, fall damage deaths, game time, etc.. 

 

B) Teamwork and Mission Oriented: Total Squad Points, # of Revives or Repairs, Supplies Delivered, Assets Shovelled, % of game time as each kit, etc..

 

Why?

Because it avoids this:

 

This is everything bad about a modern day shooter. It's ignorant, selfish, and uncooperative. And it's not just this guy, it's something that damages all of us the more time we spend in these AAA titles that track stats. He doesn't see it because he chooses to ignore it.  K/D influences an individual at the behavioural level. It's a measuring stick that breads behaviours like camping, grenade whoring, maximum effect weapon use regardless of situation, or misuse of team assets. Nobody needs to see how many kills they've racked up during game time, it only feeds the behaviour 

If the devs want to show # of kills in a match, have it only shown at the end of the match. Track deaths instead. Life is valuable in this game and it's an important metric to expose people intentionally bleeding tickets or not playing properly. 

Stats are a hot topic because it cultivates the behaviour of the community. If the player only has pointless stats and team based/cooperative focused stats to boast about then it inherently requires him to function properly as part of the team to get the dopamine dump from his personal satisfaction or boasting. This leads to a more immersive and fun experience for everyone involved, every game and they still get their dopamine. That's my two cents

 

I could not agree more with this statement. 

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As a veteran BF2:PR player, I am against stats. IIRC this game is gonna take the best from PR. And IMHO PR's philosophy is against stats itself. Maybe some stats that one can view while being out of game. But while being in-game the stats should be very minimal - just as they are in BF2:PR now. Only maybe it should get some tweaking (the now PR stats I mean) so the kills don't  get shown as soon as the enemy player gives up so the soldier who killed it doesn't have  a magic sense of knowing if he mortally wounded the enemy. I think kills should be represented, but after few minutes when the enemy gave up (didn't get revived), so it's not a TAB clicking fest. 

Also. One big thing that I really wanted to see in Squad, is the fact that one should have the possibility determine if a dead enemy really is dead-dead. Maybe only medic could do that? Or maybe every player could do that? E.g., If someones head is exploded or the enemy took a lot of bullets, one should see (when he comes next to him) if he's revivable or deaddead. This would make the game flow nicer as you could see if enemy is really dead, and one hidden medic wouldn't revive them all after you have moved on to the next flag for instance. 

 

What do you think about the possibility of determining if an enemy is wounded or dead-dead? I think it would make the "a bit gimmicky" medic system more realistic. 

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What if the tickets were not affected by deaths at all? It would make any kills/deaths in game irrelevent and make capturing objectives all important to win game. The drawback would be suicide type play for every objective, but this could be stopped by increased spawn times regulated by how fast you die between spawns, if you start dieing too fast your spawn times increase exponentialy. Or something that was suggested on the Value life thread might work.

Anyway offering an alternative system to ticket system which seems tied to the kills/deaths stat might make people or stat padders not care about this crucial stat anymore in the game. I really havent heard why this specific kill death stat being showed makes people abandon their team for lonewolf play. So tickets must be why?

And I do not think people are trying to be top of player list by having most kills would make people play lonewolf either, I think that is an unproven theory based on theory.

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Pleasantries... I'm a Squad Company Clan supporter.  BF veteran for most titles from 1942 to Hardline.  Just discovered the Squad project when a friend who's an Arma veteran mentioned it.  Very excited about going a new direction with Squad.

 

1) There's a happy medium 2) Some people will never be pleased 3) Your flavor changes if you try and please everyone.

 

I don't think you'll bring in new players as well without good stat tracking.  It's partially because people are vain, but partially because people want to find hacks, better and worse players, or see how they're improving using metrics that are commonly understood.  But a game based heavily on teamwork and realism shouldn't shower you with Individual stats unrelated to the team either.  It changes the ethos of the game.  So here's some ideas based off thinking toward a blank slate:

·         Base rank off of "total play time" X "points".  Use small numbers for points.  Make kills worth 1 point for example, and FOB construction/destruction worth 10.  The point being 10 kills is worth 1 FOB.

·         Allow everyone in a game to see all of that game's stats, for now and all time.  Have game reports like Battle Reports in BF.  Better also, have Battle Recorder with a client option to save to server so it's doesn't eat up my disk space.

·         Have privacy settings, something like, Clan, Everyone, No one.  Make it a 1 time option to choose when creating an account, always tied to that account.  Allow admins to limit servers to a particular type of player.

·         For Clans, have Founder rank, but have the clans run based on game rank.  Founders don't necessarily become the best leaders.  Set up positions within a Clan that require certain ranks which have some effect on and off the battlefield.  Let the hierarchy resemble realistic command structures where doors can open once a soldier gets enough points, if the brass think someone's ready.  We're talking a path from grunt to 4 star, based on game accomplishment and human oversight.  Let Clan members have station options, or the ability to choose stations for their best career path (How this particular part would translate into a game I'm not sure, the point is realism).

 

For me, the draw of Squad is huge maps and realistic gameplay.  Replicate that in the game and que sara, sara, but with a little luck, it'll be a success.  I think there's a hunger that the twitch shooter doesn't satisfy for more and more players.

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